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Post by nwchimom on Oct 22, 2007 23:15:15 GMT -5
Yeah, I noticed it didn't make sense as transcribed. Substituting "they aren't" for "that Goren" makes a WHOLE lot of sense, especially after Smile. I think you're on to something. And welcome.
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noc
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 127
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Post by noc on Oct 22, 2007 23:33:01 GMT -5
Thanks for the insight, Tealb.
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Post by DonnaJo on Oct 23, 2007 8:37:51 GMT -5
Great research, Tealb ;D Yes, whoever transcribing this press interview didn't try to make sense out of quite a bit of what was said. However, If I may respectfully pose yet another interpretation? I thought what Erbe actually said was this: "We've just finished shooting it, and the final line really led me to believe (that Goren) isn't in as great (a) shape as I assumed." This kind of typo makes more sense to me because it's very minor, a few small words were misheard or mistyped. Not sure the transcriber would misinterpret a comment like "They aren't" to "That Goren." I took this to mean that we are now being led to the episode where Goren's mental health will be tested. It doesn't matter, really. The point you made so well, tealb, is that Erbe was misquoted & unfortunately she wasn't saying that Goren & Eames are going to be in great shape. There are more problems ahead for them. Both separately & collectively. And Eames "it's too late" line at the end was as it sounded, a bad thing.
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Post by DonnaJo on Oct 23, 2007 9:26:37 GMT -5
I also don't think that Eames has ever had effective grief counseling regarding the loss of her husband. We hold a bereavement group here where I work, and some members will join even though it's been 10 years since their loss, because they didn't deal with it at the time.
I see Eames' inability to deal with her own loss reflected in how she deals with Goren and his loss. She isn't sympathetic or worried about his tender emotions, as you would imagine she would. I think that's why we are all amazed & angered at her coldness - because we feel that Bobby needs extra compassion & understanding right now & Eames isn't giving it to him.
There is a "Creed" that we use in our group that applies here, for both of them actually. I'll post some of it, if that's OK:
PLEASE BE GENTLE
Please be gentle with me, for I am grieving. The sea I swim in is a lonely one, and the shore seems miles away. Waves of despair numb my soul as I struggle through each day.....
.....Please don't turn away or tell me to move on with my life. I must embrace my pain before I can begin to heal. Companion me through my tears and sit with me in loving silence. Honor where I am in my journey, not where you think I should be.
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Post by Patcat on Oct 23, 2007 10:00:09 GMT -5
I just noticed that Leslie Le Zard's name sounds like "lizzard". Not a bad name for a character who slithers around. The more I think about this woman the more I despise her. But a splendid performance by the actress.
And I have to wonder if by reading typos into transcripts we aren't getting just a little too obsessive (g).
Patcat
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nosee
Detective
Posts: 220
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Post by nosee on Oct 23, 2007 10:18:38 GMT -5
You think?
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Post by tealb on Oct 23, 2007 10:59:14 GMT -5
However, If I may respectfully pose yet another interpretation? I thought what Erbe actually said was this:
"We've just finished shooting it, and the final line really led me to believe (that Goren) isn't in as great (a) shape as I assumed." Actually, that's EXACTLY how I interpreted it until "Smile" aired and that last line from Eames was such a stunner. Then I went back and read Erbe's comments, and noted that "Smile" was the episode they'd just finished filming when the interview was done, and decided that had to be the "last line" she was referring to. And I don't really see now how that reflects on Bobby not being in "as great shape" as Eames assumed, as it does THEM not being in as great shape -- which was the question posed. This kind of typo makes more sense to me because it's very minor, a few small words were misheard or mistyped. Not sure the transcriber would misinterpret a comment like "They aren't" to "That Goren." Normally I'd agree there -- as I said, that was my first interpretation, but I've recently become acutely aware of my own "auditory processing" issues, and can easily see how that might be what someone decided she said if they couldn't quite make it out for various reasons (bad audio, people talking over each other...) and the words sounded muffled to them. From Patcat: And I have to wonder if by reading typos into transcripts we aren't getting just a little too obsessive (g).
GUILTY this time! But seriously, it bugged me that I kept reading comments from people who said that Erbe said Goren would be in "great shape" after the 3rd episode, or something along those lines, when I was just sure there was a typo in what she said, because it didn't make any sense! And now that we know what the last line she was referring to actually is, I can certainly see what she meant. I think she was thrown by it too! Thus their comments that they don't know where the writers are going with it! T
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Post by Techguy on Oct 23, 2007 15:15:26 GMT -5
Tealb, thanks for shedding light on how possible typos and/or misquotes could explain what Kathryn Erbe was saying about the final scene's G/E exchange.
And as long as we're evoking Nat King Cole songs for this episode, how about a double play of "Smile" and..."Mona Lisa"?
Leonardo da Vinci's Mona Lisa smile is ambiguous and cryptic because it changes depending on where and how the painting is viewed. I think the same thing is happening when we view the final G/E exchange in "Smile"--at least I think it applies in my case. I felt that G/E have been "off" since after last season's "Blind Spot," and that perception might influence my interpretation of the final G/E exchange in "Smile." Someone else with a different perspective on G/E might see their final scene in "Smile" very differently.
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Post by hannah on Oct 23, 2007 20:21:45 GMT -5
I also don't think that Eames has ever had effective grief counseling regarding the loss of her husband. We hold a bereavement group here where I work, and some members will join even though it's been 10 years since their loss, because they didn't deal with it at the time. I see Eames' inability to deal with her own loss reflected in how she deals with Goren and his loss. She isn't sympathetic or worried about his tender emotions, as you would imagine she would. I think that's why we are all amazed & angered at her coldness - because we feel that Bobby needs extra compassion & understanding right now & Eames isn't giving it to him. There is a "Creed" that we use in our group that applies here, for both of them actually. I'll post some of it, if that's OK: PLEASE BE GENTLE
Please be gentle with me, for I am grieving. The sea I swim in is a lonely one, and the shore seems miles away. Waves of despair numb my soul as I struggle through each day.....
.....Please don't turn away or tell me to move on with my life. I must embrace my pain before I can begin to heal. Companion me through my tears and sit with me in loving silence. Honor where I am in my journey, not where you think I should be.It's hard to give someone sympathy when they blow up in your face every time you try to comfort them. I just don't think that's fair. After he told her to back off, can't you see her being a little scared and intimidated to try and comfort him again? That will just push him away. IMO it's not fair. It's not her responsibility to comfort someone who doesn’t want it. She's a detective not a therapist or a mind reader. She doesn’t know when he wants to talk about it. I have a friend who gets defensive whenever I ask what’s wrong. It’s so unbelievably frustrating because I don’t want to seem like I don’t care, but I also don’t want to smoother them. It’s hard to find a happy middle. I'm always on the edge when it comes to comforting my friend. It’s so nerve- racking and stressful. So I can’t blame her for having that attitude.
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Post by DonnaJo on Oct 24, 2007 7:43:39 GMT -5
Holly, I KNEW I was in trouble when I saw that you had answered my post about Eames! ;D
Just kidding! LOL. Don't be upset of you are. I really do like Eames. I guess it's the "mommy" in me that expects Eames to put aside her own feelings & take care of Bobby, even when he sometimes makes it difficult. Having two sons & a husband, I'm used to it.
Patcat pointed out back a few posts that we all put our own feelings & experiences onto the show & it's characters. You have too, telling your story about your defensive friend. Thanks for sharing that, BTW.
In all fairness, however, that scene at the elevator in TWAH didn't really show Eames being all sweet & sympathetic to Goren and him lashing out in spite of that. She was pissed with him, saying "What the HELL was that!" and "Do you want to throw it all away?" When she did try to change tactics & be sympathetic, he cut her off. Maybe because he was expecting yet another reprimand from her & wanted to stop it?
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Post by Patcat on Oct 24, 2007 8:17:35 GMT -5
Eames was rightly angry with Goren after their confrontation in TWAH, but he was apologetic in the episodes after that. In ENDGAME, he left to see Brady and was very calm when he told Eames he had to go alone.
Goren and Eames have been through a lot in the last year, and I believe that it's natural for them to be on shaky ground. I'd be more concerned if they were pretending everything is ok.
Patcat
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untitled
Detective
Stuff the Fluff! Save Goren & Eames!
Posts: 274
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Post by untitled on Oct 24, 2007 12:50:14 GMT -5
First of all I have to say; That was the worst intro to a CI episode that I've ever seen. (yes even worse than Bombshell's). It makes those music video sequences look like gold. I remember watching the trailer for this episode and thinking that's one cheesy actress, even though they didn't use one of those particular shots from the trailer in the episode she still came across as way too over the top. I felt this episode was just a rehash of things from the past, nothing really new. From the new Nelda (or Nestlie...ha I like that one) to the over the top actress threating her child. Yes it was very SVU like, especially that famous storyline of SVU's; where one person gets killed then they abandoned that storyline for another case. (usually unrelated) And that ending seems way too contrived and just thrown in there for shock value. I felt it was a cheap shot that was completely unnecessary. Now I'm not saying that things are hunky dory with them, but what the hell? I felt it, in a way kind of Out of Character for Eames. In the way that Eames was honest was true to her character but OC in where did that come from? As many of you have mentioned she'd never expressed ambition to move to a higher position, and even stated that she hadn't taken the job to be noticed. She even states in ITWSH, that she'd retracted that infamous letter and felt he was a moral person and a good officer. I believe if Eames truly felt he was holding her back she would have left him. I don't mind them having spats but this one just doesn't make sense to me. I don't get this G/E connect in one episode then take a step back in another. And for that matter, What is up with this sudden pity Goren crap? We know that Goren has a rep for being unconventional but it's never been played this low before, not even last season. I sincerely hope we aren't going to see this in every single episode of CI. It makes it sound like they got the idea from a 12 year olds fan fiction story. On a side note: VDO looks like he shed a few pounds. Gaffigan's character reminded me of his character in "Dead" (the mounted inhaler). Seems he wasn't suited for his job at the FDA either. - He was better at playing a clown pedophile on SVU. 4 nicole episodes. Anti Theses Person of Interest Great Barrier Grow - You might even count Slither, though she was never actually in the episode. I thought the whole Nicole Wallace thing should have ended with Grow. Now, I'm not a fan of her's but I thought Grow was a brilliant episode and that wallace should have been left with that episode.
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Post by ragincajun on Oct 24, 2007 16:55:42 GMT -5
But then would you count. Renewal, just at the mention of her name?
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Post by hannah on Oct 24, 2007 17:27:51 GMT -5
Holly, I KNEW I was in trouble when I saw that you had answered my post about Eames! ;D Just kidding! LOL. Don't be upset of you are. I really do like Eames. I guess it's the "mommy" in me that expects Eames to put aside her own feelings & take care of Bobby, even when he sometimes makes it difficult. Having two sons & a husband, I'm used to it. Patcat pointed out back a few posts that we all put our own feelings & experiences onto the show & it's characters. You have too, telling your story about your defensive friend. Thanks for sharing that, BTW. In all fairness, however, that scene at the elevator in TWAH didn't really show Eames being all sweet & sympathetic to Goren and him lashing out in spite of that. She was pissed with him, saying "What the HELL was that!" and "Do you want to throw it all away?" When she did try to change tactics & be sympathetic, he cut her off. Maybe because he was expecting yet another reprimand from her & wanted to stop it? Oh I do seem to come off as Eames' Rep sometimes don't I?! ;D I understand your point about being motherly (well I can't understand 100% because I'm not a mother), but I also just don't picture Eames as the maternal type. I see her as the totally cool Aunt I guess I'm so defensive about her because I'm the same way. I'm terrible at comforting people and I act the exact same way she does. I do usually end up pushing people away when I try to sympathize with them. I feel stupid doing it because I have absolutely no confidence in myself when it comes to that. When I was young and had a problem, the response was basically "get over it, there's wars going on in some countries, you'll live." For example my friend's father died and I didn't say anything. I was clueless and I felt like he had already heard everything I could possibly say. You know; "I'm sorry" "I know how you feel" "I'm here for you..." And I think we know that Goren's response wouldn't be very friendly I also feel that if I was in that situation I wouldn't want pity. Pity wears you down until eventually you start pitying yourself, which can make you so depressed because thats all you'll focus on. Like Eames, I might come off cold, but really I just feel awkward and nervous. I don't think she can express herself and it may be linked to how she felt when people felt bad for her after her husbands death. She said after Joe there wasn't a place for her and it might be because everyone felt uncomfortable around her. Maybe too much pity. Later my friend told me that the pity from everyone really bothered him. Suddenly he had all these friends just because he lost someone and they felt bad for him. Those types of friends usually never last because they're just there until the sympathy wears off and then they're gone and all their friendship ever consisted off was depressing topics and whenever you looked at them all they did was give you a pity frown. (you know? the sad smile? ) Also you could go another way entirely; becoming addicted to the attention. A friend of mine is a compulsive liar. She'll lie about death for attention if she has to. In TWAH I noticed Eames comforting him the whole episodes; covering for him, asking how he is, how his mother is and then he makes them look bad in front of the victim's father and the new captain. Eames just had enough of his coldness after all the things she did for him. Keep in mind that she was comforting him for probably weeks, even if the episode was only one hour. It had to be incredibly frustrating. Her patience just wore down. I'm sorry for the long story. I know I was all over the place. BTW I'm not upset DonnaJo!
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noc
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 127
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Post by noc on Oct 24, 2007 18:46:02 GMT -5
I just didn't think the comment was THAT awful at the end of Smile. To me, who is often a "gray" person, she was just stating the facts. He looked hurt and was probably expecting something snarky, fun, or reassuring and...warm is the word I'm looking for. She is such a straight, no nonsense character and she just seemed to be stating the facts. It would have helped to see her face, and maybe his look of hurt explains what her facial expression was.
I finally remembered something about Bowen triangulation which I won't go into now. But, maybe after being emotional in Amends, she was rebalancing back to her comfort level by being so matter of fact vs. warm & intimate?
Like Holly, I may be projecting (hope that's what you meant Holly). My impression is that Goren and Eames have the typical dance of intimacy - drawing closer during some difficult times & cases and then reestablishing some distance. It's pretty normal. My impression is that a lot of female/male teams have a kind of 2nd marriage approach to their partner. There's an intimacy in terms of "being real" that is more like a brother/sister if all is working right. And, sometimes people say things to create distance when they are emotionally vulnerable. I'm reading that into Eames. Of course, I'm probably wrong since i keep on referring to the female character is this episode as Leslie.
I just keep thinking back to a close friend who was a cop and a SWAT guy. He was very, very close to his male partners. They share everything. And, sometimes they fight like brothers but they don't let anyone else mess with their partner. So, maybe there's a little distance with Eames. This might really concern Goren because he depends on her so much. He has said that a lot, and he had been difficult to deal with during his mother's last few months. She couldn't be distant with him until now, and maybe she just needs a little distance to rebalance after her kidnapping, her revisiting Joe's death, etc.
I'm sure it was put in there for the fans to fret over, and I understand why there's some concern about it. I'm hoping that it's just adding depth to their relationship.
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