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Post by NicoleMarie on Nov 9, 2005 21:17:56 GMT -5
Still haven't reviewed the tape, but in retrospect I'm thinking that Eames' near-tears on the stand were almost out of character. I was so overwhelmed at Erbe's performance that I didn't immediately realize Since when is Eames such a ninny? It would be much more in character to get angry and snappish at the lawyer in her response, not weepy. If she's had to keep her professional cool at brutal crime scenes, nasty perps, poor kids as victims,a nd presumably other cross-examinations it doesn't make sense she'd come close to caving now. Especially since I get the impression that Eames refuses to show weaknesses in front of professionals like cops or lawyers for fear of being stigmatized as a sappy emotional woman who can't handle a man's job. But considering that Goren was right there in the courtroom with that expression on his face...yeah, that'd definitely play a part. Obviously it wasn't so serious she had to tell him about it, some things are best and safest left unsaid, and I'm sure she was hoping to keep the letter that way. I was going to leave this one alone but the more I think about it, the more Eames herself irritated me in that scene and I just have to say something. hehehe I was disapointed with her reaction to the letter. She seemed to unwittingly justify the defenses' character assasination of Goren by becoming weepy and giving a lame explanation of why she withdrew the letter. Was used to more "conventional" detectives, Goren was an "aquired" taste? Come on now, you can "acqure" a taste for pee if you have to! ;D Instead of strengthening and sticking up for Goren *and* herself, she weakened and withered. Had Eames read the letter in a more caliveir and dismissive manner, would have been more believable. It would have made more sense for her to become angry and defend herself, especially given the way she and Goren were being hammered by the defense. Eames was indeed blindsided but, she is much smarter and much tougher than to let something like that break her. That was a horrible thing to do to Eames as a character. Goren managed to keep his head (literally) when he found out about his mother. It would have been nice had Eames been able to do the same. *sighs* I feel so much better now! *giggles* And, I think this will become an issue later in the show. Had this "letter" been revealed much earlier in the show, it would have been easier fore Goren and Eames to have worked it out and talked about it. After building up such comaradie and trust with each other, this could possibly put a serious dent their their relationship. I did not see Goren just let this roll off his back. He was not happy, he appeared quite wounded to me. He was so ginger with Eames, and Eames looked worried as he waked away from her. Had that me that letter was written about, I would have hunted her down and gave her a good screaming at. I would be livid that after all this time, she never bothered to tell me how badly I had gotten on her nerves. I would want to know. I wonder how their attitudes towards each other will play out in later shows. Unfortunatley, I don't think this issue is over. I wish it hadn't been raised, at all. CI usually steers clear of these soapy (yes, soapy!) complications. (By the way, Nicole Marie, while viewer fans may not agree with the wording of the letter I do think it in keeping with a traditional, street-based cop's view of some nutter coming out of left field. She still thinks he's a bit odd, she just recognizes that his quirks are part of his crime-solving. Deakins has made comments about the Goren show, Carver quips about his "obsessive nature", and those are the ones that respect him! I think Eames originally meant it as "How can I work with this guy?" and it was the judge who turned it into character assassination. And I don't think the show's writers meant it to discredit Eames. Your remark about the Goren lovers confuses me. Some may be rabid fans, but I don't think I've seen anybody talk ugly about Eames. Even in the first couple years, if people snarked anything it was how little she did before the writers got a grip that she was competent and capable her own self.) --Catbird I'd like to know if the wording of the "letter" was twisted for defense purpose for assasination of Goren's (and Eames') characters or not. Of course, we will never know. I still the wording was downright cruel. I cannot fathom how that wording could apply to Goren. It was more befitting to Charles Manson! hehehehe! I do think it was a slight attemp to discredit Eames, not so much in the eyes of the fans but, to perhaps drive a wedge between her and Goren. From the look on Goren's face as he walked away from Eames, and judging from Eames' "Oh sh*it" look, I'm thinking we seen the wedge then. My "Goren lovers" comment was meant in jest- I think I will stop my attempts at humor because all I do is confuse people!!
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Post by darmok on Nov 9, 2005 23:27:50 GMT -5
I don't think the letter will become an issue later. The reason I don't think it will is because it did come so late in the game. They have a strong, well-established partnership. They are too smart to let one thing that happened 5 years ago when they barely knew each other erase 5 years of trust. Goren didn't say a lot to her afterwards, but that's his way. He doesn't open up his personal side much at all - even to his partner. He wasn't angry with her. He started to walk away, and then decided he needed to say something. He could have just said, "Don't worry about it; no problem." But instead he says, "I'm lucky you withdrew the letter." He made her feel much better; he won't hold a grudge.
Another example of his not being very willing to open up is seen after Eames walks in when he's on the phone about his mother. She doesn't know what's going on, but she asks if his mother is going to be ok. He ignores the question and asks her what she found. She's flustered but tells him about the ink stains. At that point, he decides to confide in her and interrupts her mid-sentence to tell her about his mother. She wants to help him, but he wants to be left alone, and he walks out. As Catbird mentioned, she knows that this is not the time to leave him alone and she goes after him. An aside - I wonder if she caught up to him and drove (and then he got out right away while she parked) or if they drove separately.
Did anyone else wonder if the judge's revelations about Goren really showed and "unbanalnced" individual? I mean, if the worst he could come up with was that he kept his mother in a mental health facility, had spite for his dead father, and wouldn't help his gambling addict brother, was it really worth the effort (especially since Goren's anger led to the judge's downfall).
Also, I liked how Carver reacted to the situation. He and Goren don't have a close friendship, but they do have a respectful and professional working relationship. Carver makes an effort to get the judge to stop when he is personally attacking Goren. He stays in the background when Goren ruthlessly goes after the judge. After Goren gets the confession, Carver comments, "Nice work, detective." He doesn't mention any of the personal stuff, or ask about his mother or any of the other things he could have asked that would have made Goren uncomfortable. Just, "Nice work." 'nuff said.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Nov 9, 2005 23:28:06 GMT -5
One more thing to add about this one: I found myself, a bonafide Logan hater, liking Logan in this show. Of course, his good boy behavior this time has not fooled me! I l know Logan is just waiting to go ballistic on someone next time! hehehe If he would completely lay off the pool sticks, I would watch more of him!
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Post by darmok on Nov 9, 2005 23:40:01 GMT -5
Oh, Observer, thanks for the possible location of Carmel Ridge. It makes sense. I was wondering why he wouldn't go there immediately. As you said, it also fits with the once a week visits.
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Post by willow2tree on Nov 10, 2005 9:33:05 GMT -5
Once again, I must agree to disagree with you, NicoleMarie. I thought just the opposite of the reactions of Goren in the courtroom and after. I thought the look on his face at first was shock, but after that, I saw sympathy for Eames for the fact that this was being brought up in a public forum in a way meant to humiliate her. I didn't see anger at her at all. And in the hallway, I thought he went out of his way to let her know that he wasn't angry. I just didn't see anger or withdrawal from him at all, and I don't think it will be an issue in the future at all. Eames and Goren have a very solid relationship professionally after 5 years and a great mutual respect. If you had a boyfriend of 5 years and you just found out that he had another girlfriend at the time you started dating him, but when he got to know you and decided you were the one he wanted to be with and ended it with the other person; would you hate him now? That's a lame analogy, but the only one I can come up with at the moment. You don't hate someone for something that happened in the past before you really knew them well. And why would she tell him about the letter? "Oh, by the way, when I first met you I hated your guts and wanted to get away from you, but now it's all good, so forget that I ever hated you and thought you were strange, not that you aren't strange, but now I'm just used to it." What purpose would that serve? I wouldn't want to know, and I certainly wouldn't tell.
As far as her reaction on the stand, when I get very angry about something, especially when I'm blindsided by something in a situation where I can't defend myself or yell or smack the other nasty person, sometimes my anger is released through tears of frustration. It's not that I'm sad, I'm uber pissed! That was how I read the reaction that she had. I rarely cry, and I get the feeling that the same is true for Eames; but in a situation like that, I think it was an understandable reaction. Once Carver gave her an avenue of recourse and release, she was once again in control.
Anyway, my 2 cents worth. I love reading everyone's diverse comments; they really make me think.
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Post by lisianthus on Nov 10, 2005 11:58:58 GMT -5
I agree with willow2tree. I saw no anger there, and later saw his usual calm self reassuring her he was ok with it. I'm also darn sure he's had other partners who have requested a switch soon after being paired with him. She may have sent it then, but they've had each others back for 5 years now, and she certainly trusts him now.
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Post by Patcat on Nov 10, 2005 13:23:48 GMT -5
My take on Eames' testimony is that she was completely blindsided by the angle of attack. I'm sure, after what happened to Logon, Barek, Carver, and especially Goren, she was ready for some kind of an attack, but likely expected it would be personal. Perhaps her father or the shooting incidents or even her surrogacy, but I think the attack on Goren stunned her. And I'm sure she never expected to see that tansfer request again. Eames is a bright woman, and she knows Goren as well as anyone does, and she probably thought this was a nasty blow coming at a very nasty time.
Patcat
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Post by Techguy on Nov 10, 2005 16:38:11 GMT -5
I have to think, the judge will still do time because of the rape, won't he? And will the son Ethan do time because he didn't do anything to help Tiana when she hit her head and died and then covered it up? I would think it would be a threefur, with all of them in jail. What does anyone else think? I haven't had time to look at my tape, but I recall Carver saying something about the charge of rape against the judge still remaining after the withdrawal of the first degree murder charge. I also recall Carver saying earlier that Ethan will be held responsible for Tiana's death. I'm not sure of the legal term--maybe involuntary manslaughter or negligent homicide? which will result in a one to three year sentence.
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Post by LOCIfan on Nov 10, 2005 20:16:27 GMT -5
Watched my tape again, and was just as pleased by a second viewing as I was by the first. I agree with those who see the final twist with the mom being the murderer as making character sense. As Goren describes is, she came home, saw Bethany in her home, drugged and raped, saw an article of Ethan's clothing or some other indication that he'd been involved and flipped out. While she definitely knew Ethan looked up to his father, I don't think she realized -- until that moment -- how much he was following in Harold's footsteps. I think she was appalled by the fact that he'd wandered so far down the road of decadent creepdom and, when she envisioned the scandal that might ensue (Bethany accuses both father and son of rape?) and how that might even be a bonding experience for the two of them -- because I agree that Harold's initial impulse would've been to throw money at the problem to keep it hush-hush -- that she decided to make the problem go away in a different way. The way she responded to Ethan's lost dog is a mild reflection of how she responded to this situation. She clearly had a great deal of guilt over bringing a child into a broken marriage to a narcissistic hedonist. She did a lot to try to "make up" for the conditions into which Ethan was born. She, too, threw money at the problem by giving Ethan every material comfort imaginable. But she also took on the role of long-suffering martyr by failing to divorce the judge for fear of being left without those material comforts. When she finally saw, in such a graphic way, that all her "sacrifices" had been for nothing, the murder makes sense (from her point of view).
Another thing I really liked and noticed more about the story the second time around was the fact that NONE of the parents of ANY of the kids even marginally connected with the case really knew what was going on in their kids' lives. "The secret life of teenagers" indeed!
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Post by janetcatbird on Nov 10, 2005 21:32:08 GMT -5
So I guess I really am a little goody-two-shoes freak in that I (gasp) got along with my parents as a teenager and (horros!) actually communicated what was going on in my life and talked with them about practically everything? Am I a disappointment to my generation?
Tiana may have had that series of excapades, but To be fair, it seemed like Bethany at least really was a good kid who got excited and carried away. If I recall correctly, she didn't have a "secret life" or anything before the trip, remember hwo naive her friends described her as? She was in a big exciting city with friends (NY can be overwhelming if you're not used to that sort of environment) wanted to have fun, and got in over her head. (We've seen adults like that.) A lot of kids get wild and silly on a couple of occassions away from home, they can get stupid, but with me and my friends at least it wasn't anything illegal, immoral, or obscene. Shoot, the craziest thing I ever did was run head-first into a mattress in the dorm just because. (And no, there was no alcohol or recreational pharmaceuticals involved.) I know I my own self am a bit naive and straight-laced, but not all students are closet druggies and hos. They could give us a token all-around good kid in the media, but dramatic license and all that leaves me skeptical.
--Catbird
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Post by LOCIfan on Nov 10, 2005 23:20:11 GMT -5
Catbird,
But that's what I mean about the episode. Most of the kids were "good" kids with "good" parents. It was just that there were certain experiments that the kids were engaging in that the parents didn't know about and, unluckily for all of them, it was those single incidents of experimentation that turned out tragically. I just thought that was an interesting thread running through the episode...
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Post by NicoleMarie on Nov 11, 2005 12:22:15 GMT -5
Once again, I must agree to disagree with you, NicoleMarie. I did see that Goren was definetly hurt. His expression in the final shot of him in the courtroom was disgust. There was no slight smile, no "Eh, oh well" expression, just a look of being disgusted. And his posture when he walked out of the courtroom towards Eames was stiff, he had his head held very high. (He held his head the same way when the judge was verbally attacking him in front of Eames and Carver.) Also, he would not look Eames in the eyes, he just gave her a few quick glances. He kept his chin tilted and down when speaking to her. He also fumbled with his jacket. His words did not match his actions nor his body language and that was reflected in Eames' expression as he walked away from her. He was definitely hurt and it showed. My opinion anyway. If you had a boyfriend of 5 years and you just found out that he had another girlfriend at the time you started dating him, but when he got to know you and decided you were the one he wanted to be with and ended it with the other person; would you hate him now? I've been married six years. If I found out he had another girlfriend while he was seeing me, hell yes I'd pissed!! Would I hate him? Of course not but, I would definitely have doubts. I would wonder what else he lied to me about. I'd wonder what else he was not telling me. I'm the kind of person that I want you to be straight and honest with me. If you can't, I see that as a lack of respect for me. That's just me though. ;D You don't hate someone for something that happened in the past before you really knew them well. And why would she tell him about the letter? "Oh, by the way, when I first met you I hated your guts and wanted to get away from you, but now it's all good, so forget that I ever hated you and thought you were strange, not that you aren't strange, but now I'm just used to it." What purpose would that serve? I wouldn't want to know, and I certainly wouldn't tell. I never said they will hate each other, I said it most likey will drive a wedge between them. Maybe it's just my personality but yes, I would want to know. I would want to be told. Eames should have told him how annoying he was to her, how frustrated she was with him, to his face, a long time ago. She has let him know in round-about ways how annoying he can be but not enough to make him realize he made her crazy when they were first partnered.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Nov 11, 2005 12:31:47 GMT -5
Did anyone else wonder if the judge's revelations about Goren really showed and "unbanalnced" individual? I mean, if the worst he could come up with was that he kept his mother in a mental health facility, had spite for his dead father, and wouldn't help his gambling addict brother, was it really worth the effort (especially since Goren's anger led to the judge's downfall). It was worth the e3ffort to the judge. hehehe! however, this description matches many people! And now I am wondering about Carmel Ridge itself. Is their security/procedures so lax that any dufus can come in off the street and visit a schitzophrenic patient? I am assuming that since Mrs. Goren is in Carmel Ridge in the first place, she must not be legally competent. Which would mean Goren is her legal guardian and would the one making all of her descions and deciding who has access to her, especially visitors. Goren should sue the hell out of them!! And the way the judge worded Mrs. Gorens' words, you'd think she does not to think too highly of him, if all she had to say was what he did wrong. (Father, brother, etc.) And why did CI feel the need to point out that Goren has a gambling additced brother, who according to his mother (via the judge), that Goren won't lift a finger to help him? Smells fishy to me! I wonder what they expect us to do with this i nformation or whether or not this will come up again at some point.
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Christian
Rookie
Boo! Made you look.
Posts: 9
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Post by Christian on Nov 11, 2005 14:15:19 GMT -5
If I were to find out that my best friend of five years had written a note to someone else that 'she doubted my mental stability' I would not take it too seriously. 5 years ago my friend didn't know me. She didn't understand me and she was really just another stranger. I'm sure my friend would feel extremely bad if I would have ever found that note but it would not bother me. I would assume that Goren understands and I didn't see any disgust in his eyes. I saw shock but not disgust. I saw the 'I'm lucky you withdrew your letter' as an act of forgiveness without actually saying 'You are forgiven'. I guess it's just all open to interpretation.
He flashed a badge. I understand that it could easily be a fake but some people are easily fooled. Most people view the police as enforcers of law, who follow the law, and put away people who don't. They are portrayed as heros and it's a stereotype, I know. She saw the badge. It looked real. She assumed he was a good guy. And you know what happens when you assume.
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Post by Observer2 on Nov 11, 2005 19:42:15 GMT -5
~ Warning to Metella: if a detailed analysis of gestures, expressions and body language still grosses you out and ruins scenes for you, please skip this post. The short version is, I don’t think Goren was disgusted with Eames, I do think hearing about that letter was painful for him, for a couple of different reasons – but I don’t think it’s a big deal between them at this point. (And, in case you still wonder, actually, it most definitely *is* possible to really enjoy a show and be emotionally involved in it, and still be able to describe gestures and expressions in detail and explore what they mean. ) NicoleMarie, I can understand why you might interpret Goren’s expression at the end of the courtroom scene as disgust – you’re right, there’s no hint of a smile there, and the way the shadows are falling on his face could make it look as though there were a faint tension in the muscles that produce an expression of disgust. but I went back and double-checked, and it still looks to me as though it’s only shadows. There doesn’t appear to be any actual tension in those muscles. He appears to be keeping his face carefully neutral – an effective defense mechanism for hiding vulnerability, and one that would make sense with his backstory. He actually seemed to drop into that neutral expression when Eames said the document was a letter that she wrote to her superior office five years ago, and he kept it right through the end of that scene. In the next scene, I think the fact that Eames and Carver had obviously been talking outside of the courtroom is interesting. It may have taken Goren a minute or two after everyone else left to process his reactions to the letter. But I differ with your interpretation of Goren’s body language as he approaches Eames outside of the courtroom. His head is not high and stiff as he steps in front of her. As he steps forward to take Carver’s place his head is slightly forward and down until he looks up to meet her eyes. He continues to meet her eyes, his expression soft, with just a hint of a smile, until she starts to apologize. That’s when he pulls his head back and then turns aside, shaking his head slightly – a rejection of her need to apologize, not a rejection of her. He gets a hint of a smile again, as he says, “I *am* an acquired taste.” But as you mentioned, at that moment he’s fiddling with his jacket, and not looking directly at her... and there may be a somewhat rueful or ironic quality to the smile. He’s a bit uncomfortable – maybe even a bit embarrassed – because he knows it’s true. At least as a cop, he’s odd, and he knows it. He may not care what most people think about that, but there are some people whose opinions matter – and Eames tops the list. He knows her well enough to know how much of an ‘old school,’ conventional, second-generation (at least) cop she was when they were first partnered. If he was surprised that she ever wrote such a letter, he knows he shouldn’t be. And he knows he’s lucky she withdrew it. One of the nicest touches of this episode is that he tells her so – and not just with words. He waves off her need to apologize, and with a bit of a smile he acknowledges, “I *am* an acquired taste.” And he starts to walk away – a natural reaction, to give them both a little space after an intense moment. But he turns back and drops the smile – no diffusing humor in this moment. As he says, “I’m lucky you withdrew the letter,” he meets her eyes with a completely unguarded look, and his voice drops into a serious, direct tone. It’s brief, and seems like a small thing; but it’s an emotionally powerful thing to do at that moment – a direct demonstration that he is still willing to be open and unguarded with her and a reassurance that their relationship is okay. He gave her that reassurance in a way that stayed within her framework of maintaining a professional demeanor and never letting too much emotion show, and yet it was a way that made his feelings very clear. Eames may not have had as hard a time as Goren did, finding a cop who would be willing to be her partner – but I doubt she ever in her career could have found one who had both Goren’s amazing lack of gender bias and his understanding of her as a person – to say nothing of his effectiveness as a partner, and the kind of connection and communication they have. It seems to me that she’s also lucky that she withdrew that letter. And I think she knows it, too.
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