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Post by deathroe on Jul 23, 2008 8:43:03 GMT -5
I took this as a detail we were thrown to help in assessing the old man's capacity for/motivation for murder. As such, I didn't think it was too bad: I have certainly missed those little details.
It was obvious that Hairston appreciates the show and how it has historically been, which at this point strikes me as a nice change.
Equally--what I have been finding on a re-watch--is that the Goren sleight of hand is a sort of a sleight of mind on/ interaction with Eames. If you watch them, you realize that what he's doing is showing off to her--flirting, almost--as a way of getting back into her good graces. TI'm not writing this as a diehard shipper; it is definitely there if you go back and look for it. The plot would admittedly be great without it, but I think this interaction gives it an added dimension. Pandering it might be, but it's really pretty cute.
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Post by Patcat on Jul 23, 2008 12:10:27 GMT -5
I think the only audience that matters to Goren is Eames. (And I'm not arguing for any romantic feelings between the two.)
I would certainly have enjoyed more scenes with Carmine than what seemed to me to be the overly long demonstration of Dean's mindreading act.
Patcat
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Post by DonnaJo on Jul 23, 2008 13:28:48 GMT -5
Equally--what I have been finding on a re-watch--is that the Goren sleight of hand is a sort of a sleight of mind on/ interaction with Eames. If you watch them, you realize that what he's doing is showing off to her--flirting, almost--as a way of getting back into her good graces. TI'm not writing this as a diehard shipper; it is definitely there if you go back and look for it. The plot would admittedly be great without it, but I think this interaction gives it an added dimension. Pandering it might be, but it's really pretty cute. Hmm....you are right, as is Patcat's astute comment that the only audience Goren really cares about lately is Eames. It seemed that winning her over took precedence over the case. Hence the "unBobby like" attitude about the old magician that DB mentioned. Sadly, now what seemed so cute to me really isn't - it's more like fawning. In earlier seasons, Goren's keen mind would have been all over every minute detail. The magic would have been a tool to trap or nail a suspect, not impress Eames with. Life (and the job) for Goren was simpler way back, when Eames was tailored by the writers as more his aide than his senior. I mean, how can he be the genius again when he will worry (justly or unjustly) about her taking it the wrong way?
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Post by Patcat on Jul 23, 2008 13:46:20 GMT -5
Well, I like the more equal relationship between Eames and Goren--I really think it's always been there, it's just the focus of the stories is demonstrating it more. And I think it's a healthy sign that Goren is careful of Eames' feelings. I'd argue that even in the early days both of them were at their best playing to each others' strengths.
Patcat
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Post by deathroe on Jul 23, 2008 16:17:09 GMT -5
DonnaJo, this point is well taken. But maybe what's happening is that he's starting to realize that she IS more important to him than the job per se. That it may have been a mistake to shut her out? Even lone wolves and geniuses need family. For these reasons, I find the "fawning" or flirting (it is definitely there ... blame the actors) more touching than not. There's this almost childlike quality of "look at me! I know how to do this!"
I don't know who was more responsible for Goren's "flirting with Eames," trying to win her back, through the magic tricks: the actors or the writers. But it does strike me as a relatively quiet (subtle) and ingenious way to show that process happening.
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Post by dragonsback on Jul 23, 2008 16:43:46 GMT -5
As a leg-up for the audience, I didn't think we needed it to scratch Carmine from the list of suspects. From the start, when the body ends up on his doorstep, so to speak, Carmine wasn't even a red herring, just a wonderfully diverting contrast to the superstar techno-Magician.
My real objection to the line , though, was that its mild contempt seemed way out of character. Goren has always been so non-judgemental about down-and-outers. Carmine is shabby but proud, and vodka gets him through the pain of it all. Goren has encountered a fair few similar types along the LOCI way, but he's never been so aggressively blunt about such sad failings.
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Post by outerbankschick on Jul 23, 2008 17:09:34 GMT -5
Maybe Frank's addictions and on-again-off-again rehab moments, and the memory of his father's alcoholism and gambling have finally jaded Bobby a bit. He may have started wondering if those "down-and-outers" are keeping themselves that way instead of facing the truth and getting help. Not that Carmine was doing that, but if Bobby's been worn down by the addicts and drunks in his own family, it could be getting harder to find the sympathy needed for someone like Carmine. Just a thought.
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Post by dragonsback on Jul 23, 2008 17:17:24 GMT -5
... I find the "fawning" or flirting (it is definitely there ... blame the actors) more touching than not. There's this almost childlike quality of "look at me! I know how to do this!" I don't know who was more responsible for Goren's "flirting with Eames," trying to win her back, through the magic tricks: the actors or the writers. But it does strike me as a relatively quiet (subtle) and ingenious way to show that process happening. Could be, could be. Me, I had a really left field reaction to all the Goren-Eames interplay. I thought I saw the light of real life seeping through the curtain. When Goren is playing with the props, and he and Eames are laughing, it seemed as if the two actors had relaxed into the moment as themselves. No need to focus quite so hard on the dramatic moment, no slabs or dead husband's artefacts. There was a spontaneity about the whole thing, no script directions ( Eames laughs gaily here) Donna remarked earlier on Goren's pressed-together hands and little bow as being a VDO thing off-stage. Now, I swear that Goren acted a lot like VDO does when D'Onofrio comes to Australia, and does interviews. Not fawning, but making an effort to be winning. He's not childish, but he is open and eager to please, unguarded in the moment. (the Rove Live clip over at the Reel captures some of this). He's really 'cute', as in lovable, when he does it.
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Post by dragonsback on Jul 23, 2008 17:47:59 GMT -5
Maybe Frank's addictions and on-again-off-again rehab moments, and the memory of his father's alcoholism and gambling have finally jaded Bobby a bit. He may have started wondering if those "down-and-outers" are keeping themselves that way instead of facing the truth and getting help. Not that Carmine was doing that, but if Bobby's been worn down by the addicts and drunks in his own family, it could be getting harder to find the sympathy needed for someone like Carmine. Just a thought. And a good thought, OBC. I did think about that connection. Butbutbut I can't see how Goren would suddenly shift. His ghastly family have been ghastly for a very long time. Goren SR was a recreational boozer, and dead lo these many years, and Bobby was still pouring drinks for alcoholically-challenged women in one episode or another. If he were so bothered by drunks, he would have behaved differently over 5 seasons. Frank was a druggie and a gambler from early years, and a mooch to boot. Has been a deadbeat from the time we first hear of him in the series. Now, Carmine doesn't do a backstroke in the Smirnoff bottle for amusement - it's a painkiller that lets him work, not a good-time Charlie thing - and he still manages to keep a roof over his head and scratch out a living with his dusty illusions. He's old and overtaken by time, he's out of fashion, and out of hope, but he still gets out there, and stubbornly battles on. "Old drunk" is a label that could be attached to him, but it's shallow. Goren's always been written with depth.
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Post by deathroe on Jul 23, 2008 18:12:05 GMT -5
That could very well be also. But I always feel like what they do is pretty careful in terms of being in character. The "light of real life" could come almost from them wanting G and E to be reconciled or in sync more than the writers have been writing it.
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Post by outerbankschick on Jul 23, 2008 20:04:52 GMT -5
After a second viewing, the playfulness did really look a bit flirtatious. Bobby trying to get back into Alex's good graces. Even as a neutral party (where "shipping" is concerned), I think it was cute. And it sure seemed like Alex was eating it up.
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Post by dragonsback on Jul 24, 2008 3:05:25 GMT -5
The one scene that's missing from this episode that begs to have been included is the one between Carmine and the cop before Camine escapes 1PP, not showing the actual escape of course, just the setup of what went on between the two characters when Carmine was in his jail cell. Not only would this have given us more screen time for Christopher Lloyd, it would have provided the opportunity for the sly crafty magician to distract the cop AND the viewing audience and put one over on both.
Absolutely, and I second that fine notion. And you know what I also would have loved to pieces? A final Carmine appearance somewhere in the script, where he pulls a trick on Goren - and Bobby doesn't know how it works. Would have really liked to have seen Classic Goren give the old maestro a little bow
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Post by Patcat on Jul 24, 2008 8:27:33 GMT -5
Well, when I watch a repeat I'll look carefully at Goren's interaction with Carmine, but it seemed pretty matter of fact to me. Goren certainly didn't approve of Carmine's drinking, but he wasn't condemning it either. Just stating the obvious. And Goren seemed to like the man's audacity.
Patcat
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fuzzytweetie
Silver Shield Investigator
Bobby's version of the "hokey pokey"
Posts: 153
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Post by fuzzytweetie on Jul 24, 2008 8:52:12 GMT -5
I'm just glad to see "old" Bobby again!! The interaction between G/E was priceless. Both lightened up for this episode. The smirks, smiles and innuendos were long overdue.
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Post by DonnaJo on Jul 24, 2008 10:08:58 GMT -5
Well, when I watch a repeat I'll look carefully at Goren's interaction with Carmine, but it seemed pretty matter of fact to me. Goren certainly didn't approve of Carmine's drinking, but he wasn't condemning it either. Just stating the obvious. And Goren seemed to like the man's audacity. Patcat I'll throw something out there sorta left field. Could Goren relate a tad with the old man's use of booze to get through the night, and that was why he didn't look to elaborate the idea or take advantage of the old guys weakness? We did see him at the bar in "Purgatory," and the assumption was that is was a place he frequented while on suspension. He also commented to Ross that he was afraid to quit drinking cold turkey if undercover. I don't think he's using alcohol as a panacea now,but he might have been then. What I mean is, could empathy explain the "un-Bobby like" exchange between Goren & Carmine?
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