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Post by SarahIvy on Oct 27, 2006 13:52:15 GMT -5
THe orchestration, choreography and timing are impeccable, one of the many pleasures of this vintage CI episode. Absolutely. This episode has remained one of my longterm favorites. No matter how many times I see it, that final interrogation is so perfectly done I get chills each and every time, and find myself unable to take my eyes off the screen.
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Post by ragincajun on May 11, 2007 16:49:53 GMT -5
I always wondered about the kicking of the door in, she was going around the back to find a way in the house, and he just kicks the door in, shouldn't have kicking the door in been a last resort?
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effie
Detective
off chasing plot bunnies...
Posts: 264
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Post by effie on Aug 3, 2007 9:46:32 GMT -5
I saw about half of this last night ... kept falling asleep as this was aired in the wee sma's...
I have always loved this episode for a number of reasons, and I happen to think that this aria has got to be up there with the top five best ones (personal faves anyway...)
But what struck me was the added resonance post season 6 and "Endgame" when watching Goren crawl into the mind of Jay Lippman the serial killer and reduce him to a quivering crying mass... I'm not sure Goren was ever again quite so physically in the face of the perp...
And as someone upthread said, this was an episode marking a change in the Deakins/Goren (and Eames) relationship... but I also wondered if this didn't mark a change in the Carver/Goren relationship. Carver seemed to spend much of the episode shooting down every one of Goren and Eames' theories... but after standing behind the mirror and watching Goren decimate this man... how much would that have changed Carver's perception of Bobby -- who turned out to be right about the murderer...
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Post by DonnaJo on Aug 3, 2007 10:07:46 GMT -5
Good point effie, about Carver's opinion of Goren forever being altered by viewing his encounter with Lippman. How could anyone not be impressed by Goren's ability to break down such an intelligent, self-controlled individual so quickly & completely? Goren needs to show Ross this capability, which he hasn't this season. His interrogations this season are weak, ESPECIALLY compared to ones like this one, with the killer's lately practically begging to confess. I know he's under the weather, but Jees.... And I was wrong, Susan Misner is not the ex in the "faux" mink, although they do look a bit alike (discussion from another thread). Maybe it's me, but the Goren in Yesterday is much more like the Goren of Season 2, not Season 1. He's very contained physically, even the door kick is all very controlled... all business, not dramatic. And there's a lot of acting with his eyes & face. He's also very soft spoken & introspective throughout. Eames too, upthread someone mentions her innocent look. She's all big eyes & soft facial features....very nice. Not the at times "too tough cookie" we've been seeing this season.
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Post by Cassie on Aug 3, 2007 10:43:41 GMT -5
I saw the last 15 minutes of that last night. It's one of my favorite episodes.
I love it when Jay says "be a good boy, keep a neat house" and then he adjusts his glasses.
I liked how Eames and Goren worked the interrogation of Jay, with how she blocked Jay's view from Goren. The way they give the nods to each other
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Post by diablodeblanco on Aug 3, 2007 11:00:45 GMT -5
Maybe Carver came to admire Goren's talent as an interrogator. Perhaps Carver saw an ability akin to that which a saavy prosecutor would use to get a hostile witness or perp to give up the "goods" and after witnessing this, came to see Goren as someone who was excellent at his job. I think Carver understood the better a detective did his job, the better Carver could do his.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Aug 3, 2007 11:42:27 GMT -5
I saw the last 15 minutes of that last night. It's one of my favorite episodes. I love it when Jay says "be a good boy, keep a neat house" and then he adjusts his glasses. I liked how Eames and Goren worked the interrogation of Jay, with how she blocked Jay's view from Goren. The way they give the nods to each other Removing Jay from participating in the discussion prevented him from manipulating things. It took his power away. Making him feel powerless and with no control (the handcuffs chained to his waist, no glasses, disheveled appearance and telling him where to sit) began to take Jay's strength and make it his weakness. No control, no power= vulnerable/weak. Jay preyed on weakness in others. It made him feel strong. Now he was on the receiving end of someone (Goren) systematically stripping him of what he stripped from some of those around him. In the room his attorney had power, Eames had power and Goren had even more power. Jay had none....and this shook him to his core. Goren telling Jay he now had him sitting where HE wanted him to sit as Eames smoothly slipped into Jay's chair, effectively cut off his retreat or any attempt to recoup a little power, trapped him. It also hammered home that Eames and Goren were a team. Goren not allowing Jay's attorney, his only ally in the room and Jay's teammate, from looking at evidence showed Jay just who the alpha dog was and just who was calling the shots. That little move served to isolate and weaken Jay even more. Soon cracks began to form in Jay's mental armor as Goren applied pressure. Goren crushed Jay's attempt to turn and speak quietly to Eames. It was a futile attempt to divide the Eames/Goren team and at the same time to snatch some of his power back. It essentially backfired. Goren once again showed his power and control of the room by forcibly turning Jay's chair, with him in it, and moved in face to face with Jay. Goren then dismantled Jay bit by bit until he was completely exposed. All the while Carver watching from behind the glass. That had to be one of the better arias.
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Post by ragincajun on Aug 3, 2007 13:04:43 GMT -5
I love it when Jay says "be a good boy, keep a neat house" and then he adjusts his glasses. I have often wondered about that that statement Cassie, if given the time, if they would have dug into Jay's history, I wonder If that was something his mom, maybe told him over and over as a child. " Be a good boy Jay and Keep a neat house." edited for fyi-- the lady in the sable coat- was the secretary in "brothers keeper".
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Post by diablodeblanco on Aug 3, 2007 13:30:22 GMT -5
I love it when Jay says "be a good boy, keep a neat house" and then he adjusts his glasses. I have often wondered about that that statement Cassie, if given the time, if they would have dug into Jay's history, I wonder If that was something his mom, maybe told him over and over as a child. " Be a good boy Jay and Keep a neat house." From the looks of Jay's wife she was rather "neat" herself. To the point of looking rigid and put together so tightly that she squeaked when she walked. edited for fyi-- the lady in the sable coat- was the secretary in "brothers keeper".
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Post by DonnaJo on Aug 4, 2007 9:39:15 GMT -5
My opinion is that Ricky was pushed off the building by Jay, who lured him to the very edge. It wouldn't have taken alot, just a little shove. And Goren & Eames must believe that too; they tell his sister that it wasn't a suicide, he was murdered. I noticed something about Goren & Eames while revisiting this episode, something that they don't do as much anymore. That is, they constantly look at each other. As they talk with others, especially witnesses, quick, but obvious glances are shared, practically every few seconds. Enough that i noticed it. I wonder if that was deliberate, meaning written in the script, or just because the two actors are still learning to get cues from each? And on the same note, do they do it less because it's no longer appropriate after all of these years, or because VDO & Erbe are so in tune with each other, checking isn't needed? Or am I over analyzing the whole thing?
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Post by musicwench on Aug 4, 2007 15:45:11 GMT -5
I noticed something about Goren & Eames while revisiting this episode, something that they don't do as much anymore. That is, they constantly look at each other. As they talk with others, especially witnesses, quick, but obvious glances are shared, practically every few seconds. Enough that i noticed it. I wonder if that was deliberate, meaning written in the script, or just because the two actors are still learning to get cues from each? And on the same note, do they do it less because it's no longer appropriate after all of these years, or because VDO & Erbe are so in tune with each other, checking isn't needed? Or am I over analyzing the whole thing? Over analyzing is what we do here, though, isn't it? ;-) Don't know why it would be that they don't do that as much any more but there was an interview with VDO where he did say that he and KE have been connecting the last two seasons in ways they'd never imagined they could. Could be they don't need the visual cues any more after having worked together so long. Now I have to go back and watch to see this glancing at each other thing. LOL
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Post by Cassie on Aug 4, 2007 18:47:11 GMT -5
Could the visual clues, be more for the audience in the early days? In "The Extra Man" while chatting with the red headed woman who entered into the dead mans hotel room. Goren nods to Eames for him to do the talking. "Pilgrim" he nods again for Eames to take the father out of the bedroom so he can talk to Ethan's (Rider Storms) mother.
Eames is the senior partner, but Goren leads the way, at least in the early days
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Post by DonnaJo on Aug 5, 2007 12:51:10 GMT -5
I'm sure you're right, Cassie. I imagine it was done for several reasons, for the viewers as well as for the actors.
I find it endearing to watch the young & eager Goren & Eames team at work. They had an enthusiasm for the job that I just don't see anymore. It's not that they don't care, they do. It's just that the novelty for the job has worn off, and it shows. But that cannot be helped, as that is realistic & natural and to be expected.
Strangely enough, I started the position I have now in September of 2001, same time that CI started. I know that I don't react to things the same way as I did 6 years ago. Experience takes the place of enthusiasm.
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Post by Techguy on Aug 7, 2007 21:47:36 GMT -5
I think Ricky jumping and Jay pushing him off the roof occurred simultaneously. Ricky was very weak, very impressionable, and ripe for suggestion by Jay. Jay pushed at the precise moment Ricky fell back to emphasize that he, Jay, was finally rid of Ricky's blackmail for more money. And just as in baseball when a tie in a bang bang play at a base goes to the more aggressive player, ie the runner, it's Jay's pushing that is the crucial act. Jay is a murderer, no question about that for me.
DonnaJo, while I agree with you about how Goren and Eames have matured and therefore changed over the past 6 seasons, I still miss the expression of their enthusiasm for the job they do. That's a major part of what I enjoyed from previous seasons of CI that I felt was lacking in Season 6. Perhaps the experienced (and jaded) detectives don't quite have the appeal for me as the younger, greener, less experienced detectives still finding their stride and comfort zones with one another. Season 6 was very dark and bleak overall, a tone that was definitely reflected in the behavior of the detectives. And like you, I've been doing the same work for several years and experience has definitely taken the place of my enthusiasm. I wish I could get some of that "old me" back again.
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Post by DonnaJo on Aug 8, 2007 18:56:53 GMT -5
Something that Goren says in his final aria to Jay Lippman doesn't make sense to me. He asks Lippman, "what was disturbing to you? Was it that Morissey had something you didn't? A love that you never had. A love that you would do anything to get?"
What "love" is he talking about? It sounds like he's jealous that Morissey had the love of his sister, a sister who he cared about & who cared about him. That particular comment has always bothered me, it's a strange thing to say.
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