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Post by justice lady on May 15, 2007 23:57:01 GMT -5
Loved this episode for all of the reasons that have already been posted. I am hoping the few posts that mentioned the VDO may not be back next season is just a silly rumor that is nothing more than hearsay. I would be so sad without Bobby on the show. Speaking only for myself, he is definitely the center of the show. Other characters and actors are great but without VDO/Bobby Goren it just wouldn' t be the same. Just wanted to ask/comment on one technical matter. If Bobby was born in 1963, he would have been 27-28 when he served in the first gulf war, which I believe has been established in a couple of episodes throughout the years. This is pretty old for someone that wasn't career army, which it has always appeared to me, he was not. Does anyone know the back story on this better than I remember it?
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Post by numberonefan on May 16, 2007 0:11:16 GMT -5
I am so happy to see and read all of the post about this episode. This episode was incrediible. Regardles of whether you loved or hated the storyline, you have to agree that vincent and rita moreno acted their respective a%$*@ off -- that was an awesome display of real acting. PLEASE can someone comment on Vincent's appearance. He is really really getting into the character. the weight gain, unshaven look, the mismatching pants-jacket, tacky tie-- note the comparison with his brother's look. Vincent looks like a real, gritty detective. --PS thank you. without you all, i would have no one else to share my enthusiasm with about this show
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Post by Metella on May 16, 2007 6:09:16 GMT -5
I thought the episode was a fine episode (not Grrrreat) but just fine.
Moreno - yes, excellent.
the Frank character, very believeable when he asked about his possible inheritance - he was ashamed, but just like a drug addict - he had to ask about that money - it could be his next fix.
The Plot - Oh PLUEZ. It was horrible. I saw all of it coming & not only that (because that CAN work sometimes) it was again - Goren out of character. Pathetic. This is what happens when you bring on writers who don't have anything vested in the characters. TRASH LIKE THIS. Goren may have done the twitch thing when he was first seeing the picture could be his mother ...... but his is too old, was too intelligent, and was too manipulative to have been so bothered by the hint that the killer may have been his biological father. Unimaginative, overdone and out of place. Just the rape of the mother would have been enough - but no, let's push it over the frickin edge.
I am disgusted at this "twist" in the series.
Too bad, because, overall the episode was just fine.
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Post by Metella on May 16, 2007 6:47:27 GMT -5
Oh I just thought of something else - the mother mentioned she "knew" about Mark and what he had done ..... so when she earlier mentioned the visit on death row .... did that have more than the double meaning?? Did she know that the man she loved was dying at the same time she was dying? Even if that love turned to shame and or hate?
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Post by DonnaJo on May 16, 2007 7:09:56 GMT -5
Someone earlier asked about Goren's facial expression at the end of the " big scene" with his mother (I could watch that one again and again and never get tired of it -- WOW!). I thought VDO's performance conveyed a LOT of things as he looked at his dying mother, but I saw intense love above all else and despite everything. And I felt like he was starting to say good-bye too. That was me, questioning what that expression was at the tail end of the Brady confrontation with Mom. Yes, unconditional love above all else. A deliberate calmness to help her calm herself down. A resignation that her death is truly imminent. I would have loved some time cards in this episode. How long from that scene to her death? I'm guessing a few days, but it could have been that day or the next. I even wondered if she passed right then & there, after she saw that her son forgave her & loved her? Did anyone else notice love at certain times in Scheider's eyes when talking with Bobby? The man did actually believe that Goren was his son. Putting his hand over his was another sign of affection. Also, the "Mr. Brady, Mr. Brady, what am I a teacher? Please, call me Mark!" This was directed right at Goren. He couldn't bear such formality from his only "family." Finally, I found Frances resignation about her death out of character. If she's the fighter Goren claims, she shouldn't have taken herself off of chemo, especially against her son's wishes. Even if that part was true, that she had decided to let nature take it's course, the words "I only have a few weeks." would never have been verbalized by this fighter. My experience is that people like that who face death don't utter such phrases, although they may be thinking them.
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Post by diablodeblanco on May 16, 2007 7:12:19 GMT -5
Since Frances knew Bobby was dividing his time between her and Brady, it makes it even more cutting that when he returned to visit her she made the remark about the return of the prodigal son. (her son/his son)
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Post by Sirenna on May 16, 2007 7:54:38 GMT -5
I don't know if this means anything other than a genealogy (I refuse to make allusions out of thin ice) but Wally first offered up Matthew, no acts and then changed his mind and instead gave Mark the other passage on confessing before death.
The Matthew chapter begins with a list of the patriarchal lineage of David and the lineage of Christ ending with a this, a journey:
"Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Christ." (New International version)
As bleak as the episode was I see a resurrection from the Goren, we left; fractured, wounded and alone. I think he'll survive to become a new man and a better detective.
Also I wonder what to make of Wally's knowledge of Goren's lineage. If Mark told him bluntly, then Wally would not need to choose that passage for him. If Mark didn't tell him but Wally somehow suspected it, then what was Wally's motive in choosing the Matthew passage (even though he changed his mind) and what might be Wally's motives in continuing his communication with Goren. It may not be nefarious either since I got the impression, that Wally was moved to Pennsylvania a better prison. Maybe Goren had something to do with that?
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Post by Cassie on May 16, 2007 8:47:49 GMT -5
I like your thoughts Sirenna,
Cause after Wally said "Matthew", he then said "Acts" then "Timothy".
1 Timothy 6:12 "Fight the good fight of the faith. Take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made your good confession in the presence of many witnesses."
Yeah... but first you must make a good confession...
Then in the book of "Acts" we are given the gift of "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" which is more wisdom and understanding, and more responsbility
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Post by Patcat on May 16, 2007 9:09:04 GMT -5
Re: Goren's Army career--I can't remember if it was Stephanie Sengtupa or Rene Balcer who commented that Goren left the Army because he grew tired of moving around so much. I've always suspected he also left to take care of his Mom.
The links between the biblical passages are quite interesting.
Brady, I think, is meant to be a very ambiguous character. Can we trust anything he said or did? If he felt any affection for Bobby as a potential son, why did he goad Bobby to kill him? On the other hand, if he felt nothing, why did he send Bobby his long, detailed confession? Kudos to Roy Scheider for his brilliant performance that maintained all of the character's ambiguity.
"Darth Vader Daddy"--love the phrase (g)
I was pleased to note that this story dealt with the death penalty question by putting Brady on Pennsylvania's Death Row. But that means there must have been several long drives for Goren and Eames. What those conversations must have been like.
Patcat
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Post by nwchimom on May 16, 2007 9:32:41 GMT -5
I suspect my DVR cut off the beginning of the show. The first scene I saw started with Bobby and the nurse helping Frances into her bed, and Bobby is telling her she shouldn't give up. I just read a comment here about Frances discontinuing her treatment, and I realized I didn't see a scene matching the cap of Bobby and the nurse walking down a hallway with Frances in her wheelchair, so I assume there was more to the beginning...would someone fill me in on the conversation in the hallway, please?
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effie
Detective
off chasing plot bunnies...
Posts: 264
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Post by effie on May 16, 2007 9:41:34 GMT -5
Re-watching this last night a couple things struck me...
there was some palpable impact/control/chemisty/mojo between Goren and Brady whenever Brady chose to stare Goren down. (or Roy stare down Vince). It was like Brady could see into Goren soul and twist it around with just a look. Very powerful stuff. Which might or might not lead one to think there could be a genetic link between the two.
Also, I love Tony Goldwyn's portrayal of Frank. It's absolutely grey. No black or white. Is Frank a scumbag only after Mommy's money? Is he just concerned that his mom has everything taken care of? Not being able to tell is the result of a terrific performance by a very skilled actor! (and well costumed in green for a money hungry guy...)
And I was struck again by just how messed up the Goren family was. Daddy and Mommy were cheating on each other. Daddy was drinking and gambling, Mommy was nuts. The kids were left alone at 7 and 4 years old to fend for themselves...
Where oh where did Bobby's strength come from??? He seems to be the only family member with any self control. While he's had less of it lately, it's still something to wonder about. He's still clearly got the disrespect for authority "Don't tell me what I think..." but he's managed to channel it into a career with a high profile department...
Wow.
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Post by Summerfield on May 16, 2007 10:34:32 GMT -5
Wow! I really enjoyed this episode and the performances by all. In the hands of lesser talent, this could have gone down the tubes. I knew where they were going, but I didn't care. The ride was well worth it!
I think Goren's background contributes to his strength. I think he's fought like hell all these years not to become any or all of "them."
Could someone tell me what an SRO is? SRO usually refers to standing room only. Is it a really small apartment?
"Mr. Brady, Mr. Brady." "Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!" (Sorry, but that was what I was thinking at that moment).
Brighton Beach was heavily populated by Russian immigrants starting around 1900. A little tid-bit on Goren's ethnicity?
I hated to see Frances die just because I'll miss Rita Moreno. She was terrific and there was such great chemistry between her and VDO.
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effie
Detective
off chasing plot bunnies...
Posts: 264
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Post by effie on May 16, 2007 10:39:11 GMT -5
SRO "Single Room Only"
generally a really cheap hotel.
think of the hotel in "Vacancy"...
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Post by ragincajun on May 16, 2007 10:48:34 GMT -5
I suspect my DVR cut off the beginning of the show. The first scene I saw started with Bobby and the nurse helping Frances into her bed, and Bobby is telling her she shouldn't give up. I just read a comment here about Frances discontinuing her treatment, and I realized I didn't see a scene matching the cap of Bobby and the nurse walking down a hallway with Frances in her wheelchair, so I assume there was more to the beginning...would someone fill me in on the conversation in the hallway, please? All she said in the hallway is the medication was making her sick, she wanted to enjoy the time she had left in her room with out being hooked up to machines and IVs. That was the most of it.( which is believeable my sister n law's father did the same thing, when the chemo wasn't working as well as they thought, he said I want to enjoy my last few weeks or months fishing doing things I enjoy not throwing up and being hooked to IVs and thats what he did.) And her doctor has said in the past her cancer was advanced. Bobby was the one clinging to hope. The begining started with Brady talking with his lawyer, who played in my good name and Crazy. He asked how long he had till his exacution she said 15 days, he had already been there 15 yrs. he was moving closer to the exacution chamber then he asked to speak to Wally, asked him to quote a scripture from the Bible, then wanting to know if he still knew that dective. Another repeat was the Lawyer for the innocent rapist, he played the husband of the woman who wore the fake bomb who planned to run off with dancing donny with cancer. As for knowing who the father is, I hope he lets it go. It doesn't define who he is, both me were losers and jerks. And they are both dead.
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Post by nwchimom on May 16, 2007 11:01:47 GMT -5
Thanks, Ragincajun. And I agree with you about wanting Bobby to let go of the issue of his parentage. At nearly 50 years of age Bobby is who he is, despite his parents. He made himself the man he is today by his choices and actions.
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