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Post by quietfireca on Jul 24, 2008 11:07:21 GMT -5
After a second viewing, the playfulness did really look a bit flirtatious. Bobby trying to get back into Alex's good graces. Even as a neutral party (where "shipping" is concerned), I think it was cute. And it sure seemed like Alex was eating it up. Flirting, eh? That dog! Alex wants him back in the game. She was probably stunned at his huge smile as he came through the back of the blade box, so began watching him, then encouraging him by relaxing her demeanor, then completely relaxing and delighting in his play. None of this was at the expense of catching the bad guy. They sobered up instantly when necessary. Like when Goren realized Carmine was in the doll house. Her smile faded as his expression changed. (Delightful to rewatch, I might add ) My favourite scene (today) is when he has the pot in both hands and very deliberately walks over to her*, waits till she's paying attention and pops the trick. *what is he thinking? a) she'll like this - so she'll start liking me again b) I know how this works, I can do it. This is fun and I just have to share it! c) Do I dare do this? or will I get the cold shoulder? I seem to be dining on a lot of that lately..... d) none of the above Oh, come on, we know it's a) and b) AND c)
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Post by deathroe on Jul 24, 2008 11:38:24 GMT -5
Heh, I took this more as "I can't" go undercover.
Maybe Goren's disapproval of Carmine also came from his being a peeping Tom? Or what about how he was handling deadly knives drunk? All sorts of possibilities ...
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Post by quietfireca on Jul 24, 2008 11:55:26 GMT -5
And I got it as There's not a hope in heck that I could go convincingly undercover with these guys and not drink. But did we see him drinking once he started working?
I think you're right Deathroe - it's a combination of the whole package. After the initial annoyance, I think Goren appreciated Carmine's escape from 1PP. Boy, I bet he was happy to walk away from Ross reaming out the young cop.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jul 24, 2008 12:46:43 GMT -5
After I make this post I am ducking for cover!! Goren trying to get back into Eames' good graces reminds me of a puppy that has piddled on the floor and is now attempting to convey his "my bad" to the angry owner. The puppy approaches the owner with his head down, in a non threatening posture and shows subordinate behavior. He is willing to endure the verbal chastising and even being grabbed by the scruff of the neck and disciplined without protesting. When it is over the puppy usually frantically wags its tail and dances around the owner as if to say "see, I am a good boy, please let me back in your good graces". Let the stoning begin!!!
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Post by DonnaJo on Jul 24, 2008 13:00:10 GMT -5
You don't have to duck from me! I was the one who said Goren was fawning over Eames, remember? This is what I was talking about in terms of Goren reverting back to hero status. That's hard to do when you are worried about pissing off your partner. I just hope that now the "puppy" will be forgiven, and will get back to growling at the bad dogs! ;D
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Post by ragincajun on Jul 24, 2008 13:06:43 GMT -5
I agree with you and Donna, he is playing to Eames' ego, I am waiting for her to say, Ok enough is enough, cause I am sure she sees it for what it is. Unless she loves seeing him grovel and play to her. Cause I hate it when my husband does that to me when he is in the dog house. I wake up in the morning my hair is a rats nest my eyes all red and puffy, my face is broken out cause its that time of the month and he looks at me and says, your so beautiful. Yeah right!
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Post by quietfireca on Jul 24, 2008 13:56:04 GMT -5
You're brave! But you've said what I was thinking!!
That's exactly what he was doing, but I don't think he could help himself, he was dying to play (and desparately needs to, although he probably wouldn't recognize it).
I love the head bowed and the way he walked over to her.
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Post by deathroe on Jul 24, 2008 13:57:23 GMT -5
No stones per se--but I don't see anything especially non-heroic about realizing that there are more important things in life than work and work-related posturing. Treating someone you care about well, for instance. Maybe he just really feels like he's screwed up and has begun to realize how important she is to him.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jul 24, 2008 17:01:57 GMT -5
No stones per se--but I don't see anything especially non-heroic about realizing that there are more important things in life than work and work-related posturing. Treating someone you care about well, for instance. Maybe he just really feels like he's screwed up and has begun to realize how important she is to him. What I am saying is that he did screw up, knows that he screwed up and is looking for a way to make it up to Eames. The way that he is trying to make up for his past behavior towards her is what I find interesting. What also comes to mind is the scene in Pretty Woman when Julie Roberts and Richard Gere walk into the shop and the manager falls all over himself sucking up. He even goes so far as to compliment Gere on his looks. Now Goren hasn't gone to that extreme but the method is the same. It makes for some uncomfortable watching at times. Eames seems to allow him to do this "amending". Is she trying to hammer home her point or perhaps she is hammering Goren just a little because he deserves it?
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Post by deathroe on Jul 24, 2008 17:28:12 GMT -5
Right--I myself would see "hammering" as a little strong. I don't read Eames' blowup in "Betrayal" as her letting him have it, pure and simple--more as her letting him have it because she was freaked out. I don't see rancor in the times she brushes him off--just that she is overwhelmed by her emotion, and it comes out as anger. Parents and lovers do that a LOT, in my experience--not that I am saying that they are either to each other, but the relationship strikes me as analogous in terms of its emotional depth.
Neither Goren nor Eames strikes me as especially good at dealing with their most profound emotions, which is what I think they have for each other. I am not saying this is a romantic relationship--but I know that, in my own experience, the people I've had the hardest time expressing myself to or making amends to were the people that I cared about the most. I see that happening here. That strikes me as why their behavior has been coming across as so awkward and jarring. How one reacts to Goren's "fawning" or "flirting" depends, I think, on whether or not one would find that behavior charming oneself. I think myself when I have been in a situation like that, I might not be pleased with its every outworking at the level of emotion or preference. But at the end of the day, you can't wish that a person would show love or forgiveness or emotion the way that YOU want; you have to take what they are capable of giving. I think that the attention that Goren is paying to Alex right now is very much what he is capable of giving, and it marks a transition from the man who was so focussed on his father figures and on getting his job back that she literally may have dropped out of his line of emotional vision ("Blind Spot"), important as she patently is to him.
Which is why I found the way he was showing off to her in "Vanishing Act" more affecting than not, tbh. It was certainly more subtle than if they had had a "relationship talk." I know I'd have been squirming during that *g*
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Post by quietfireca on Jul 24, 2008 19:31:15 GMT -5
But at the end of the day, you can't wish that a person would show love or forgiveness or emotion the way that YOU want; you have to take what they are capable of giving. Wow.
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Post by quietfireca on Jul 24, 2008 20:02:52 GMT -5
Which is why I found the way he was showing off to her in "Vanishing Act" more affecting than not, tbh. It was certainly more subtle than if they had had a "relationship talk." I know I'd have been squirming during that *g* Now that I've gotten over that profound quote.... I'm looking forward to more of this subtle fawning. He hasn't done enough yet to reassure her that history won't repeat itself. After all, isn't that what she has nightmares about? She lost a husband to a gun and almost lost a partner, who she probably knows better than the husband, by her own hand. That's a lot to recover from. That puts me on to another thought. Have we nailed down why he thinks he's in her bad books? She's giving him the cold shoulder because he thinks (here we go again with the multiple choice) a) she's still PO'd that he didn't tell her he was undercover and she's unappreciated? b) that she's freaked because she could have killed him and all that entails. Does he realize how important he is to her? or does he have no clue, so that b) wouldn't occur to him? I'm thinking (and hoping) we'll get "apologies" a little bit at a time rather than a "relationship talk", as you suggest Deathroe. I'm not keen on squirming, either. But, we are doing some heavy duty eavesdropping, so we shouldn't complain about what we hear! How come I go to do a short little post and it turns into a half hour epic?
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eames47
Silver Shield Investigator
"What are they saying now???"
Posts: 173
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Post by eames47 on Jul 24, 2008 20:03:39 GMT -5
I haven't read through this whole thread, so forgive me if someone already brought this up, but...
After watching the episode, ok for the fourth time, I noticed in the scene where Holiday brings up Eames' relationship with a man who has betrayed her......at the beginning of the scene, Goren is showing her a card trick where he has the cards fanned out down his arm. He is smiling at her, she is smiling at him, its a great moment. Holiday enters with the girl from his show, and Goren has to stop the card trick and his interaction with Eames. Then Holiday mentions the betrayal. Look at Bobby. Once he is reminded that he betrayed Alex, he looks back down at his cards, remembering that just minutes before, he and Alex were connected and content with each other. It's almost as if he saddens at the loss of the connection he had with her, and desperately wants that back. He thinks that the mere mention of his betrayal will cause Alex to forget all the progress their relationship has made, just since the beginning of this case.
VDO uses his props (the cards) very well in this. I was impressed. I tend to think that this was a choice on the actor's part and not the writer's.
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Post by outerbankschick on Jul 24, 2008 20:18:13 GMT -5
Interesting observation, Eames47. It actually hurts me to watch that scene. (Yeah, I know...I'm too emotional about this!) The moment Bobby drops his head and his eyes go sad, I get mushy. That scene is absolutely filled with silent words.
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Post by deathroe on Jul 24, 2008 20:23:39 GMT -5
Eames47, that is but a fabulous observation. quietfire ... I don't know the exact chemical composition of the Eames/Goren relationship. I agree with you that what we are doing is eavesdropping. But I can't think of another relationship on the franchise that is so intense. They wouldn't be acting this way if they didn't care. Something of a cliche, but as Ben Stone says in Season One of TOS, "all cliches are true."
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