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Post by Cassie on Nov 8, 2005 19:19:45 GMT -5
I do agree on the mother-twist. I don't think it was something that needed to be done. It was the only thing in the ep. that I thought was overkill. Hi Christian, I have been thinking about the mom for the last couple of days. Originally I found it hard to believe, but the more I thought about it. I could see the mom taking it out on the young girl. All those years of being married to the judge. and knowing that her son and husband both had sex with her.. In her mind, she had to blame the girl, not the son or her husband. Could the girl in her drunken stupor have said something to the mom? to upset her even more? And if I am correct, didn't Goren say to her that she wanted to set her husband up for the murder, so she could get her son away from the judge's influence.
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noc
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 127
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Post by noc on Nov 8, 2005 19:24:27 GMT -5
Thanks Cassie and Christian. My thoughts on the mother conclusion weren't as well formed as yours. Thanks again.
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Christian
Rookie
Boo! Made you look.
Posts: 9
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Post by Christian on Nov 8, 2005 19:32:59 GMT -5
That's what I was originally thinking. When I saw the mother at the door when the press was attacking the dad I thought "Maybe she did it." But then it got down to the last ten minutes and...I don't know. It just seemed like it was shoved in and they could have done without it. It was definitely believable because I know that the mother alluded to the fact that she couldn't get a divorce because she would end up with nothing. I just...the episode would have been just as good without the twist but it far from ruined it.
Does that make any sense?
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Post by Jefferaldo on Nov 9, 2005 0:37:12 GMT -5
Colm Meaney's voice reminds me of Alfred Molinas.... Especially "The car will be here in 15 minutes"
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Post by Observer2 on Nov 9, 2005 1:14:28 GMT -5
Thanks to all those who helped clarify the meaning of “Ocean’s 2” for me. Techguy, your summing it up as "“there goes our mini Rat Pack of 2" referring to fellow Sinatra fans Goren and Logan.” certainly sounds like Eames’ style. I agree with much of what others have said, especially about the quality of acting in this episode. Superb acting is SOP for the regulars, but I agree with someone up-thread who mentioned how great *all* the guest stars were. And I suspect the director deserves some kudos, as well. The scene with the judge, the mother and Ethan in the kitchen is a good example. Both Ethan’s and the mother’s complex reactions in that scene encouraged an interpretation that helped reinforce the judge as a suspect; and yet, once the truth was known, their reactions made perfect sense. I agree with what several others have already said – I really hope they do this kind of two-hour, four detective episodes at least once a season. A couple of people were wondering about the location of Carmel Ridge. I did a little research after the first mention of Carmel Ridge, and I strongly suspect that Carmel Ridge is located in Carmel, NY, or possibly in the neighboring town of Carmel Lake. They’re located around 50 miles from NYC, which is about right for a once-a-week visit. It also fits with the scene in this episode, where Goren says he’ll be there that night. It’s far enough away that he couldn’t just take an hour or so in the middle of the work day to go check on his mom, but he could drive there after work. ...Both VVDO and KE showed what if I didn't know better was true emotion when dealing with the phone call about his mom and her testifying on the stand...beautiful acting on both their parts!! Those were true emotions. Believe me, if they weren’t, I wouldn’t bother watching this series. No matter how good the writing is, I simply can’t stomach actors who tell me one thing with their words and conscious expressions, when they’re really feeling something else, and therefore expressing something else with their unconscious affect. Actors like D’Onofrio and Erbe are able to immerse themselves so fully in their characters’ experience that they feel and express their characters’ reactions down to unconscious levels. I was worried from the interview with Vincent that we were going to see too much of a personal side, but I don't think we got to find out anything new other than that his brother has a gambling problem and Bobby doesn't help him, right? Well, we learned that his brother has a gambling problem, and we learned a few painful bits about the dynamics of his family system. But as for Goren not helping him... remember that this ‘information’ came from a mother who, when lucid, is probably carrying a lot of guilt (with the attendant need to displace that guilt onto someone else), and has one son who has managed to overcome the chaos and trauma of his childhood enough to be both stable and successful. In my experience with such mothers, that means she considers it his job to somehow rescue the son who has not managed that feat. My guess is that “...will not lift a hand to help...” probably translates to “refuses to rescue him, enable him or lend him money,” rather than what most of us might mean by “refuses to help him.” Remember, in Gemini, when Spence was first talking about Brent’s problems, it was when he started to say, “I tried...” that Goren cut him off by saying, “We know how it is with brothers...” and making an averting gesture with his hand. I expect that Goren has made a whole lot more heartfelt effort to genuinely help his brother than Spence could ever imagine. Catbird: you said, “I liked the interaction of lawyer and supervisor: "I can promote you right now!" "I've never seen myself as management material."” I also liked that scene, and I liked the fact that Carver went directly to the DA and asked him straight up if that was what was going on. However, I want to point out that you misquoted Carver a bit – and in this case I think it makes a real difference. “Management material” is a very specific phrase, and for someone to say that they don’t see themselves as “management material” would mean that they don’t think they have the qualifications to be in management. Carver didn’t say that. He said he didn’t see himself as management. He’s not saying he’s not qualified for the position, only that he prefers staying at the level where he’s doing a significant part of the work himself, rather than wanting to move to the level where he’s doing more managing of other people while they do the work. As others have pointed out, I think this episode gave us a lot of insight into Carver’s character – something SenGupta has been good at from the first season on. Other people have already mentioned many of the great scenes in this episode, so I’ll try not to be too repetitious. But I have to say that the entire sequence, starting with the call about Goren’s mother and ending with the three of them walking out of the judge’s office and Carver saying, “Nice work, Detective,” – that whole sequence was exceptionally well done. And of all the looks I’ve ever seen on Goren’s face, I think the scariest was when he was looking at the judge as the judge was describing what he did with the girl. Don’t let Goren’s stillness in that moment fool you. That was the moment when I really saw the depth of what he was feeling. And the judge didn’t even know yet that Goren had just destroyed him. Something that no one has mentioned, and that I find rather endearing, is the fact that Goren tends to seem a bit uncomfortable when he suddenly finds himself talking about explicit sexual stuff with Eames. After they heard about the clips from the missing girl’s friends, as Goren lays out the connection with one of the text messages, when he gets to the place where he has to mention the clips, he says the guy “ probably left the... [hesitate, look away, take a breath, cross arms, lick lips, blink] ... probably left the clips there for her.” I seem to remember a similar, if less pronounced, reaction in Shibboleth, when they were going over the crime scene and Goren found himself describing the perp masturbating in various locations around the room. By the time he was describing it a second time, when he had the mannequin set up, he was prepared and talked about it in a very clinical way. But that first time, with Eames, I noticed some indications that he was uncomfortable talking about that part of it. I think it’s a charming little reaction.
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Post by Patcat on Nov 9, 2005 8:13:28 GMT -5
I think Goren has immense respect for Eames and is probably enormously grateful to her. He's also courteous to women generally--he's usually courteous to anyone he doesn't think a suspect or lying witness--so his moments of discomfort don't strike me as patronizing or overprotective. I saw ZOONOTIC last night, and thought (and rather wished) that Goren was about to go after the slimy vet when the vet dissed Eames. Of course, she handled it extremely well (I want to be as tough as Alex Eames.)
As to the brother--there simply may have come a point where Goren, for his sanity or his job's sake, had to cut him out of his life. And frequently in situations like this, the child who takes on the role of caretaker is, oddly enough, give less attention and affection than the siblings who are away from the parent.
Patcat
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Post by E. McCoy on Nov 9, 2005 8:18:37 GMT -5
Patcat
I must agree. I would guess Goren had to "let" his brother go. After all he is probably the sole person taking care of (paying for) his mother's care. So to take on a brother with his own issues was probably too much to bear for him.
Which brings me to Goren's sanity which you also brought up. I wonder if some of his being an "aquired taste" is not a mental illness rearing it's ugly head. I doubt the powers that be at Law and Order would delve into that, and I hope they don't, but its just a thought.
E. McCoy (aka Courtney)
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Post by willow2tree on Nov 9, 2005 9:16:19 GMT -5
Hi NicoleMarie! You had some great points, even though I have to agree to disagree. I also watch SVU (and mothership) pretty faithfully. I think both SVU and CI are emotional, just in different ways. SVU is in your face emotional, CI is in your gut emotional, at least for me. I did hate the fact that in the last 10 minutes they decided to change suspects AGAIN and have the mother be the killer. Maybe that's because the judge was just so slimy, I really wanted him to go down in a big way. Let him show what a stud he is to Bubba in the slammer! I have to think, the judge will still do time because of the rape, won't he? And will the son Ethan do time because he didn't do anything to help Tiana when she hit her head and died and then covered it up? I would think it would be a threefur, with all of them in jail. What does anyone else think?
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digresser
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 149
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Post by digresser on Nov 9, 2005 15:19:39 GMT -5
I agree, willow2tree. I think all three of them will have those "matching jumpsuits" that Eames mentioned.
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Post by Sirenna on Nov 9, 2005 17:44:10 GMT -5
Thanks for the head's up, techguy. I don't get USA but I'll be re-taping it on Saturday. I hope they stick to the posted schedule.
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Post by janetcatbird on Nov 9, 2005 17:52:28 GMT -5
Observer, Sorry about the Carver misquote! This is what happens when people yell and scream in the dorm hallways.
I appreciate your point about Goren "not helping his brother" being part of the judge's smear campaign. My aunt (Mom's sister) has made, to put it bluntly, some absolutely idiotic and stupid choices in her life. I'm sure some of it can be traced to their own childhood which was less than ideal, Mom had some troubles of her own to work through. But she can't blame all of this on her formative years. My mother won't completely cut off contact with her, but it is very limited and Mom has had to go through a lot to realize the difference between helping and enabling. Mom knows that she can't rush in and make everything OK for the sister and solve all her problems. It tears her up, but she knows what she can or can't do.
Goren has probably had to go through something very similar, made even more complicated and painful by the father who abandoned them and a seriously ill mother. So, in that at least I can definitely see where Goren is coming from. I'd imagine Goren's impulse to rush in and fix things--good lord, he's a detective and a cop--is probably even stronger and more difficult to overcome than my family's limited experience.
As to Goren being uncomfortable talking explicitly about sex, a lot of people are (me included). However, I don't know if Goren is as uncomfortable talking about that stuff as he is concerned with people's reactions. For him it seems to be just part of the investigation and aspects of people's psychology. His halting and pausing in this episode, to me, seemed to be a thinking-out-loud thing (he's done it before, so people can quit harping or Barek) as he's eliminating possibilities as to how things happened. He can be self-conscious at times, and Observer pointed out how sensitive he was at Eames' comment about showing off a couple weeks ago--which I still think of as a friendly tease, but we won't get into that. If people think he's a showoff for just doing his job, what will they think if he seems to enjoy talking about such icky stuff? But it is kind of amusing and cute in that sort of umm, can I say what I mean without anyone freaking out? Or something along those lines. (Did you catch Deakins' face at the groin hernia or whatever it was? I love Jamey Sheridan in this role.) I was hoping to see a shot of Eames' quiet amusement at the guys awkwardness, just a smirk or stifled chuckle. But that's one scenario Goren won't be reenacting any time soon!
Still haven't reviewed the tape, but in retrospect I'm thinking that Eames' near-tears on the stand were almost out of character. I was so overwhelmed at Erbe's performance that I didn't immediately realize Since when is Eames such a ninny? It would be much more in character to get angry and snappish at the lawyer in her response, not weepy. If she's had to keep her professional cool at brutal crime scenes, nasty perps, poor kids as victims,a nd presumably other cross-examinations it doesn't make sense she'd come close to caving now. Especially since I get the impression that Eames refuses to show weaknesses in front of professionals like cops or lawyers for fear of being stigmatized as a sappy emotional woman who can't handle a man's job. But considering that Goren was right there in the courtroom with that expression on his face...yeah, that'd definitely play a part. Obviously it wasn't so serious she had to tell him about it, some things are best and safest left unsaid, and I'm sure she was hoping to keep the letter that way.
(By the way, Nicole Marie, while viewer fans may not agree with the wording of the letter I do think it in keeping with a traditional, street-based cop's view of some nutter coming out of left field. She still thinks he's a bit odd, she just recognizes that his quirks are part of his crime-solving. Deakins has made comments about the Goren show, Carver quips about his "obsessive nature", and those are the ones that respect him! I think Eames originally meant it as "How can I work with this guy?" and it was the judge who turned it into character assassination. And I don't think the show's writers meant it to discredit Eames. Your remark about the Goren lovers confuses me. Some may be rabid fans, but I don't think I've seen anybody talk ugly about Eames. Even in the first couple years, if people snarked anything it was how little she did before the writers got a grip that she was competent and capable her own self.)
But back to the witness stand. To the credit of the writers and Erbe, Eames remained professional. She focused on Goren's investigative skills and his work as a police officer. Other shows would have had her really start sobbing and exclaim "Bobby, I'm so sorry, I didn't mean it, please forgive me!" and burst into a tearful rendition of "Something Wonderful" from "The King and I". I was never worried about that happening.
On a slightly off-topic, is it too much for Goren to acknowledge that Eames has a first name? Maybe they try to keep it cool casual professionals, and perhaps it's Eames' who is insistant about separating work and personal. But for crying out loud, I don't think that saying "Alex" during an intense time is soapy or shippy. If she can call him "Bobby" regarding Croyden or his mother, I don't think a "Thanks Alex" would do any harm.
The scene where Goren gets a call from the center, when he's rushing out to confront the judge and she tries to warn him about doing anything stupid, I was struck by Goren halting to turn around and face her, raise his hands in exasperation and a gesture to calm himself down. "Eames--it's my Mom", and then out he goes. Not to get too gushy, but it is a sign of the partnership bond that he trusts her to understand and recognize what he's going through. Especially telling was how he stopped and faced her. If it's someone you're not exactly close to, aren't you more likely to just yell over your shoulder as you keep going? Obviously this relationship is significant enough for him to have to acknowledge her. And of course, good partner that she is, Eames knows when to leave him be and when to chase after to make sure he'll be OK. Notice how she didn't interrupt him with the judge, but watched like a hawk and made her presence known: I ain't got a dog in this fight, but I'll back you if needed and I won't sit back and let you hurt yourself.
On a superficial note, I was not so icked by Colm Meaney losing the shirt as a lot of people were. I was more grossed out by the fact that he was in the kitchen when he did it. But then, my Dad mows our grass himself (it's safe to say he's not exactly a stud) and living in the South you see all sorts of people in various stages of undress during the summer heat, so you can't let yourself get too squeamish. Meaney isn't a sleek and sexy man--not by a long shot-- but I think most of us have seen worse. Besides, it's not like we got a full shot, just the side of the arm and his back.
--Catbird
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Post by Sirenna on Nov 9, 2005 17:59:29 GMT -5
Something that no one has mentioned, and that I find rather endearing, is the fact that Goren tends to seem a bit uncomfortable when he suddenly finds himself talking about explicit sexual stuff with Eames. I've always found these moments to be the funniest in the show. I see Goren talking about the most sensistive issues like menstruating, masturbating etc with professional abandonement. He might have been embarrassed in the beginning. You often catch things I miss, Observer. It's often Eames who takes a figurative step back, in these situations, by pulling a face that says "is this what he's like at parties?!" or making a smart remark about it. He might have been embarrassed at one time but I don't think she ever was!
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Post by blucougar57 on Nov 9, 2005 19:40:11 GMT -5
Observer, On a slightly off-topic, is it too much for Goren to acknowledge that Eames has a first name? Maybe they try to keep it cool casual professionals, and perhaps it's Eames' who is insistant about separating work and personal. But for crying out loud, I don't think that saying "Alex" during an intense time is soapy or shippy. If she can call him "Bobby" regarding Croyden or his mother, I don't think a "Thanks Alex" would do any harm. --Catbird In four seasons of Criminal Intent, I am aware of Goren calling Eames by her first name ONCE, and that was not even directly to her face. It was in Faith, in season 1, when they go to the university and Eames plays at being a student working on her thesis. I always got the sense that Goren always called her Eames out of respect and professionalism. He sees her as an equal, but also, he doesn't call any other cops by their first names and so he doesn't with her, either. I distinctly remember a literature class at university, where the lecturer (a man) told us to refer to female writers by their surnames, the same as we do with the male writers. Ie, call Jane Austen by her last name, as we do with Keats, Shakespeare, etc. Because to refer to them by their first names is an insult to them, and saying they are not equal with their male counterparts. That stayed with me, and it seems to me that that could be Goren's line of thought. He would call any male colleague by their last name, so he does so with Eames because he doesn't want to disrespect her.
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Post by LOCIfan on Nov 9, 2005 20:07:32 GMT -5
Still haven't reviewed the tape, but in retrospect I'm thinking that Eames' near-tears on the stand were almost out of character. I was so overwhelmed at Erbe's performance that I didn't immediately realize Since when is Eames such a ninny? It would be much more in character to get angry and snappish at the lawyer in her response, not weepy. If she's had to keep her professional cool at brutal crime scenes, nasty perps, poor kids as victims,a nd presumably other cross-examinations it doesn't make sense she'd come close to caving now. Especially since I get the impression that Eames refuses to show weaknesses in front of professionals like cops or lawyers for fear of being stigmatized as a sappy emotional woman who can't handle a man's job. But considering that Goren was right there in the courtroom with that expression on his face...yeah, that'd definitely play a part. Obviously it wasn't so serious she had to tell him about it, some things are best and safest left unsaid, and I'm sure she was hoping to keep the letter that way. I felt her reaction was devestatingly real, given the fact that she was entirely blind-sided. A letter written five years ago, ultimately withdrawn and probably only ever discussed with Deakins would've been easily forgotten. But the moment she saw it, it was as though she'd been slapped in the face. A private moment from her past was being publicly exposed and she wasn't prepared to deal with the emotions and memories it brought up for her right there and then -- which, after all, are pretty personal. The letter obviously brought up the way she once felt about her partner, and the things she wrote might even have had negative consequences for Goren, had she not decided to withdraw the letter. It was also, clearly, something she'd never discussed with Goren. Cops have a pretty strict code when it comes to loyalty to a partner, and the fact that her letter (which she might see as a small betrayal of that partnership) was being used to discredit her partner in court had to be a difficult and entirely unexpected pill to swallow. BUT, given that she was on the stand, under oath, she had no choice other than to pull herself together, hold back and go on. Being ambushed like that, I found the shiny, tear-brimmed eyes absolutely dead-on. And the deliberate way she delivered her explanation about how her opinion of Goren has changed was perfect.
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Post by Summerfield on Nov 9, 2005 20:48:48 GMT -5
I took Eames' reaction as maybe playing on the sympathy of the jury. I'm sure she's had to testify before and she's learned how to play to a jury. I think she played it right. If she'd come out swinging, her "explanation" wouldn't have sounded so sincere.
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