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Post by Techguy on Oct 21, 2007 20:42:59 GMT -5
No matter how much I try, I just can't put a positive spin on the final G/E exchange. It's bothered me a lot, much more than I expected it to. So I'm going to throw out this thought for consideration, that what we see and hear at the end of "Smile" is somehow connected to last season's premiere episode "Blind Spot." I posted on several occasions how G/E didn't seem quite right--they seemed for the most part out of sync--after this episode, and I have been trying to figure out why.
Is it possible Eames blames Goren and their partnership for her kidnapping? Eames was kidnapped--and almost murdered--by Jo Gage because Goren and Eames are partners. Jo wanted to frame her father Declan for Eames' murder, to get back at him for ignoring her and showing favoritism and affection toward Goren. In addition to suffering residual effects from the kidnapping itself, could Eames also be sub-consciously harboring some anger and resentment toward Goren that finally came out when provoked by Leslie?
*Techguy, ...just...trying...to...connect...the...dots...*
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spits
Detective
Posts: 224
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Post by spits on Oct 21, 2007 21:41:50 GMT -5
The ending still doesn't sit well with me either. As much as I try to take the statement at face value, it still bothers me. Maybe, Techguy - it certainly seems plausible to me as it has been a very stressful year (to say the least) for both Goren & Eames. Things have to come to a boiling point sooner or later, I suppose.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Oct 21, 2007 21:41:58 GMT -5
No matter how much I try, I just can't put a positive spin on the final G/E exchange. It's bothered me a lot, much more than I expected it to. So I'm going to throw out this thought for consideration, that what we see and hear at the end of "Smile" is somehow connected to last season's premiere episode "Blind Spot." I posted on several occasions how G/E didn't seem quite right--they seemed for the most part out of sync--after this episode, and I have been trying to figure out why.
Is it possible Eames blames Goren and their partnership for her kidnapping? Eames was kidnapped--and almost murdered--by Jo Gage because Goren and Eames are partners. Jo wanted to frame her father Declan for Eames' murder, to get back at him for ignoring her and showing favoritism and affection toward Goren. In addition to suffering residual effects from the kidnapping itself, could Eames also be sub-consciously harboring some anger and resentment toward Goren that finally came out when provoked by Leslie?
*Techguy, ...just...trying...to...connect...the...dots...*
People over time change. Eames of past seasons wasn't interested in advancement, at least that's what she claimed "I didn't take this job to be noticed". The crime solving and being on the front line held her interest. After being kidnapped and almost killed, could she have re-thought her position on moving up in the department. Being behind a desk would make her more vulnerable political wise but certainly safer than being on the street. Remember, she has a child now. It may be her sister's but she did bear it and probable has strong emotional ties to it. Maybe she now wants to be around long enough to see him grow up. Perhaps she has just grown weary of the chase. Whatever the reason/s, she seems to have entertained some thoughts as to being in "management" so to speak. (I am basing this opinion on her delivery of the answer to Goren's question) It would certainly be better financially for her to move up. Maybe she wants to leave some mark on her world other than "she was a good cop" or "she was the whackjob's senior partner". Bobby seems to be the lightning rod for controversy legal and/or media. She has over the years with him had to brush off the fallout from his run ins with authority types. She has also had to come to his defense or deal with his unorthodox methods and explain his behaviors. Their case solving rate is high, but at what expense? Her sanity? Her security? Her career? Maybe she is at a point in her life where she wants to move on to something else in the department, whether that be a move up or merely a move to a different unit and being partnered with Goren has made that impossible. She has already stated that Goren doesn't deal with change well and she feels torn between what she wants/needs and what effect her leaving for another assignment would have on Goren. It could all boil down to her choice of loyalty or self fulfillment or self preservation.
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Post by gorensdoppelganger on Oct 21, 2007 22:22:02 GMT -5
She has already stated that Goren doesn't deal with change well See, I don't know where this remark came from as well. He got along fine with Bishop, he didn't fall apart, they learned how to get along, and they solved their cases. Also, he got along fine with Mike Logan. I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said diablodeblanco, my issue is with the writers and producers. I just don't find enough evidence to support this statement made by Eames, and the ones I already commented upon in my last post.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Oct 21, 2007 22:40:23 GMT -5
She has already stated that Goren doesn't deal with change well See, I don't know where this remark came from as well. He got along fine with Bishop, he didn't fall apart, they learned how to get along, and they solved their cases. Also, he got along fine with Mike Logan. I'm not disagreeing with anything you've said diablodeblanco, my issue is with the writers and producers. I just don't find enough evidence to support this statement made by Eames, and the ones I already commented upon in my last post. It has been a while since I've seen the Bishop episodes but I think I remember their working together was rather herky jerky and awkward. Kind of out of sync. I think Goren put effort into keeping things running as smoothly as possible but there was a certain disconnected movement about their working relationship. Almost like watching someone very uncoordinated trying to dance. (The kick dancing that Elaine did on Seinfeld comes to mind) Maybe over time Bishop and Goren could have pulled it together and smoothed out the "dance" but Goren had gotten a little exasperated with Bishop at times during the episodes. Almost to the point that he seemed to be investigating the case on his own with Bishop merely trailing along. Like I said, it has been a while since I watched those episodes so if I remember it wrong, please excuse. Also Goren knew that working with Bishop or Logan would be temporary and that Eames would be returning. That could have been enough for him to get him through the different partnering without a major problem.
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Post by hannah on Oct 21, 2007 23:27:45 GMT -5
I thought she was a hardass then! The moment called for some tenderness (even though she was considerate of him earlier in that ep) and the man just needed his space, not a crime when you are upset. When she called him in she wasn't simply disregarding Goren's feelings. She was nervous about calling him. Goren sad something like "no, its right that you called" and you could tell he was trying to dismiss her guilt. You can't blame her for acting like that either because of the way he's exploded at her in the past when she starts to caring too much. (in Goren's view.) It's not that she doesn't care about what's going on in his life (she's probably one of the view.) , she's just trying not to show it. Silently watching.
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Post by DonnaJo on Oct 22, 2007 8:06:40 GMT -5
The possibility that Eames blames Goren for her abduction in Blind Spot is certainly plausible. It may be subconscious (the logical Eames knows it wasn't Goren's fault), but add that horrific experience to an already hefty list of times being Goren's partner has been problematic, and top that list with a recent feeling of isolation from the rest of the NYPD, and you get the exchange in Smile. I took Eames' comment to Ross that Goren "doesn't do well with change" as opportunistic. She was grasping at everything she could to get her way and stay on the case. Not to mention that the Goren of today, older & painted more unstable & vulnerable, probably couldn't handle a new partner, and both Eames & Ross know that. Holly, I think maherjunkie was referring to TWAH elevator scene, not to the scene in Amends?
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Post by Patcat on Oct 22, 2007 8:39:34 GMT -5
I think I'd be more worried about both Goren and Eames if they weren't having some reflections on their lives after all they've both been through in the past year. But I have a more sanguine view of Eames' last line. I take "It's too late" to mean that Eames has made her choices, she's ok with them, and she'll deal with them. And Goren's actions in the first two stories of this season have been completely professional. He's at a point, however, where he needs some reassurance occasionally, and I'm not sure Eames has picked up on that.
Several of the Bishop episode were on last night on Bravo. It never was an easy partnership, but she eventually came to work reasonably well with Goren. At the conclusion of HAPPY FAMILY, for example, Bishop works extremely well with Goren.
Mr. D'Onofrio and Ms. Erbe have assured us things are going to get better with Goren and Eames, and I'm going to trust them with that until I see differently.
And re. Leslie--I still don't see any attraction on Goren's part towards her. He might be sympathetic when he first thinks she might be a whistleblower, but the minute Staci reveals the truth about Leslie, Goren is on her case.
Hey, and Staci is a well written and acted character. I had her pegged as the bad guy, but in the end she, and the unfortunate whistleblower, were the heros of this story. Both the script and the actress did a very nice job of not tipping their hands.
Patcat
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Post by Patcat on Oct 22, 2007 8:51:45 GMT -5
Ok, I'm thinking too much this morning.
I don't think Leslie ever gets anything right. She misreads Shorr, who cares enough about his company's reputation that he wants the truth to come out. She misreads her boss in thinking he could kill someone. I don't think she understands the whistleblower and his commitment to his work. She misreads and dismisses Staci, the secretary who puts the nails in Leslie's coffin. And I think she completely misreads both Goren and Eames. I think Leslie's attack on Goren and Eames is a lashing out at them for discovering the house of lies that Leslie's life and career were based on. Leslie believes everyone is like her, a desperate career climber. I don't think that she can understand anyone who does his or her job because he/she loves it.
Patcat
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Post by Summerfield on Oct 22, 2007 9:49:41 GMT -5
It was if she deemed them unworthy to arrest her.
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Post by criminalist on Oct 22, 2007 12:48:18 GMT -5
I have to say that what Eames said and the way she said it was definately out of line,okay Goren is '' an aquired taste" but he always solves the case.She had no right to put all the blame on him,how convenient to blame your short-comings on someone else instead of accepting the resposibility for your own actions. She forgot he solved her husbands murder pretty quickly.Her advancement, or lack of same is for her superiors to decide,she had her chance at a new partner (remember the court scene in the episode ''In the wee small hours'' she praised Goren then and blames him now.I saw a woman taking out her disappointment at her lack of career advancement on a man who has always been there for her,it made her look petty and I say shame on her.
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Post by DonnaJo on Oct 22, 2007 17:47:39 GMT -5
Leslie believes everyone is like her, a desperate career climber. I don't think that she can understand anyone who does his or her job because he/she loves it. Patcat Leslie is a smart cookie. Even though she could care less about the death of the children, she pegged Goren as someone who would. Her subsequent remarks about calling if any more kids were harmed was the perfect way to obtain Goren's trust & admiration. Did anyone think Ross was being sarcastic during this exchange after the FDA people left Ross' office: Goren: "Leslie seemed like the odd man out. Like she's worried more kids may die." Ross:"Point well taken Detective." IDK, it sounded like Ross was being a tad sarcastic to me. In the same way as Ross saying "Good interview" to Goren after he interrogated the boyfriend in "Blind Spot."
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noc
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 127
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Post by noc on Oct 22, 2007 18:01:14 GMT -5
I'm entering late in the discussion, I took Eames comments of it's "too late for that" to also mean that she made her choice a while ago and stuck by it. It's a typical insensitive INTJ comments (Meyers-Briggs, Briggs-Myers) who are practical people who are supposed to pair up with someone more sensitive. I did take it as rude, but I took it as her saying "that's the facts- it is what it is" when a different response would have been much better. After seeing Amends three times now, I saw that she is very stubborn & has been impacted by major events in her life. It seems to be more under the surface than Goren. There were things (looking over the evidence box by herself) that shouldn't have been done. It will bother me if she is turning on Goren with her talk of "he doesn't like change", but I thought that was discussed in the Bishop case (it was the 2 owners of a computer game company where one killed a young "gamer") when Goren sort of wailed "Eames would have known" about the similarities to the Wally case. He got used to Bishop but he was so happy when he got the call about the baby and left Bishop to do the paperwork.
I agree that Leslie did her research on Goren and Eames and considered them beneath her. Leslie also misjudged Staci, whom I also thought was the bad guy at first but actually was just expressing her dislike of Leslie. Leslie wasn't too subtle in the business card double handout, and Goren & Eames discussed that she appeared to care about the children's deaths more than the two old college buddies. It was typical LOCI that the opposite was true at the end.
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nosee
Detective
Posts: 220
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Post by nosee on Oct 22, 2007 19:49:38 GMT -5
[Did anyone think Ross was being sarcastic during this exchange after the FDA people left Ross' office: Goren: "Leslie seemed like the odd man out. Like she's worried more kids may die." Ross:"Point well taken Detective." IDK, it sounded like Ross was being a tad sarcastic to me. In the same way as Ross saying "Good interview" to Goren after he interrogated the boyfriend in "Blind Spot." I have to say that I think I must be getting used to Ross. Because that interaction with Ross didn't bother me. I've seen enough of Ross to know that is how he is. Or should I say that is how he is towards Goren. I hate to admit it but I think I am liking Ross more and more this season. I loved the episode. I reminded me so much of the old CI. I was happy until that last scene with G/E. And from what I can tell I'm not the only one. What I have accepted is that what she said isn't out of character for Eames. She has always been blunt and forthright with her opinions and she has always been honest with Goren on how she has felt when asked directly. What was missing was the snarkiness (if that is a word). She seemed very harsh. Which we aren't used to her behaving with Goren. That's what I am still finding very unsettling. nosee
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Post by tealb on Oct 22, 2007 23:05:39 GMT -5
OK, this is my first post on this forum, but I just HAVE to post this somewhere, because I haven't seen anyone else comment on it. I know most of us have read the LONG interview with D'Onofrio and Erbe -- the joint interview/press conference they did with lots of reporters -- it was apparently done the last week of September, just prior to the October 4 season premiere . Many people on this board and others have examined one statement from Kathryn Erbe re. the Goren/Eames partnership, particularly because she made a point of referring to the last line of the 3rd episode, which she said they'd just finished filming. Looking back at episode info posted on this board, the episode they'd just finished filming was "Smile", making "It's too late" the line she was referring to. Here's the interview excerpt: Joshua Maloni: ... And Kathryn, looking at the season preview, I mean Bobby and Alex are both going through some pretty heavy circumstances. How is that going to affect them individually this season and how do you think that’s going to affect (their) relationship?
Kathryn Erbe: You know, I don't know. We just did - we just finished hour of the Goren and Eames’ third episode for the season. We’ve just finished shooting it, and the final line really led me to believe (that Goren) in as great shape as I assumed.
And so I don't know. I have no idea what - and I don't think Vincent does either, because they really…
Kathryn Erbe: …don't tell us where we’re headed, and we have no idea what’s going to happen.
Vincent D'Onofrio: Yes, it’s true. I mean we have to - we can only play what's written.
Here's my problem: this line makes no sense. We’ve just finished shooting it, and the final line really led me to believe (that Goren) in as great shape as I assumed. This line obviously wasn't transcribed correctly. There is a word missing, or the words in parens aren't supposed to be "that Goren". Personally, I think that the words she probably said were "they aren't" -- as in "We've just finished shooting it, and the final line really led me to believe THEY AREN'T in as great shape as I assumed". Anyone else see this? She's answering a question about the Goren/Eames partnership, and she's commenting on this line that has so many in an uproar now -- I think she was thrown by it too. And then she goes on to give her opinion about their relationship, and while acknowledging the "It's too late" ending, says: "and this is probably still true, no matter what -- the way this episodes ends" I - my personal feeling was that they were - they had been through, you know, all this stuff and have come to another place -- a place of much more - I mean this - and this is probably still true, no matter what - the way this third episode ends -- that they have a lot more respect for each other, they rely on each other a lot more. They’re much more of a team and they know each other a hell of a lot better because their (wounds) are more apparent. I just wanted to post this and see if anyone else noticed that this section of the interview with Erbe seemed to be missing a few key words, especially in light of the fact that many of us wonder exactly WHAT THE HECK Eames meant when she said THREE LITTLE WORDS: It's too late.!!!!!!!! T
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