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Post by Summerfield on May 16, 2007 11:14:35 GMT -5
Single Room Only...duh You just don't hear that much anymore. Someone earlier mentioned "Your partner, your partner." That annoyed me too! He has a name! Use it!
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effie
Detective
off chasing plot bunnies...
Posts: 264
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Post by effie on May 16, 2007 12:00:37 GMT -5
While I was at work doing other things, my brain has apparently been mulling "Endgame" over ... and something just popped into my head, which I thought I'd share fwiw.
I kept coming back to Eames' "lets go. you have somewhere more important to be" and how she tried to help Bobby. Likewise the Captain WAS trying to help with his "you don't need this in your life right now."
They both tried to help Bobby through this, but he wouldn't let them. And not that we didn't know it was there, but there was very much a sense of Bobby needed to do things his own way. In the midst of all the chaos and uncertainty we saw a man who knows who he is, who was, in his own way, in control, even when it might not seem like it.
"He's not in control of me" "Don't tell me who I am and how I think"
even his tortured "I can't" ... at the end of the day he cannot be other than his true nature...
chip away all the crap that's been thrown at him this season, and on the whole we find a person who is, as Bobby told Benny in "Legion" ... a strong boy, a true boy...
hopefully he can see this too as we move forward into next season...
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Post by Techguy on May 16, 2007 12:33:29 GMT -5
Some things made more of an impression on second viewing. The second time around I caught Wally's 110 days statement--thanks nwchimom for clarifying. Another moment was after Brady's first scrapbook was uncovered, and Ross says pointedly to Goren "He made the opening gambit. Your move" which sets up the rest of the episode for a life-and-death defining chess match between Goren and Brady.
Another thing that impressed me is Eames' emotional detachment which speaks volumes about her relationship with her partner Goren. When Ross initially takes Goren off the case because he's "too close" Eames intervenes and says quite emphatically "I'm not" to convince Ross to allow Goren to stay involved. This response by Eames, in addition to her non-commital response to Goren telling her how his brother had talked her up to their mother and how his mother asked to meet her, tell me Eames views her partnership with Goren as exactly that, perhaps a close friendship. I don't think she could have been so emotionally detached if there was anything more to their relationship than a professional partnership.
I agree with those who wish Goren would not pursue his parentage issues any further. When the dust settles from his mother's death and encounter with Brady, Goren will realize that who is "really" his biological father has not ever and should not define him as a man. Goren is not the son of either Goren Sr. or Brady, at least not in any way that matters. Goren has always been his own person, someone who assumed responsibility for his actions and life choices. He can and will survive--and thrive.
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Post by NicoleMarie on May 16, 2007 12:45:04 GMT -5
He's still clearly got the disrespect for authority "Don't tell me what I think..." I don't think Goren was disrespectful, rather I think he was lashing out at Ross's constant efforts to hinder Goren. I think Ross deserved to have his head bit off. how did we all (shippers and non-shippers) take Eames' expression when Bobby commented that Frank thought she was his girlfriend?? Ha ha. Your brother's crazier than you are.
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Post by nwchimom on May 16, 2007 12:52:00 GMT -5
how did we all (shippers and non-shippers) take Eames' expression when Bobby commented that Frank thought she was his girlfriend?? I forgot to answer this after my second viewing. I took Eames' expression to mean, "Your brother was talking me up? He only saw me that one time and you didn't even really introduce us, why would he be talking me up to your mom? And what's with the laugh, Bobby? If you want me to go meet your mom, then ask me."
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Post by Patcat on May 16, 2007 13:11:59 GMT -5
I also thought that Goren was angry but restrained with his reactions to Ross. If Goren wanted to really have it out with Ross, he would've stood up and attempted to use his size to intimidate Ross. But he didn't, and he didn't raise his voice. His "Don't tell me what I think..." was a statement of fact. Eames, after working with Goren for seven years, MIGHT have the right to speculate about his thoughts. Ross doesn't.
Patcat
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Post by DonnaJo on May 16, 2007 13:31:08 GMT -5
I also felt that Goren was still smarting over Ross' comment in Rocketman, the "so am I, so are you" statement about being angry & obsessive. He sure didn't like Ross labeling him, assuming he knew him. So the "Don't tell me what I think" and "Think that you know me" comments weren't just about Brady, but about the other times that Ross has assumed to know Goren (and had been wrong).
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Post by Metella on May 16, 2007 14:58:19 GMT -5
Was he wrong? I thought he was right. & I do not think it was "bad" that Goren did that - but I do think it was disrespectful. but then the two men don't really respect each other, that is to be expected. I think they are trying to build respect - but are not there - so they can get pissy with each other quickly at this point.
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Post by DonnaJo on May 16, 2007 15:04:35 GMT -5
IMO, He's wrong about Goren being an angry man. Obsessive, yes. We all know that. But I would not label him as an overall angry person. It takes an awful lot for him to blow.
Now Ross, that may be another story....
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Post by ragincajun on May 16, 2007 15:09:36 GMT -5
Goren never told Eames that Mom thought she was his girlfriend. Just that his brother was talking her up and mom wanted to meet her.
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Post by ragincajun on May 16, 2007 15:23:22 GMT -5
It's not that I think Goren/D'Onofrio are not up to the task of moving beyond that -- far from it. But this episode felt too much like an ending. Perhaps a few guest appearances in Season 7 to tie up a few loose ends, but in my gut, Goren (and his soul's interpreter) is gone. VDO, in the past at least, doesn't seem fond of lingering. The last scene, with Bobby in his mother's now empty room, is probably one of his longest shots in which he is all alone, and it is incredibly filled with layered meanings. When he says to the nurse that he would just like to stay a bit longer (another re-watch needed), it sent shivers straight to the vertebrae: wouldn't this be like VDO to give a subtle, wistful pause as a way to say goodbye? After all, CI can still continue (Eames can carry the load, with possibly Logan becoming her partner) and Goren can report in every once in a while. Possible? Just a thought (and a fear...). I don't see a Season 8. Item 2: Captain Ross. I seem to be in the minority here. I did miss the first ten minutes of the episode, so perhaps I'm wrong on this, but the Captain irked me all night. He certainly was realistic enough, but if he says to Eames one more time of "Your partner" -- I hope she sets him straight. Her partner (and a member of HIS squad) has a name. Show enough respect and use it! I don't expect him to say "Bobby"; but you could refer to him as "Goren" instead of the frosty and disdainful tone that is so evident. If Goren has responded with insubordinate or at least challenging statements to Ross, it is only after being frustated with the evident distrust and closed mind of the captain. It's an excellently played character, but I am admittedly too "attached" to Bobby not to enjoy when Goren gives it back to him. And last night I'm standing there (pacing in front of the tv- how nuts is that?!)stammering "For chrissakes... Somebody call Deakins! Before Bobby blows! Don't you DARE take him off this case!" Thank god for Eames. Barbara in Washington Love your post First, I hope your wrong, I would like to think we saw Goren broken down now we get to see him brought back from the edge. Second I had to laff at your Ross comment and about bring back Deakins, my husband knows of my love for law and order CI and watched it with me during the second run tuesday. When Ross pulled Goren off the case and walked out my husband said who the hell is that guy where is the other captain? I had to explain that he and Carver were no longer on the show, he said boy they get rid of all the good people.
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Post by ragincajun on May 16, 2007 15:31:56 GMT -5
Loved this episode for all of the reasons that have already been posted. I am hoping the few posts that mentioned the VDO may not be back next season is just a silly rumor that is nothing more than hearsay. I would be so sad without Bobby on the show. Speaking only for myself, he is definitely the center of the show. Other characters and actors are great but without VDO/Bobby Goren it just wouldn' t be the same. Just wanted to ask/comment on one technical matter. If Bobby was born in 1963, he would have been 27-28 when he served in the first gulf war, which I believe has been established in a couple of episodes throughout the years. This is pretty old for someone that wasn't career army, which it has always appeared to me, he was not. Does anyone know the back story on this better than I remember it? Thought it was 1961?
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Post by addicted2vdosgoren on May 16, 2007 18:18:11 GMT -5
So much thoughtful analysis in this thread. I've enjoyed reading through it all.
A few comments:
- Yes the Goren family was even more dysfunctional than we previously knew. It seems both Goren Sr. and Frances played kind of twisted games to goad the other - Frances making sure her husband "got the point" about 'uncle' Mark "putting up shelves"; Goren Sr. always taking off to gamble and likely have affairs of his own. Their boys seem to have gotten lost in the midst of the chaos - left alone for a whole weekend, and god knows what else. It brought to my mind the family dynamics in "Suite Sorrow" and "Shrink-Wrapped." In SS, Goren told Julie he knew how it felt to be in a family where you couldn't trust anything, that the parents either lie or are in denial, presenting a false front to cover ugly truths. In S-W, the husband and wife were so absorbed by therir own interests and goading the other with their affairs, they completely neglected their daughter and didn't see any damage their sick games caused. I wonder how far the Goren Sr./Frances games of affairs and such would have escalated if Frances' illness had never been triggered. I guess no matter how you look at it, Bobby's childhood would've sucked.
- I have watched the final scene between Bobby and his mother more times than I can count. Gutwrenching. When Frances confesses she just doesn't know for sure and Bobby reacts with an anguished "Oh" - rips my heart out every single time. And then how he deperately kisses her forehead, telling her to just forget it. It's like he doesn't want to hear it, but at the same time knows he has to. Vincent and Rita were just superb in all their interactions.
- The whole cast was on point. KE did great with what she was given. RS was so creepy. Loved seeing MLB's Wally ( how sweet that Goren's written him for all these years.) EB is a capable actor, but I just can't warm up to Ross at all still. I'm with whoever stated that they were wishing for Deakins - I miss his dynamic with Goren.
Just my 2 cents....
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Post by sarahlee on May 16, 2007 19:03:00 GMT -5
Bravissimo! Wunderbar! !Excellente! Awesome! (and I can't remember my Japanese right now... ) We have a finale (BG/AE) with layers! Yes, the plot was predictable and the "twists" were blatant, but the acting was the best I've seen all season. We returned to the excellent supporting cast that we all got so used to. Nuances replaced the "acting for dummies" we've had to endure on the way to the "real thing"--VDO and KE. Witness the evidence that this thread is already on it's 8th page... My take on the last scene with Bobby and his mom--I saw many, many emotions run their tortured way. From the frantic questioning, to grief over the possible truth, to worry and guilt over his mother's pain, to, finally-- love, tenderness, and even understanding and forgiveness for this poor, wasted soul. I also enjoyed the twist on the "confessionals" with Brady. The room looked like a medieval keep, with the stone walls, arched windows, and heavy iron doors. BTW, my Hubby, who is decidedly not a fan, watched this one. He was so moved/distressed by story, that he called me at work to frantically ask me if this was it, the last we'll see of Robert Goren. (He also spent all of my break time asking background questions for clarification.) This episode has made him a fan, for what that is worth. Many of the epis this season have not required a second watching for understanding, this one I will watch again and again--to understand, and enjoy.
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Post by musicwench on May 16, 2007 19:42:49 GMT -5
Just a couple of more points having watched it four times at this point.
I don't think it's a matter of disrespect or just that Goren and Ross don't like the way the other one works. It's a clash because both of them are Type-A personalities, both are apparently highly intelligent and knowledgeable, have alpha male personalities and Goren also sees Ross as someone who is constantly questioning him and challenging him while Ross sees Goren as a potential time bomb ready to explode at any second ergo bringing down Ross and the entire department. His comments in Blind Spot to Eames about having worked hard to get to Major Case and pointing out to her that she did, too, while insinuating Goren needed to be kept in check to not put them in jeopardy. It was almost the same thing in Endgame where he warns Eames to not let Goren take her down with him.
I think Ross does have some amount of respect for Goren or he wouldn't have told the Deputy Police Commissioner in TWAH that Goren was his best guy - something Michael Biehn's character pointed out to Ross in disbelief after their run in.
Ross does believe Goren is good, he's just not crazy about his unorthodox methods and is just a more high strung version of the early episode Deakins who tended to favor Eames to Goren and made some comments about Goren that indicated he was skeptical of his "magic gut" conclusions.
When not under stress like in Rocket Man, you see Goren throw back at Ross "so am I, so are you," and it's almost humorous but when he's stressed out and ready to break, he snapped.
Oh and I agree Eames did seem to show emotional detachment when she told Ross she wasn't too close but it does come into question when she lets Goren go see Brady alone. Sure it shows she really trusts him but if she were as emotionally detached as she claimed to be, I don't know that she would think that was the best move. She was gambling on Goren - who was in a highly emotional state from being stressed out over his mother's death and now over the revelation that Brady had a long time affair with his mother - keeping his cool and not doing something stupid like, oh I don't know choking Brady. Not that he didn't deserve being choked. That means she was gambling her career on that because Ross seemed to make it clear that by letting them keep the case, she was the one who was going to shoulder the blame equally if things went badly. Something tells me she wouldn't have done that if she were so darned detached. I would have insisted on being in that room with them.
Oh and the whole scene in the SUV where they have the "Frank tells me you have a girlfriend" conversation between Goren and his mom and the "My mom wants to meet you," conversation with Eames was, IMO, just more fodder for the shipper/anti-shipper debate. LOL
Seriously, we could have done without that whole scene except for the part where Goren is explaining why he can't visit his mom. The death row comment was great but could have easily been put in somewhere else without the other stuff we never would have missed had they not included it.
Again, overall a superb episode for me. VDO and KE have done an excellent job in making us care about Goren and Eames as if they were real people. I still find myself worrying about how Goren is going to make it through the summer. Someone give D'Onofrio an Emmy now!!!
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