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Post by Patcat on Oct 31, 2004 22:44:10 GMT -5
I love it when LOCI twists in a direction I don't expect. And I love its bleak, black humor.
It started as a dark, creepy, even funny in warped way, a perfect episode for Halloween. And then, at the end, it's the terrible story of two lonely people desperate for love, a case that seemed to shake both Goren and Eames. And some wonderful acting, not only on the part of our always excellent leads, but on the guest stars as well.
I think the fourth season is shaping up as a weird but wonderful one.
Patcat
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Post by janetcatbird on Oct 31, 2004 23:42:45 GMT -5
Too tired and foggy to make a terribly coherent post, but first impressions.
Is it just me or were the jokes really bad in this one? "Clean the wax out of your ears", there was another one later on, and then, worst of all, "Cat got your tongue..." made me groan. Bad Goren! No cookie!
How did we get from the haunted house props to the final product? I got confused as to why exactly Butch killed those people, much less how a blue-collar mechanic could set up those people with credit. And the severed parts--those were from the tissue collectors for the labs, right? I'm guessing the underground stuff is linked to the Parisian tunnels they had an article about a few weeks ago. And all I could think of when GOren/Eames were itnerviewing at the tunnel was Les Miz: "Look down and see the sweepings of the street/Look down, look down, upon your fellow man, Look down and see the beggars at your feet/Look down, look down, show mercy if you can."
Well, we know something about Eames' Mom. From the sound of it Mom is still alive, though not in the greatest condition, so that shoots my theory. "I've seen my mother" indicates that it's ongoing. If Mom had died one would expect her to say "I saw my mother".
It did seem to hit both of the detectives hard. Just the expressions on their faces, man they hurt. Forgive my ignorance, but when the baby calcified that meant that the fetus never came out, right? I wonder if seeing the pain of an almost-mother was just too much for Eames. She's always been more procedure-oriented than Goren, but when she cuffed Butch the look on her face made me think she was trying to turn away from Rose and not have to face it. The pain of someone who had a baby inside her but missed out on sharing the life? Seeing both herself and her elderly, ill mother in that one figure couldn't have been easy.
How interesting that they didn't drag Goren's mother into it. Or maybe they figure we know all we need to about her. The trouble with a mind not doing what it was supposed to, helplessness, surely it brought back memories. Notice he didn't actually say that much to Rose once he figured out what happened, he just stood there and held her. Didn't try to convince her it'd be alright, didn't talk about treatment or help options, just hugged her. Could it be that he himself didn't know what to say? Someone pointed out how he places a hand on the back of his neck when stressed--he definitely had them around his head after Butch and Rose were gone, though I couldn't see exact placement.
The final lines were not an Aesop summary and they weren't a sarcastic sound bite. Eames almost seemed to be stumbling over her words, bleeding off stress as she tried to compose herself, talking too fast like she didn't want to dwell on what she was saying. "I gotta see my nephew", well, if we weren't sure of her family ties before we are now. Although I couldn't quite figure out what she meant by "still the dark ages", was she just trying to say something to cover how shook up she was? In that state I almost expected Goren to check on her ("You OK?" with a pat on the arm), but then he had his own emotions to deal with.
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Post by Techguy on Oct 31, 2004 23:59:31 GMT -5
I don't want to divulge too many spoiler details in case some members missed "In the Dark" for one reason or another.
I do want to say that the title perfectly describes my thought processes because I got so distracted by some of the plot details that I couldn't figure out what was going to happen while I was watching. A review of the tape is definitely in order.
Dark, bleak and creepy--"In the Dark" is all that as a Halloween episode, but I just didn't get the humor in it. Maybe because I was trying to pay too much attention to other plot details, but if humor was intended it escaped me completely.
I do concur that the acting by the two principal guest stars was outstanding, although I confess I am most familiar with Geoffrey Lewis from his guest appearances in some Clint Eastwood movies I saw years ago.
And this episode does continue the basic pattern of dealing with the theme of loneliness, but not so much with Det. Goren as with the two lead characters. Somehow I get the feeling the cumulative effect of Goren having to deal with his own loneliness and isolation as he deals with perps with deep emotional and psychological wounds is going to come to some sort of climax by the time Season 4 is over.
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Post by Patcat on Nov 1, 2004 3:25:40 GMT -5
Janetcatbird and Techguy--I like your observations and comments.
There was a quick comment regarding Butch's imprisonment for fraud, which is where he probably gained the skills necessary to put together the credit card scheme.
Perhaps I found the first half of this episode funny because I was in a mood to find it so. But I quickly found the second half to be very disturbing, and I agree that it seemed to hit very deep and hard at both Eames and Goren. The parellels between the woman and Goren's mother are, I think, clear, and it's understandable that the case would also remind Eames of her pregnancy.
And, there are cases of pregnancies that end with a calcified baby left within the mother. It's rare, but it happens, and the mother can have a normal life expentancy.
Patcat
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Post by Major Hathaway on Nov 1, 2004 7:52:32 GMT -5
ADMIN NOTE:
ANY thread with the title of the episode, which should be posted anytime after that episode airs is EXPECTED to have spoilers .... so please do not spoil the page by the spoiler spacing or your post content by holding back. All readers should be aware by this time about our threads. All pre-episode discussion (or pre-viewing) can go on the upcoming episode threads.
I now return you to your regularly scheduled episode posting.......
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Post by trisha on Nov 1, 2004 11:24:27 GMT -5
Come on, you didn't laugh at "The killer and Mrs. Magoo,"? That one even had Mr. Trisha laughing. And we both laughed at "Cat got your tongue?" too. It was more the look on the guys face than Goren's line, but the whole scene was great. I also loved the look on the ME's face when Goren picked up the hand. I half expected her to say, "That is NOT a toy!" I really liked this episode, it was a great episode for all hollows eve, right down to the walking coffin. But, the line about the cherry blossoms pretty much dated the episode at as taking place in the spring. People do strange things, as we see on the news and read in the papers every day, but for that woman to walk around with a dead baby in her belly for 30 years when it could easily have been removed is just whacked. If she was that upset about her little love child, why did she tell her friend at work? And why not have it removed once it died? You can expect better privacy from your doctor than pretty much anyone else, especially coworkers- they love gossip. Doctor's are too afraid of getting sued, or having their reputations damaged to talk. So, Rose has me confused there. Perhaps she needed to express her fears so badly that when the opportunity presented itself in a caring or thoughtful manner, she spilled. I'm glad that Bobby's mother had nothing to do with this episode, but it doesn't bother me that Eames mentioned hers, or her nephew. I like hearing little tidbits about her family as long as they are relevant to the subject at hand, and both those mentions certainly were. I do have one nit-pick, though ... I love that Eames is a car enthusiast, but what was that bit about rubbing soap on the fan belt? I admit that I'm no mechanic, but Mr. Trisha is more of an expert on cars than anyone else I've ever met, and even he had never heard of anyone doing that. Maybe Alex should give Lewis a call. They seem perfect for each other
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Post by Metella on Nov 1, 2004 11:38:35 GMT -5
I liked it - it was not stellar; but a well-needed lighter, cop & legwork episode. I think for the guy to kill to get money - Rose should have been more wacked in her tired times; doesn't seem like she was asking for any money & with no pressure on him, I just don't see why he was killing people.
Magoo comment had me snorting & grabbing my side.
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rune
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 62
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Post by rune on Nov 1, 2004 15:29:41 GMT -5
I do have one nit-pick, though ... I love that Eames is a car enthusiast, but what was that bit about rubbing soap on the fan belt? Years ago I saw my dad use a bar of soap on a squeaky belt. It doesn't really do anything mechanically that I'm aware of, just takes care of the noise. Anyone else notice the undercurrent of feminism "then and now" in the story? I think Eames' comment about the "dark ages" referred back to the interview with Rose's friend about why Rose didn't have an abortion. In a similar vein, Eames and Goren play the "she's a girl, what could she know about cars" game with Butch the first time they go to his garage. Fairly subtle, but entertaining and true to what we know about "our" detectives.
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Post by tjill on Nov 1, 2004 16:23:17 GMT -5
Come on, you didn't laugh at "The killer and Mrs. Magoo,"? That one even had Mr. Trisha laughing. And we both laughed at "Cat got your tongue?" too. It was more the look on the guys face than Goren's line, but the whole scene was great. I also loved the look on the ME's face when Goren picked up the hand. I half expected her to say, "That is NOT a toy!" Yeah, I pretty much loved all that stuff too! I really liked this episode, it was a great episode Here's where we totally differ. I found the episode to be incredibly weak in terms of story and believability. A well-crafted story is what I have come to expect from LOCI. So I'm spoiled! Sue me! People do strange things, as we see on the news and read in the papers every day, but for that woman to walk around with a dead baby in her belly for 30 years when it could easily have been removed is just whacked. Somebody on another board looked up the subject of calcified fetuses and it seems they are mainly undetectable unless found by accident when being examined for another health problem and a woman could live with one inside of her for years and not know it. I'll reproduce what the other person found: The following is taken from FreeDictionary.com "A stone baby, or lithopedion, results when a fetus dies during an ectopic pregnancy, is too large to be reabsorbed by the body, and calcifies. It is not unusual for the lithopedion to remain undiagnosed for decades, and it is often not until a patient is examined for other conditions that a stone baby is found. The oldest reported case is that of a 94 year old woman, whose lithopedion had probably been present for over 60 years. Lithopedion is a rare phenomenon, occurring once in about 20,000 pregnancies, and with less than three hundred cases noted in medical literature accumulated over some 400 years. Lithopedian may occur from 14 weeks to full term. The earliest stone baby is one found in an archaeological excavation, dated to 1100 BCE." This knocks the whole Rose motivation, not to mention much of the integrity of the episode itself, out of the water for me. Lithopedians cannot be detected by normal women, yet a mentally disabled one like Rose knows all about it? Sure. But this is just the tip of the iceberg that bothered me about this episode. I do have one nit-pick, though ... I love that Eames is a car enthusiast, but what was that bit about rubbing soap on the fan belt? I admit that I'm no mechanic, but Mr. Trisha is more of an expert on cars than anyone else I've ever met, and even he had never heard of anyone doing that. Maybe Alex should give Lewis a call. They seem perfect for each other Eames said this because, upon noticing how smooth sounding this old station wagon's engine was, she knows that due to the car's age, there's a better than average chance that no matter how well it was taken care of, the pulleys in the fan belt had small rust spots. These rust spots make cars squeak when they run. Rubbing soap on the fan belt stops the squeak. If someone has a classic car and knows this trick, it sure beats going to the mechanic to get reamed financially.
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Post by trisha on Nov 1, 2004 17:24:33 GMT -5
Actually, Rose knew that she was pregnant, so that negates your argument and evidence of how hard stone babies are to find. If she never knew she was pregnant, you would be right and there would certainly be no story. But, Rose did know that she was knocked up, and the coworker said she even got a little belly- that usually doesn't happen until 12+ weeks. So, she knew she was pregnant, probably even felt the baby move, then it stopped moving, her belly stopped growing- she may have not known for sure that be baby had died until she had another period, but she certainly knew that the fetus was never expelled. Even after only 4-6 weeks, you can't mistake a miscarried fetus for a blood clot. Rose knew it was still in her, and since she was embarrassed to have gotten pregnant out of wedlock to begin with, she probably felt some relief, so add guilt to the loss. As she aged, she most likely felt the loss more profoundly and dwelled on what it would be like if the child had not died, and she had a daughter to love and be loved by. The psychological wear of this loss and the guilt associated with it made "Jenny" a fitting delusion for Rose. The focus of her subconscious came to the surface in times of confusion. Naturally, she spoke of Jenny to Butch when she was tired, but then realized what she had done when she was alert. She was still ashamed of her pregnancy, and disgusted by the fact that she was a walking coffin for her child. She assumed that Butch would feel the same way, as well as thinking she was a little batty for telling him about Jenny as if she was real person. So, Rose kept her mouth shut. For the soap on the fan belt ... I would just clean or replace the belt and/or the entire fan. Never would have occurred to me, or to Mr. Trisha, to band-aid the problem with soap. Do it right, or not at all
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Post by Sirenna on Nov 1, 2004 19:31:48 GMT -5
This episode gave new meaning to 'spare parts' and 'kids who haven't left the nest'. Yikes.
I think the fine line between personal and professional attachments, including getting attached to the people involved in the cases, was handled very well this time. LO:ci characters deal with life as opposed to getting bogged down by it which is what I saw in 'Want' and 'Semi'. Here, we know Eames is dealing with her mother's stroke, just as we know Goren is dealing with his mother's illness. Yet, work doesn't get short-changed. Successful, well-rounded people cope. We don't need to see them sitting at their sick mother's bedside to get that they deal when the going gets rough.
The scene with the M.E. was interesting. She was professionally embarrassed by Goren who, for the second time, pointed out a crucial clue that she had neglected. She missed the cut calf muscle in 'Semi'. She saw the green on the hand but never tested for it. This is what happens at work. People make mistakes. Some don't like to admit it and you get an insight into their personalities without getting into their lives.
I'm fine with the credit card scam. The auctions probably stopped taking credit cards after being burned by scams like these anyway. Cash only had to start somewhere. For the sake of the story, it is easier to attach credit to someone who wouldn't qualify. Apparently even Fido can get a card. It's much harder to get and give cash to a homeless person without questions being raised.
The $100 + K was used to fuel the fantasy as deposits on the phone, apartment and it's fixings. Rose kept trying to keep and hide her secret by renting the places then cancelling them.
There was some great humour in this episode and Goren was at his most helpfully unhelpful. You know when he leads them by the hand through the forest but fails to warn them about the pithole coming up Like with Kenny and the parts that 'fly off the shelves'.
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Post by janetcatbird on Nov 1, 2004 20:26:35 GMT -5
I'm about ready for Rogers to defend her turf. For years she's been a smart, capable ME who can zing 'em with the best. Why must she appear an idiot on CI? And always to show off Goren? I'm one of the less enthusiastic Goren fans on this board, because while a great character I don't like how he overshadows everybody else. Rogers has made one or two slips on the mothership, but NOT this close together and not to show off one of the leads. Let her be the expert that we know and love, and, while it may be Goren's way to poke and prod, for crying out loud he needs to show some professionalism and respect.
I'm still confused. So, Butch killed the homeless men after getting the cars to cover his tracks and hid them in the tunnels. Collectors then come along and take the severed parts as tissue samples for the black market to research companies. Was Butch even responsible for the blonde we saw at the beginning? The characters were great this episode, but the plot isn't twisted so much as sloppy.
Poor Eames. She's not too crazy about forensics to begin with, although she kept her cool while Goren was tossing the parts around. Then all the personal stuff. Her speech pattern at the end, the speaking too fast and all, reminded me of "Pas De Deux" when she realized she almost shot the suspect for a starter pistol. That's what made me think she was bleeding off stress. And good for the writers for not making her cynical. I mentioned earlier that I got really hacked off when her comments in earlier seasons seemed to be callous, flippant comments to pave the way for Goren's sensitivity, Thank God they're getting over that.
Deakins is a presence, not much screen time but consistant. Give him and Carver some more stuff and I'll be happy.
As to the baby, how many people had Rose told? Her coworker, but from the sound of things she hadn't told her family. And if she was still living at home then her parents would probably have seen the medical bills. Maybe she was too ashamed or guilty to go for help, didn't want to show what she'd done. All I know is that I'm an intensely private person and if I ever wound up in that situation it would take forever for me to tell anybody. Poor woman.
Haven't graded this episode yet. Psych and character insight, A. Plot and coherence? About a D. Guess I'll have to get in a better mood before I rate it, for some reason I just got crabby.
PS: As to the humor...forced and hokey. While I understood the meaning of "Mrs. Magoo" I didn't find it especially amusing. Guess I'm the only one who didn't like it, huh? I miss Lenny.#nosmileys
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Post by NikkiGreen on Nov 1, 2004 20:29:46 GMT -5
I thought that Rogers had only recently received the body parts and hadn't even had a chance to look them over, let alone examine them.
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Post by Observer2 on Nov 1, 2004 20:31:12 GMT -5
For those who also read the Universal board, this post is identical – I’ll make any comments that are specific to this board in a separate post, so you don’t have to read this whole overgrown thing again! (sorry Metella – one thing lead to another, and I just kept writing...) Well, I didn’t comment last week on the second change to the opening credits, because I wasn’t sure how I felt about it. I really liked all the new pictures they had gone to, so I wasn’t sure about having the two new ones of Goren changed yet again, and changing the one that starts the shift to Deakins. Seeing it again, I’ve decided I really like the third version – maybe even better than the second version. And even though the new picture of Goren, Eames and Deakins that begins the introduction of Deakins has him less in the center of the picture, I like it better than the old one as a picture of him with the detectives. As to the episode itself, aside from the technical plot problems, and the cherry trees going into bloom in August, I liked this episode. I guess it’s easier for me to suspend disbelief around credit card/financial issues than around medical or psychological ones. I had a “What?!” reaction, then just shrugged and went on. I figured maybe New York City auctions were more flexible about payment methods than the government auctions I’m familiar with. As to why the credit card companies would have contacted the merchant when the cardholder defaulted... well, I don’t know for sure what their policies are with amounts that large... So there was enough uncertainty in my own mind that I could just go with what they told me. If I’d known for certain the crime was impossible, I’d have been less able to do that. Thinking about it, I also realize that with Criminal Intent I’m more concerned with the realism of the motive/psychology of the criminal than the realism of the crime. I compared my fairly mellow reaction to the credit card flaws in this plot to my reactions to the rat-eating-the-bullet flaws in a CSI:NY episode, trying to figure out if I just ignore flaws in Criminal Intent because I already like the show. But the fact is that if the central element – the stone baby – had been medically impossible, or if the killer’s motivation – his willingness to go to extreme measures, trying harder and harder to do something that would ease her distress – had not seemed viable to me, I would have been very disappointed with the episode. To my mind, Criminal Intent is primarily a psychological puzzle, so those elements need to be accurate. On the other hand, I would tolerate sloppiness in the psychological motivation for a crime in CSI:NY more easily than the sloppiness on forensic details I’ve seen in several episodes, since it’s a show primarily about the forensic aspects of a case (the most recent episode was much better, so if you’d given up on the series, you might try it again). Then there are those cherry trees. This episode was a natural to be shown for Halloween. But that doesn’t mean it needed to be set in late October. I have no problem with it being set in the spring, or in September. But you can’t have both. And since the mention of cherry blossoms was in the script, the dates we saw on the screen were wrong. This is not the first time the system for assigning dates to scenes in episodes has gone badly awry. In a show with otherwise very high production standards it’s a glaring weakness that confuses viewers and breaks the integrity of the story. Somehow, either the information the post-production people need to assign appropriate dates doesn’t get to them, or they simply don’t care – and no one catches it on the way out the door. Anyway, back to the actual story. As others have mentioned, the writing for Eames was great. But, aside from particular opportunities to use her knowledge of cars, I didn’t think it was all that different from what we’ve been seeing a lot of this season. I think a new level of writing for her participation in working the cases is well established and fairly consistent, and IMO it strengthens the partnership without taking anything away from Goren. I really liked her lines at the end. Her desire to see her nephew after all that reflects something that real cops, medical workers, and others in similar lines of work talk about. And the fact that she would acknowledge that kind of feeling, rather than just making a distancing, ironic comment, seems to me to fit in with the subtle changes that started in her character when she was pregnant. They seem to me to be very natural changes, of the kinds that experiencing motherhood might trigger. I think these changes are a positive development, both in the sense of the character’s personality becoming more functional and resilient (by dealing with her own emotions in more direct, healthier ways), and in the sense of making the character more engaging to the viewer. Of course, her sharp wit is too effective a coping mechanism – and too much fun – for me to want to see her abandon it entirely! I loved her line about “The killer and Mrs. Magoo.” I don’t know why it struck me as so funny, but it got an out-loud laugh out of me. I felt terrible, laughing about the woman’s condition – but the image was just so vivid... Eames’ reference to her mother’s stroke came as a complete surprise to me. Of course, that, in itself, is not surprising... she’s always been a very contained person, who doesn’t telegraph much about her personal life. She’s more open now than she used to be, but still pretty contained. She responded to the mention of a stroke with personal experience as grounds for disagreeing, but it was hard for her to talk about it, even that much – her body language closed up with tightly crossed arms, and it took several moments for her to relax again. Speaking of the stroke and it’s effects, I liked Goren’s precision in talking about it, and the brief – and accurate – correction about the difference between mild/intermittent dementia and delusions. I like the new level of writing for Deakins, as well. It’s not as dramatic as with Eames, but he’s consistently giving input or directions about the nuts-and-bolts aspects of the cases, and getting occasional opportunities for his dry humor – such as, “Beaming signals to the mothership?” Another thing I enjoyed was the scene where, once again, Goren was pushing the ME’s boundaries. It’s her turf, and she’s used to cops respecting that. She was a bit irritated, in Want, by Goren’s insistence that there was something on the bone other than tooth marks... until she saw he was right and got as intrigued as he was. Here, when she doesn’t know what the stain is (no time for tests yet), he just picks up a hand and starts working out kinesthetically what the stain might be. She contains her reaction – it wasn’t as bad as when he grabbed the swab and was going to check the victim’s sinuses in Mad Hops – but still, she was not thrilled. “If you don’t mind...” Goren’s quick glance at her, as he started to pick up the hand – not so much checking for permission as a kind of, ‘...am I going to get away with this?’ look, and the way Eames looked at the ME as Goren held the hand, were both interesting. It’s also interesting to me that both sides of the ‘psychology debate’ seem to like this episode – because, like the eps that are at the center of that debate, this one seems to me to play strongly on the theme of the tension between Goren’s reactions to the terrible things people do and his compassion for some of the people who do them. In this case it was captured in the moment when the woman who had closed her eyes to nine murders – at least eight of which she could have prevented – is leaning on Goren, and he can’t help but comfort her with a hand on her shoulder. I keep wondering whether there was any significance to the fact that there were nine murders – like the lives of a cat – since cats were used so much as metaphors, in the cat got your tongue bit (I’m with those who liked that line – it was classic Goren), in the bit with the woman closing her eyes and pretending to be feeding cats, and in Goren’s question to her about whether she did the same thing when the homeless men were murdered, closing her eyes and pretending it was kittens being drowned.
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Post by janetcatbird on Nov 1, 2004 20:40:37 GMT -5
Well, I dunno. Cats are always seen as mysterious. aloof animals. My mother laughs that I have the same personality as Cleo, our 11 year old calico. Around people we don't know we're distant (Cleo can be snooty though I make an effort to be polite), but once we get to know people we can be very affectionate, if not clingy. Private yet loyal, cats seem to be almost a mirror of Eames and Rose, in a way. Although that comment about --drowning? I thought it was feeding?-- baby kittens made me think "Danger Will Robinson!" Rose needs some help, badly. I just could not help but remember this, and it seemed more appropriate on this thread. Or do I need to move it, moderators? Can't you just see Eames doing this? NOTE:: I did some reformatting so it could be read on this thread. www.cartalk.com/content/read-on/2000/06.23.htmlEffect of Gender on Car Repairs For your edification and amusement: I teach an experimental psychology class and ask our not-brain-dead students to design and run an experiment. One came up with the idea of looking at the effect of gender on car repairs. Tammy disconnected the ground wire for the "check engine light" on her still-under-warrantee Kia so the light was on. She then took the car to 10 different repair shops, and then had her 6'4" macho boyfriend Corey take the car a week or two later to the same shops. Here are the results: Shop Diagnosis for Tammy w/cost for Corey the Male w/cost 1 Tammy: alternator $385 Corey: wire loose $0 2 T: O2 sensor & catalytic converter $320* C: same diagnosis $135 3 T: fuel injection $565 C:wire loose $10 4 T: transmission $2400 C:wire loose $0 5 T: wire loose $0 C: wire loose** $0 6 T: water pump $765 C:water hose $25 7 T: O2 sensor $283 C: ?? "return to dealer" 8 T: head gasket $300 C: loose wire $0 9 T: faulty exhaust $1345 C: loose wire $0 10 T: bad starter $375 C: loose wire $0 * the mechanic offered to cut her a deal if she would go out with him. When she said she was married the mechanic said "So? You're still good looking" ** the mechanic said he recognized the car from before (which lead Tammy to increase the time between visits). These were the same mechanics/service writers. The first was even a female (no honor among the same sex). What Tammy is going to try next is to see if a female with knowledge of auto mechanics will be as vulnerable as a naive one (before she first got her driverÕs license, she had to help her father rebuild an engine). This is probably well known from anecdotal evidence, but here is the same conclusion from a more scientific study. Peter Gram Dept. Behavioral Sciences Pensacola Junior College Florida #nosmileys
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