EPISODE OF THE WEEK: SUITE SORROW

[Patcat]

Will air on the USA Network September 10 at 7pm EST.
12th Episode of Season 2. First aired February 2, 2003.

Written by Warren Leight and Rene Balcer

Directed by Jean de Segonzac

Guest Actors: Hal Linden (Ben Turner); Micheal Hayden (Kenneth Reyfield); Judith Roberts (Nan Turner); Amy Ryan (Julie Turner)

Repeat Offender: Leslie Hendrix as M.E. Rodgers

Synopsis: Goren and Eames investigate the death of a wealthy hotel owner and discover all is not well in the victim's family.

Quotes:

Carver: "The evidence against Julie lays out in a nice straight line. Juries like straight lines."

Goren: "What's one check, when you can marry the check book."

Salon Worker: "I'm not licensed to dispense botox."
Goren: "We've found that a lot of people do things they aren't licensed to do."

M.E. Rodgers: "Death by botox. Live slow, die old, and leave a good looking corpse."

Kenneth: "It wasn't an accident. Is that what you're inferring?"
Goren: "You mean 'implying'; the listener 'infers'."
Eames: "And detective 'speculate', since we don't know the cause of death yet."

Goren: "I know that anger."

Amazingly enough, I couldn't find a discussion thread for this excellent entry in the uniformly solid second season, or maybe I missed it (entirely possible).

Nan Turner appears to be at least partially based upon the recently deceased Leona Helmsley.

Warren Leight has been the subject of some controversy on this board since he became the showrunner. This shouldn't distract from the fact he's written some excellent episodes, including this one. Mr. Leight's episodes often concentrate on family dynamics gone wrong. Do other LOCI writers have themes in their scripts?

This episode features some several strong performances by the guest actors. Michael Hayden is a noted theater actor who made his first big impression playing Billy Bigelow in a highly praised revival of CAROUSEL. Hal Linden is memorable for his portrayal of the title character in the wonderful TV comedy BARNEY MILLER (which a lot of cops cite as one of the most realistic depiction of their lives), but he also started his career in Broadway musicals, winning a Tony Award for his performance in THE ROTHSCHILDS among many accomplishments. I must confess that my shock at Ben Turner's evil was increased by my association of Mr. Linden with Barney Miller. Has anyone else been disturbed by an actor's previous work? Has it hurt or helped your appreciation of the performance or story?

Is Kenneth gay? Bi-sexual? Mercenary? Is he a younger version of Ben Turner? Did Julie unknowingly choose a man just like her father?

Would Kenneth and Ben gotten away with their scheme if the detectives had fallen that "nice straight line" and pursued only Julie?

This is one of the nastiest and most unusual deaths in the LOCI world. Comments?

Did Nan Turner really expect Julie to be capable of handling the hotel business? If not, who did she expect to carry on this empire she clung to? Did Nan love the hotel more than Julie? Did Nan really protect Julie by buying off her lover?

Who is the most culpable--Julie, Ben, or Kenneth?

Is Kenneth guilty of any crime? Will he be charged?

Goren seems especially disturbed by this crime. Is it possible he identifies with Julie, perhaps too much? Does he see his mother and father in Nan and Ben Turner? Goren is very hard on himself in the final scene. Is he at fault?

Submitted for consideration and comments.

Patcat

[DonnaJo]

Great post, Patcat, for a great episode. ;D

To start, I have to say that I find the whole culpability issue regarding "Suite Sorrow" confusing. Yes, Kenneth & Dad (the wonderful Hal Linden) lied to Julie, deceived her, took advantage of her. They used her for their own selfish motives. And she had been hurt before, correct?

But the fact remains that she did deliberately kill her own mother, didn't she? The murder was calculated & planned. She injected her with a lethal shot of Botox & left her to drown in her own bathtub. I'm sorry, but I don't feel all that sorry for Julie. She was a very rich kid with a B***hy, domineering mother & a neglectful, selfish father. I can sure see her being screwed up, an alcoholic or drug addict, maybe even a promiscuous loser (Paris Hilton & Lyndsay Lohan come to mind) But a murderer, especially Matricide? Then when she uncovers the truth about her Dad, she kills him too? And Goren "understands that anger." Come on.

She was a nice looking woman who could have made a life for herself. Why didn't she go to therapy, like all the other screwed up rich girls? Spend a year abroad? My point is she had options.

Goren, of course, feels sorry for her. Sometimes I feel that his empathy is misplaced, like with the woman in The Faithful. It's almost as if views her crime as secondary to the father's & fiance's roles. I can see why Carver would want the "nice straight line" of Julie's role not tampered with. But I do give him credit for going along with Goren's idea to trap the Dad.

I LOVE the last scene, with Goren all guilty about what happened. Was our dear Detective ever really that close to wanting to actually kill one of his parents? And the scene where Goren deliberately looks away from Nan's dead body in the tub. We've theorized in the ep thread whether or not he was imagining his Mom dead, hence his obvious discomfort. Now, having seen Rita Moreno, I'm not so sure if that's why.

Another favorite exchange is in the interrogation room, when Goren is just about to really give it to Julie, he then stops himself & says, "No, it's too easy to get you to go on about your mother." It shows that he's above taking psychological advantage of SOME people. Too bad he didn't give the son in 'Cherry Red" the same courtesy.

[Techguy]

I'm surprised too that there is no prior discussion thread for this episode, although there is an already pre-existing poll which I have bumped for voting. I'm only online briefly so I'll post my comments later when I have more time to articulate my opinions.

[musicwench]

Really liked this episode. Thought it was well done and it gave us more insight into Goren's understanding of messed up families.


Warren Leight has been the subject of some controversy on this board since he became the showrunner. This shouldn't distract from the fact he's written some excellent episodes, including this one. Mr. Leight's episodes often concentrate on family dynamics gone wrong. Do other LOCI writers have themes in their scripts?

Sadly, I don't notice writing credits on most shows. Being a writer you'd think I would but generally that is one of the last things I learn about a show - guess I just don't pay enough attention to the opening credits.


This episode features some several strong performances by the guest actors. Michael Hayden is a noted theater actor who made his first big impression playing Billy Bigelow in a highly praised revival of CAROUSEL. Hal Linden is memorable for his portrayal of the title character in the wonderful TV comedy BARNEY MILLER (which a lot of cops cite as one of the most realistic depiction of their lives), but he also started his career in Broadway musicals, winning a Tony Award for his performance in THE ROTHSCHILDS among many accomplishments. I must confess that my shock at Ben Turner's evil was increased by my association of Mr. Linden with Barney Miller. Has anyone else been disturbed by an actor's previous work? Has it hurt or helped your appreciation of the performance or story?

I wouldn't say I'm disturbed by it but sometimes I'm surprised because the only thing I remember Mark Lin Baker and Neil Patrick Harris from are their respective sitcoms so when I see them give those most excellent performances on LOCI, I am amazed and impressed. Same with Hal Linden. This show seems to bring out the talents of actors I hadn't really thought of as serious actors.


Is Kenneth gay? Bi-sexual? Mercenary? Is he a younger version of Ben Turner? Did Julie unknowingly choose a man just like her father?

Lots of issues here. I think Kenneth was a mercenary for sure. Hard to tell if he's gay or bi-sexual since the only reason he was with Julie was to try and use her. It's not like he loved her.

She seems to choose men who are scoundrels who can be bought off. Hmm....perhaps that is a characteristic of her father after all. I think she seemed to have bad taste in men and a horrible judge of character. You'd think living all those years with her parents would give her a hint that something wasn't right there.


Would Kenneth and Ben gotten away with their scheme if the detectives had fallen that "nice straight line" and pursued only Julie?

There's a good chance they would have. I think they didn't count on the police digging deeper into the case once they got the person who was the actual murderer. Carver would have been quite happy to leave it at that so if it weren't for Goren being so persistent, they very well could have gotten away with it.


This is one of the nastiest and most unusual deaths in the LOCI world. Comments?

Matricide or patricide is always nasty business. This one does rank right up there with unusual and rather horrible when you think about it. I have a fear of being paralyzed and immobilized so it would probably give me a heart attack before anything else could kill me.


Did Nan Turner really expect Julie to be capable of handling the hotel business? If not, who did she expect to carry on this empire she clung to? Did Nan love the hotel more than Julie? Did Nan really protect Julie by buying off her lover?

Perhaps she hoped Julie would have children who would be able to do it? I don't think Nan Turner thought she would die, quite frankly. The whole Botox thing makes me think she was rather vain and thought a lot of herself.

I don't know if she realized she loved the hotel more than Julie if she did indeed love the hotel. I think she wasn't thinking about anything beyond her own time of life. As I said, I don't think she thought she would die so soon.

I think she did believe she was protecting her daughter by buying off her lovers. Especially those she saw as unfit. Apparently she was a better judge of character than her daughter was - well, her husband being an exception to that rule!


Who is the most culpable--Julie, Ben, or Kenneth?

Ben. He was the one with the most to gain and he was the one manipulating everyone. Kenneth and Julie were his pawns. He used their weaknesses


Is Kenneth guilty of any crime? Will he be charged?

I don't know enough about the law to know if he is technically guilty of anything. But he should be an accessory since he knew what Ben was trying to do and helped him to do it.,


Goren seems especially disturbed by this crime. Is it possible he identifies with Julie, perhaps too much? Does he see his mother and father in Nan and Ben Turner? Goren is very hard on himself in the final scene. Is he at fault?

I think Goren identifies with people who have parents who undermine you. Knowing his mother now after season 6, she does seem controlling and as self centered as Nan Turner. I think any father who puts himself before his children earns the 'wrath of Goren' as it were.

Perhaps because he identified with Julie he felt responsible for not seeing how far she would go. But because he would never do anything like Julie did - murder her own mother and then her father - no matter how angry he got, I don't think he is at fault at all. Not really being like Julie, the thought probably never entered his mind that she would kill her father. I don't think anyone in their right mind would anticipate that. Not even Goren.


Other notes on this episode:

While I thought his sympathy for Melanie Grasso and her family weren't necessarily misplaced - I personally think the children involved and the potential loss of a happy family for them were more his motivations than feeling sorry for Melanie - I do think his sympathy for Julie was a bit too much. There is only so much you can blame on your upbringing. At some point you have to stand up and find your own way. It's even easier if you have the money and means to do so and Julie did.

While I think of the three involved in this matter, she is the least guilty, I certainly don't this she was worth Goren's blaming himself for her actions.

Oh and one light note, I loved the exchange between Goren and Eames when he asked her a question about Botox and she asked in a very annoyed sounding voice if she looked like she would know. LOL I don't remember the exact words but it made me laugh.

[Techguy]

Mr. Leight's episodes often concentrate on family dynamics gone wrong. Do other LOCI writers have themes in their scripts?
The two most impressive CI writers to me are Marlane Gomard Meyer and Stephanie SenGupta--Ms. Gomard Meyer for her intimate personal renderings of characters, and Ms. SenGupta for her more amused detachment at the absurdity of her characters and their behavior.

I must confess that my shock at Ben Turner's evil was increased by my association of Mr. Linden with Barney Miller. Has anyone else been disturbed by an actor's previous work? Has it hurt or helped your appreciation of the performance or story?
I don't watch much TV so in most cases I don't think I see a famous guest star as either helping or hurting the story. I did watch "Barney Miller" years ago, but I didn't associate that character at all with Hal Linden's performance as Ben Turner, most likely because of the strength of the story and his performance. I had grave misgivings about Liza Minnelli's appearance in the Jon Benet Ramsey ripped story "Masquerade," but was pleasantly surprised and impressed by her subtle and understated poignant performance. On the other hand, while I have never seen an episode of "Everybody Loves Raymond" I've seen enought promos and ads with Doris Roberts as Mama Romano that I feel she was terribly miscast as Lady Harrington in "Privilege."

Is Kenneth gay? Bi-sexual? Mercenary? Is he a younger version of Ben Turner? Did Julie unknowingly choose a man just like her father?
Based on Kenneth's duplicitous behavior, I can't tell for certain what is his sexual orientation. But mercenary he is for sure, someone who can and has learned plenty from Ben Turner. I think one of the major reasons behind Julie's acting out her rage against her father in the finale is because she finally realized how she twice selected boyfriends/lovers who were exactly like her father.

Would Kenneth and Ben gotten away with their scheme if the detectives had fallen that "nice straight line" and pursued only Julie?
If not for the detectives' due diligence, especially by Goren, Kenneth and Ben would have succeeded. Whether Kenneth would have seen much of Nan's wealth is dubious, however. Ben Turner strikes me as the kind of person who is the epitome of users. Kenneth most likely would have been given a token sum for his silence--Kenneth couldn't spill the beans without revealing his own involvement in the scheme--and Ben Turner would indeed be the last one standing atop his late wife's fortune.

This is one of the nastiest and most unusual deaths in the LOCI world. Comments?
As sudden and surprising as the finale is, with Julie stabbing her father albeit offscreen, there is a certain poetic justice to the act--not because Ben Turner was the master puppeteer in the scheme and thus deserved what happened, but because he fell at the hands of a priceless artifact of Admiral Peary's Polar expeditions that Turner used as a letter opener.

Did Nan Turner really expect Julie to be capable of handling the hotel business? If not, who did she expect to carry on this empire she clung to? Did Nan love the hotel more than Julie? Did Nan really protect Julie by buying off her lover?
Nan Turner either didn't believe in Julie's ability to follow in her footsteps, or else was so controlling she intended to pass over Julie and leave everything to Julie's offspring. Nan was vain enough to believe she would live forever, or at least live long enough to see a grandchild produced from a union between Julie and a suitable husband. I don't think Nan was protective of Julie as much as protecting her own interests in seeing Julie matched with a compliant and submissive husband who will do his "duty" and provide Julie with a child and Nan with her heir.

Who is the most culpable--Julie, Ben, or Kenneth?
Ben is the master puppeteer, the mastermind behind the scheme to use Julie's weakness to trigger her rage to murder her mother and put Ben in the driver's seat to inherit Nan's fortune when Julie is implicated. This is not to say Julie and Kenneth are not guilty, they are especially Julie because she brutally murdered her mother with an lethal dose of botox and then vented her murderous rage on her father. Kenneth helped Ben set up Julie, but I'm not sure if the detectives can connect the dots in a straight line to arrest him.

Is Kenneth guilty of any crime? Will he be charged?
Kenneth is guilty of conspiracy for sure, and possibly an accessory before and after the fact. But as I said above, I don't know if there's enough evidence, other than the photo of Kenneth with Ben Turner, that would be sufficient for ADA Carver to indict him. Carver would have to prove Kenneth's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt at trial, so this aspect of the story is up in the air as far as I'm concerned.

Goren seems especially disturbed by this crime. Is it possible he identifies with Julie, perhaps too much? Does he see his mother and father in Nan and Ben Turner? Goren is very hard on himself in the final scene. Is he at fault?
In this case, Goren certainly seemed to overly identify with Julie and cut her too much slack in his zeal to open her eyes to the life her parents led. Given her history, it was unrealistic of him to expect Julie to maintain control when confronted with how her father and fiance had deceived her. I think Goren erred big time by allowing Julie, who he knew was prone to sudden bursts of violence, to confront her father alone and out of the reach of the detectives to intervene if anything went wrong. Goren gave Julie the knowledge of good and evil, and now has to live with the realization that he himself provided her with the forbidden fruit.

[ragincajun]

I will have to watch again before commenting, But one thing that really got me about this episode, Not sure if it was because the woman was naked, or old, that Goren had a hard time looking at Nan's dead body.

[ragincajun]

Warren Leight has been the subject of some controversy on this board since he became the showrunner. This shouldn't distract from the fact he's written some excellent episodes, including this one. Mr. Leight's episodes often concentrate on family dynamics gone wrong. Do other LOCI writers have themes in their scripts?

I must say I never really notice or compare the writers to the scripts

This episode features some several strong performances by the guest actors. Michael Hayden is a noted theater actor who made his first big impression playing Billy Bigelow in a highly praised revival of CAROUSEL. Hal Linden is memorable for his portrayal of the title character in the wonderful TV comedy BARNEY MILLER (which a lot of cops cite as one of the most realistic depiction of their lives), but he also started his career in Broadway musicals, winning a Tony Award for his performance in THE ROTHSCHILDS among many accomplishments. I must confess that my shock at Ben Turner's evil was increased by my association of Mr. Linden with Barney Miller. Has anyone else been disturbed by an actor's previous work? Has it hurt or helped your appreciation of the performance or story?

I try to just enjoy the story without bringing in his other characters, but its hard for some. I am sure after an actor plays a character for many years like William Shatner lets say to be known as anything else than Captain Kirk, or Tony Shalhoub I am sure will be known as Monk for a long time, and it may be hard to get parts after being type casted as such. Which is why some actors avoid TV series.

Is Kenneth gay? Bi-sexual? Mercenary? Is he a younger version of Ben Turner? Did Julie unknowingly choose a man just like her father?

I think Kenneth was an opportunist, and Ben took advantage of that, with promise of money, or a relationship, not sure if he was bi-sexual, they say women subconsciously go after men like their fathers

Would Kenneth and Ben gotten away with their scheme if the detectives had fallen that "nice straight line" and pursued only Julie?

yes, I think Goren's need to know more, is what lead them to Ben and Kenneth

This is one of the nastiest and most unusual deaths in the LOCI world. Comments?

unusual yes, nastiest, I am not sure. I mean getting your daughter to murder your wife is low. But poison still hits me as nasty

Did Nan Turner really expect Julie to be capable of handling the hotel business? If not, who did she expect to carry on this empire she clung to? Did Nan love the hotel more than Julie? Did Nan really protect Julie by buying off her lover?

I think Nan loved Julie more than the hotel, and would have left the hotel to her out of love. She knew how much the hotel meant to Julie, she tried to buy off Ken to protect Julie from finding out her Dad was gay. She was doing what she thought would protect Julie, but she didn't know Ken was going to go back and tell Julie.

Who is the most culpable--Julie, Ben, or Kenneth?

Ben, cause he started the ball rolling

Is Kenneth guilty of any crime? Will he be charged?

I think he is, but from what Carver said, they were going to get Ben. I think it was something like in "But not Forgotten" when Isobel asked if she was under arrest and Carver said what you did was Morally wrong but not legally wrong.

Goren seems especially disturbed by this crime. Is it possible he identifies with Julie, perhaps too much? Does he see his mother and father in Nan and Ben Turner? Goren is very hard on himself in the final scene. Is he at fault?
I don't think it was his fault, but knowing what we know now, his parents had an unhappy marriage and probably tried to act like they were happy. Like Goren said, what your parents say and what you see isn't the same or something like that.

[meggyd]

I loved season two of CI, but this was actually one of my least favourite episodes. Not because it wasn't clever, because it was very intricate in its twists and turns, but because it was unremittingly dark and the family had indeed gone completely wrong. Nan tried to do the right thing the wrong way. Everyone was playing everyone else. I found Julie quite repellant, and did not share Goren's remorse that she ended up in even more trouble. And her father certainly deserved what he got!

I found it difficult to gage Goren's attitude to Julie, and it seemed to change as the episode progressed. Indeed, I thought he was only fully genuine with his angst over her murder of her father. The "it's too easy" to make you react about your mother, I just took as another of his gambits as nothing would have made Julie madder than to think that people believed she could easily be manipulated, and that they felt sorry for her about it! Absolutely designed to make her spit out things in a rage. Another thing that made me believe he was still manipulating her despite his professed sympathy was his use of volume and tone - there are several times when he issues her commands, when he yells and then drops his voice back. He does tell her the truth when he says he knows what it's like to know that you are being presented with a facade and not the truth, but he was still working her to get what they needed, using whatever was necessary.

The retired cop that was the "house dick" was one of the most annoying characters on CI ever. I loved it when the Captain manipulated him out of his office so deftly and the little looks exchanged between the detectives after he left.

It took me several viewings to work out what Goren was taking the photos for in the restaurant. I initially didn't realise that he was taking a photograph of the register to show Julie as proof, I thought the camera was turned the other way and he was taking a picture of himself and the hostess, which would have been over the top quirky, even for him.

I did love Eames' reaction to Goren's question about the botox. Why did he assume she would know? The scene where she went "undercover" at the botox session was priceless - she looked gorgeous, and that silly woman trying to guess what procedure she used to get that way was hilarious. Though when the woman said "I'd kill for your skin" you got the idea that she perhaps might just be vain enough to do it!

[tjara]

Ok, this hasn't been my week. Four "new" (new for me) CI episodes and I didn't understand three of them on first viewing... jeez.

Still lots to like in this ep - Eames is true to form with her "I'd not know"-comment and the "Soap-and-water" comment later... Bobby playing darts with the botox injections was fun. And if you watch closely, it seems to be goofed, liked two shots spliced together, though I'm not 100% sure. Though at first that confused me altogether, because I though he was targetting his notes/binder, but it's some foam thingy...
All in all, I guess this ep has a lot of what we call "classic CI".

I might add that I suffer from bad migraines, too - I wonder whether Botox really is used to treat it? Will have to research that one...

"Death by botox. Live slow, die old, and leave a good looking corpse."

My favorite quote from that ep. Absolutely funny!!

Do other LOCI writers have themes in their scripts?

I havn't really paid attention. But I will look for that in the future. I noticed though that Leight wrote that ep when seeing it and honestly, when I realized that he had been on the show before he became the showrunner (I didn't know he was), I was ever so more angry that he wouldn't know such basic facts like Eames being a widow.

I've also noticed that CI features authors that have written eps for Cold Case, I'll look for more themes in the future... maybe we at some point should have a thread for that?

Has anyone else been disturbed by an actor's previous work? Has it hurt or helped your appreciation of the performance or story?

No - I didn't know him (Hal Linden that is) before that. Most of the time, I don't know CI guest stars. I guess it could be odd to be watching someone that you very much identify with a character... that's why so many actors stay away from TV-shows... sometimes though, especially when actors really are famous for just one role, it's amazing to see them do other stuff, because you really start to see how talented they are.

Would Kenneth and Ben gotten away with their scheme if the detectives had fallen that "nice straight line" and pursued only Julie?

Probably. But Goren never follows the lines, does he...
Especially since Julie wanted to protect both of them. I wonder though, if she had been given psychological help (for her obvious rage problem), whether it would've come out or not...

This is one of the nastiest and most unusual deaths in the LOCI world. Comments?

Hmmm. I don't know, I thought it was a rather "peaceful" death. Nan didn't/couldn't struggle at all. She just drowned... Slow maybe, but compared to some others... "The Faithful" comes to my mind, or "Baggage", or "Seizure" - and I'm sure I havn't seen some of the worst ones yet...

Did Nan Turner really expect Julie to be capable of handling the hotel business? If not, who did she expect to carry on this empire she clung to? Did Nan love the hotel more than Julie? Did Nan really protect Julie by buying off her lover?

I think she did think highly of Julie in terms of business, just not in taste of men. Being married to Ben, she probably had a radar for guys that were only out for her money. There probably was a good reason she had that clause about heirs (Julie's children) in her will...
No, ironically, if Nan wouldn't have tried to payoff Kenneth, nothing would've happened. That was really what caused Julie's rage...

It's interesting, in that ep everybody tries to play everybody, except for Julie maybe, and it goes so terribly wrong... in the end, Julie has killed both her parents - has killed both her "puppeteers"?

Who is the most culpable--Julie, Ben, or Kenneth?

It's never revealed how much Kenneth really knows, though I think at the beginning there's a scene in which he's supposed to be calling Ben? From seeing the ep I wasn't sure whether Ben manipulated Kenneth to manipulate Julie or whether they conspired to manipulate Julie (though I'm thinking the latter). I havn't really understood though what Kenneth's incentive was to help Ben, besides Ben being his lover? Ist that enough?

Is Kenneth guilty of any crime? Will he be charged?

I don't know law, but he could be up for some conspiracy charges...

Goren seems especially disturbed by this crime. Is it possible he identifies with Julie, perhaps too much? Does he see his mother and father in Nan and Ben Turner? Goren is very hard on himself in the final scene. Is he at fault?

I thought it was his fault or let's say, "their" fault. I was very surprised that they would leave Julie without backup to talk to her father, especially since they knew she was kinda unreliable and had rage fits. I know they thought she was ready, and Eames drops a "he deserved it"-comment, but I'm still very disturbed by the end. It's a major flaw on the part of the NYPD if you ask me... someone's gotta take responsibility, I'd guess. Maybe Deakins? Carver?

Someone's mentioned that Goren turns away from the bathtub and there was some discussion about whether that indicated a suicide attempt his mother might have undertaken. I guess one could say that, but then Goren had no trouble looking at Angie in "Jones". Maybe, if we assume to got ahead with the suicide attempt, then Nan could've reminded him of his mother, whereas Angie did not. It's still a little odd, though - both his behavior but also the "suicide-conclusion".

I think he identifies with Julie because they both had a rather dominant mother, but also because Julie has this kind of "uncontrollable" anger that I could imagine Frances had, and if Mr. Goren drank a lot - he might have had it too. I don't think Nan and Ben are similar too his parents, though. The main common feature probably is the "unwillingness" to accept reality. We don't know when Nan found out that Ben was gay, and it seems that they always kept a nice facade on the outside, but it crumbled underneath - Ben and Nan were playing each other. Also, Nan's parents probably suspected something was wrong with Ben and therefore kept him out of their will...
Anway, I would think that's something Bobby can relate too, Frances herself said that she used to play her husband, and I guess he did, too. So Goren has experienced this back-and-forth between parents. Also, I'm brooding on the idea that from when Bobby noticed "his mommy wasn't like other mommies" to Frances being diagnosed with schizophrenia, there was a considerable amount of time. This is supported by the fact that Mr. Goren walked out on his family around 1972. It's never really mentioned when or if they divorced (but I would think they did), and if Frances Goren got custody, she either wasn't diagnosed with schizophrenia yet, or if she had been diagnosed previously, mediacted well. From Bobby's statements it seemed to me to that there was a time in which his parents denied that something was wrong with Frances and maybe Mr. Goren only walked away when it became very obvious that something was very wrong? I don't know, but it's really food for thought...

[ragincajun]

will have to check on Botox for migrains, maybe that would get my insurance to pay if I ever need some, lol. But I take topamax, which in higher doses is used for seizures. I still get migrains, sometimes, but not as bad.

botox for migrains

Guess I will have to wait till they figure out the shots need to go around the mouth area too.

[Patcat]

Drowning, at least as the experience has been related by people who've survived near drowning experiences, isn't a pleasant way to die, although there is a reportedly peaceful acceptance near the end.

Patcat

[tjara]

ragincajun

Why thanks for the links!
Thankfully, I know how to prevent migraine without medication. I get migraine when my blood sugar gets to low, I don't trink or eat enough, so I always have breakfest. Also, when I know that I'll be out and about for a long day, like when I have doggy events, I make sure to have coke with me, contains sugar and caffeine. I need to sleep enough hours. And I need to watch what I eat: I try to avoid Histamin-rich food (red wine, certain kinds of apples, some kinds cheese, nuts, chocolate (contains nuts), "convenience" food - so pretty much everything you can buy and just put in the microwave...) I'm really at risk if I combine any of the above, like don't sleep enough and then don't eat breakfest... The histamine rich food usually will not bother me too badly, but it enhances my allergies, too.

Patcat
I wasn't trying to imply that drowning is pleasent. I have a somewhat near-drowning expierence from about 3.5 years ago. It wasn't too serious, but it definitely wasn't pleasant.

But with Nan, I'm not sure how much she noticed. She had taken drunken alcohol, taken sleeping pills and then was injected the botox.

I guess we shouldn't be comparing here - dying "involuntarily" (as in being murdered) is never pleasant.

[tjara]

From seeing the ep I wasn't sure whether Ben manipulated Kenneth to manipulate Julie or whether they conspired to manipulate Julie (though I'm thinking the latter). I havn't really understood though what Kenneth's incentive was to help Ben, besides Ben being his lover? Ist that enough?

Ok, I think I need to expand on this. I really don't get Kenneths motivation to help Ben. But they definitely conspired to set up Julie. I'm also not sure how much of the "business"-talk is real. Our main sources for Nan saying that Julie isn't good to take over are Ben and Ken. Their might be some truth to that statement, but I think they "enhanced" it a little, too...

[leanonme]

Kenneth's motivation is money right? I figured that Ben was cutting him in on some big cash.

[leanonme]

This is one of my very favorite episodes, and I can't even really say why.

I like Amy Ryan a lot in this. I thought she did an amazing job of making Julie human. Julie is really awful if you think about it objectively- she killed both her parents, she had even punched her mother in the past. She gave her mother what I thought was indeed an awful death. I think they wanted us to know that is was an awful death, with the description of her descending paralysis. But somehow, I felt a bit sorry for her, amused by her, and even slightly liked her throughout this - all the while wanting to see her go to jail. I think that is often how Goren sees criminals- in all their humanity.

I love the scene in Julie's apartment. I love the way they go after her, and I think she is great with them. Sometimes, when they provoke someone to anger, it can seem a little odd, but this really rang true to me. Of course, I just love the little bit with the dog statue - Goren picking it up and laughing at it, and Julie grabbing it and embracing it. I just thought they all worked well together.

The ending was some awesome, intense TV.