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Post by annabelleleigh on Jun 30, 2009 2:43:54 GMT -5
Among others here, I am an admirer of well-written, thoughtful essays on CI and the G/E relationship, so I say: Keep it coming Irene. Yours was a meaty read.
That said, I'll add that I disagree with your analysis on almost every point. Here's why: Many of your interpretations are based on a false assumption. You fail to perceive that almost every statement, every "personal" reference made by Goren or Eames to a suspect or a witness is a lie, a scam, a manipulation devised to elicit information or a confession. Over eight seasons the changing roster of writers has made this abundantly clear.
Therefore "married liars" are not Eames' "special torture" no more than Goren regards professional women as "ballbusters." Indeed, Goren's bar scene with Mulroney is an act -- one of hundreds played out in similar scenes over as many G/E episodes. Deception is the signature G/E modus operandi. It's the way these characters investigate crimes. There's no deeper truths to be read between these lines (about the G/E relationship) because the lines themselves are meant to be improvised lies.
Also: I am continually astonished by the notion that a man and a woman could not have a long-term professional relationship that blossomed into friendship but not romance. In fact, I find it offensive in what that idea supposes about both women and men. Except in the imaginations of some fans, there has not been a scintilla of obvious sexual tension between Goren and Eames in nine years.
As for other points in your essay, in particular regard to "Lady's Man" -- I'm sorry, but I just don't hear the line readings the same way you do, Irene. For example, when Eames says that she and her husband rented a place on City Island "after we were married" I hear no puritanical emphasis on "after." It's simply a factual statement.
I also don't interpret any of Mulroney's father's statements as contradictory. It's clear to me that he's describing a son who rejects strong women who think independently -- women who (unlike his late mother) don't stand by him unquestioningly. The implication is that he spent all those hours in a bar listening to the newly-widowed Eames because he misperceived her as a potential helpmate who would support him in any way needed to win his case. Just as he could count on his formidable mom. When he lost he felt betrayed.
I could go on and on but I think that's enough for now. Perhaps I'll have further comments at another time. But Irene, do understand that I appreciated your post even if I don't agree with your conclusions. You made me think -- always a welcome thing.
AL
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Post by caitlen on Jun 30, 2009 2:58:43 GMT -5
Disclaimer: This represents my opinion and my opinion only. Feel free to rip, shred, or ignore. I do this as a writing/script development exercise. Thanks for letting me indulge myself. Oh, and if it’s too long and not okay, just tell me and I won’t do it again. .............................. OMG, do it again! Now! I'm saving this for when I need a good dose of Goren and Eames and a belly laugh! Disclaimer: This represents my opinion and my opinion only. Feel free to rip, shred, or ignore. I do this as a writing/script development exercise. Thanks for letting me indulge myself. Oh, and if it’s too long and not okay, just tell me and I won’t do it again. Would it be too much to ask for you to indulge in this exercise of writing/script development for every past and future episode? ;D I have so enjoyed reading your comments of the last several days. Thank you for sharing your insights. I love your writing style and wit. I am a fan. Play it again Irene, so refreshing, thank you
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Post by tjara on Jun 30, 2009 4:29:23 GMT -5
Okay, I think I'm ready to say something, I'll try not to dwelve into things unnecessarily, however, I have the strong feeling this isn't yet complete or completely thought through. I think I'll have to amend later. Especially with Irene's Post there's so much to think about, since I don't think I agree on all counts.
I think this was a great episode. No matter which way or how far you want to take it, it was about the G/E relationship. For me, it wasn't overly shippy (and no overt shipper moment, not even THE question as Bobby wasn't jealous). I didn't see the romantic angle, but I did see that Bobby truly and deeply cares for her. I think that's why he asked the question: He needed to know just how involved she was and if there were hard feelings between them. And then I think he got the "weirdo"-vibe from Kevin and wanted to know whether he seemed "normal" in that respect, too.
I enjoyed the references to Wheeler, Nicols and - though I don't watch the Mothership - McCoy. It's nice to let us now it's all one universe once in a while.
I seem to be the only one that didn't like the shove. I think it was so un-Bobby. I realize this might be a side-effect of not having seen Blind Spot yet, but Bobby usually mentally disarms the perps, not physically. He'll only go physcial if needed. He could've simply held the guy and let Eames take over.
Bobby is back! YAY. I loved him playing drunk, and I loved im playing the bartender. And I think that scene distracts from what it's about due to the shipper angle. This is not about Eames drinking hard drinks or Goren acting funny about it (I'm sure he knows, he's seen her down martinis). This is about the perp drinking wine, just like he does in the later scene. If you will, Kevin is displaying the "female behavior", just like when his closets are all orderly.
I really enjoyed the bit with the father and I liked how Goren reacted to the Mommy-statement, because you could see him digesting that. I also liked the humor in it and it seems to me that Kevin's mother dying was what set this whole thing off. I got the impression that Kevin's parents raised the kid to have "two halfs". The father wanted him to be "a guy", while the mother "softened" him. It seems Kevin was torn between his parents and that's where he developped that split. When he fell in love with Eames, I guess it was due to the fact that she acutally manages to console these halfs. She struggels, too, but I think he saw in her what he wanted to be. And then their relationship went south after the case.
It's interesting to know that Eames moved after Blind Spot (a few people have suspected that).
I liked the aria and how Bobby wanted to keep her from being there and getting hurt. He genuinely looked out for her in the whole episode and that was very, very nice. Bobby is a natural "care-giver".
I was a little surprised that the old case didn't get solved. There was no conclusive evidence one way or the other. And I suspect this was one of Eames first cases with MCS, because she worked Vice before MCS and she said it was the first case she did after Joe died. I think the tape said 5/12/99, so Joe probably died late 1998. It seems Eames allready was with MCS then, but maybe she hadn't been there very long when Joe was shot.
That's it - for now.
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Post by DonnaJo on Jun 30, 2009 7:39:37 GMT -5
Irene, feel free to write away on any & all threads. I love a good post, and yours was very well thought out and beautifully written. I also wondered why a 10 year wait for vengeance? The death of Kevin's mother is very vague. It didn't seem like it had just happened, since the Dad said that he hadn't seen Kevin in awhile. And I thought the use of the obsessively ordered closets was overdone. Twice was too much (a huge clothing closet in the DA's office?) Now if there were a few women's power suits in one, that would have been interesting. Let Kevin explain. The man hands! LOL. A reminder of a Seinfeld episode, where Jerry is grossed out by his current girlfriends huge hands. Anyone know it? Irene, please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't know quite what to make of your "Silver Lining" analysis. Do you really see the episode that way? Or are you simply being entertaining? Is your analysis tongue in cheek or deadly serious? Either way, I sure got a kick out of it.
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Post by Patcat on Jun 30, 2009 8:14:12 GMT -5
Wow...My head is spinning, and in a good way.
A terrific post, Irene, even if I do disagree with a point or two--and I hope everyone knows that disagreeing is perfectly acceptable on this board. I don't think, to take one point, that Eames lied about not sleeping with Kevin. I think she picked up on his bad vibes and that she also disliked the way the personal and the profession were becoming entangled. And, of those two, I suspect the second was the strongest reason for her backing away from him. I also think Eames' rejection of Kevin deepened his resentment of her. She's not only involved in a case that's a professional failure for him, she's also a personal failure for him.
AL--There's much to digest in your post as well (Irene's post should be applauded for the other posts it inspired!). I write fanfic (my really bad addictions--writing fanfic, caffeine, and dreaming about Vincent D'Onofrio's hands...) that frequent ships, but I'm not sure if I really believe Goren and Eames have a sexual and/or romantic relationship. Whatever it is, it's extremely complicated, unusual, and fascinating to watch, and I'd argue that relationship is really what this episode is about.
Great posts, everyone.
Patcat
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LO:CI
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 141
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Post by LO:CI on Jun 30, 2009 11:00:54 GMT -5
As almost everything's already been written, I can only say that I absolutely loved this episode. I hope the stories will go on with such quality.
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Post by maherjunkie on Jun 30, 2009 11:23:42 GMT -5
I don't think Goren and Eames really do like each other in that way, it's just fun to pretend or speculate. I mostly just love the personal, having little use for the strict procedural.
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Post by ypomoni on Jun 30, 2009 11:31:48 GMT -5
Such great reads! Thank you Irene, Al, and everybody else! So nice to see different interpretations - I don't agree with them all, but there is definitely food for thought here! For example, Irene, regarding the beer incident with Mulroney's father's, it never crossed my mind that he was contradicting himself. To me it seemed that when Goren said he'd "love to but...." what was implied (and what I thought Mulroney's father's, was expected to understand) was that he was a cop on duty, and therefore not allowed to drink on the job! It's refreshing to hear people's opinions, backed up with logical explanations, without it having been forced down your throat as the only way to see things. Thank you all, once again!
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Post by quietfireca on Jun 30, 2009 11:33:14 GMT -5
but I think he saw in her what he wanted to be. Ewwwww! Good observation. But Ewwwwww. I guess he thought stealing her underwear would make that happen. Ewwwww!!! You know tjara when I read this, my first thought was "no he isn't". But I was thinking professionally. (Although he does take care of business!) And then, duh, I thought of Francis. How could anyone forget Francis.... So those dormant care-taker feelings kicked into gear when he realized he could do something for Alex. He was needed. And he knows how to tread carefully around the female of the species - he had lots of practice with Francis. 'Cause sure as anything you couldn't be overt in your care-taking of Alex. Me, too! It would have been a nice twofer (the price of one) for Goren to show them all up, but it might have detracted from the G/E focus. And made her look really incompetent. Actually, thinking on from that, it was nice he didn't solve it. Thanks for helping me think in different directions!
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Post by Jefferaldo on Jun 30, 2009 19:02:11 GMT -5
Wow there is so much to digest here. I only just watched the episode and am absolutely enthralled.
Irene what an interesting read! So is yours, AL. But there are a few points I would disagree with. I am going to rewatch the episode later today or tomorrow and make a post.
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Post by outerbankschick on Jun 30, 2009 21:56:46 GMT -5
Not only was this a solid episode, but the writer's get a kudos from me for confusing me because at first blush, I thought the "redhead" (whom I knew to be a man from outset) was actually trying to frame Alex. It became apparent after a bit that "she" was doing something more akin to stalking. Boz the lady's man. . .blech! He made my skin crawl in the first scene. Good job Jack Gwaltney for again giving me a character that makes me go ICK. The look on his face while checking himself out in the mirror. . .I was waiting for him to blow a kiss at himself! The "why" was a two-fer. Mulroney wanted Boz dead, but he also wanted to taunt Alex. So there was the "whydunnit" and the "why-did-the-killer-leave-those-clues" question. Kept me on the edge, waiting for the reveal. I also really liked the whole Bobby/Alex dynamic in this one. It was nice seeing him in what is usually her position. I thought his concern for her was profound, as well as professional. There is a good relationship between them that was able to withstand everything they went through in the past year or so. I also thought that his "tone" was gentle and that Alex took it the wrong way. He didn't have to say, "Of course I know you didn't plant the letter." His attitude said it, and the way he simply went on until the light began to dawn and Alex realized where he was going with it. As for Mulroney's two sides. . .I am still digesting that. It seems to me that he uses "Abby" to express the rage that his passive-aggressive male side cannot. He has an inferiority complex and it shows. It showed itself quick when Bobby was giving his take of the crime scene. Mulroney came straight out the gate with his dismissal of everything Bobby said. He was strutting then, just as he strutted in the evidence lock-up. A peacock with no tail. I loved all the Bobby fun, too. The playing drunk, the squeezing of the guy in the interrogation room, and all that snooping. Opening the TV cabinet, the closet doors. I keep hearing the dad from Cherry Red: "You're awfully snoopy!" Keep snooping, Bobby! I love it!
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Post by outerbankschick on Jun 30, 2009 22:09:00 GMT -5
You're right, DJ. No way Alex's panties would fit. So what did he do with them? Eeeeeek! Maybe he planned to leave them somewhere for her to find. I can handle that. Nothing else! I would need brain bleach for anything beyond that. . . I also loved the way Bobby sat in Faith Yancy's chair. His whole demeanor in this episode was that insolent, playful Bobby of old who likes to mess with people's heads. And you gotta love a guy who will start out questioning the bartender about the suspect and end up fishing for information about his partner because she's keeping "mum". I thought it was cute when Alex said, "Did you find out everything you needed to know. . .(brief pause) about me?" And he just gives her this affectionately amused look and says "Every-thing!. . .Bourbon, huh? Bourbon." Very nicely done.
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nosee
Detective
Posts: 220
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Post by nosee on Jul 1, 2009 0:59:20 GMT -5
This reminded me of the episode "Death Roe" in Season 4 when a celebrity chef kills his son in law. The scene I'm thinking about is when G/E go talk to the chef and he offers Goren some of his homemade wine. Goren takes a glass and he's about to take a drink when Eames says, "I'm sorry, we're on duty." and then Goren puts the glass down. LOL!!
It was great to see the old Goren and Eames together again. I hope they keep it up!
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Post by quietfireca on Jul 1, 2009 2:06:39 GMT -5
Boz the lady's man. . .blech! Hey OBC, I've been musing over the title Lady's Man and you've poked the right spot... Something I've learned on this board is that typically the episode title meaning resounds throughout. I found several definitions of Lady's Man (and Ladies' Man) online yesterday. They're almost the same: - a man who enjoys spending time and flirting with women
- A man who enjoys and attracts the company of women
In this episode we have the traditional lady's man: Boz The freakish lady's man who many have noted puts a new slant on Lady's Man: Mulrooney Any others? so what happens if I suggest that Goren is Eames'? !!!!!!!!!!!!!I'm ducking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OBC, are you going to jump in about the spelling?
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Post by DonnaJo on Jul 1, 2009 9:56:01 GMT -5
I seem to be the only one that didn't like the shove. I think it was so un-Bobby. I realize this might be a side-effect of not having seen Blind Spot yet, but Bobby usually mentally disarms the perps, not physically. He'll only go physical if needed. He could've simply held the guy and let Eames take over. Have you seen Season 7 yet? It offers us several instances of un-Bobby-like physicality. The "accidental" shove into the water in "Depths" and especially the wrist twisting of the old mentor in "Self-Made." To me, that act was so out of character for the Bobby I knew & loved. I went on about it on the episode thread. Anyway, That's why no one here cares about that little shove, I think. And besides, the creep was taunting Eames so cruelly. Ridiculing her, berating her. A mere shove by a potentially dangerous Bobby was a gift.
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