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Post by deathroe on Feb 28, 2009 17:40:18 GMT -5
Again, given the way that Joe died (in a drug bust, when someone pulled a gun), it's hard to imagine Eames reacting any other way.
I also think it's impossible not to see a pattern of self-infliction beginning at least at "The War At Home." Could a pattern of self-infliction--at the very least of pushing allies away--stem from a traumatic childhood? Absolutely.
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Post by maherjunkie on Feb 28, 2009 18:39:06 GMT -5
For about a day yeah, not one or two more episodes.
If he told her what he is was doing the more HER life is in danger, as in real time.
I'm sure he didn't call her for fear of telling her. I wouldn't risk my job for my best friend unless I didn't care about losing it.
He accepted help going into Tates so I don't see him as distant as some.
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leanonme
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 166
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Post by leanonme on Feb 28, 2009 19:32:26 GMT -5
I'm sure he didn't call her for fear of telling her. I wouldn't risk my job for my best friend unless I didn't care about losing it. He accepted help going into Tates so I don't see him as distant as some. I wouldn't risk my job if I wanted it, but I wouldn't consider telling my best friend a risk. This is his best friend, and partner- the one he trusts with his life. The police partner relationship has a basic underlying, overwhelming trust, or you get out. Even without that, I trust my best friend implicitly. I would never consider it a risk to confide in her. I would guess that in part, like Patcat said, he was trying to protect her. But I think that at a base level, that was a somewhat of an excuse. If it weren't, he would have at least returned her phone call. Also, he did accept help going to Tates. But it was a different kind of help. The help to go to Tates was to serve his agenda, not the kind of help that would help him. He accepts all kinds of help to solve a crime, or get information. But, will he accept help with his family? Will he accept help with his "issues"? No, his "father"issue has gotten him in trouble on more than one occasion, and he hasn't gotten help. I am betting that he never visited one of those support groups Nelda gave him info about either.
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leanonme
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 166
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Post by leanonme on Feb 28, 2009 19:48:23 GMT -5
Again, given the way that Joe died (in a drug bust, when someone pulled a gun), it's hard to imagine Eames reacting any other way. I also think it's impossible not to see a pattern of self-infliction beginning at least at "The War At Home." Could a pattern of self-infliction--at the very least of pushing allies away--stem from a traumatic childhood? Absolutely. Good call on the Joe reference DR; I hadn't thought of that. Yes, I think it would be expected from his childhood. When the people who are supposed to help you aren't available to help you, or worse, when you go to them for help, they hurt you, you learn not to expect, or accept help--its too risky. Plus, there is an overwhelming, crippling low self-esteem. Getting close to Eames on a personal level ( and allowing her to help him) would cause him to feel intense emotional pain. He would have to face the reality of his family in light of hers. No doubt he walks around feeling "different". Getting close to any type of normalcy would only intensify that feeling. I would bet that a lot of his "idiosyncrasies" are defense mechanisms to keep people away, and thus keep himself protected.
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Post by deathroe on Feb 28, 2009 21:47:18 GMT -5
In fairness to both of them, collegial relationships are extremely complicated, aren't they? It is never just a friendship, IMHO. There are also parallel relationships to authority and issues such as favoritism and advancement to be negotiated. I think that Eames' and Goren's tendency in the past has been to be in their own little crime-solving world; however, of late, reality has intervened. (leanonme ... I'll draw no parallels to Stabler and Olivia )
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Post by tjara on Mar 1, 2009 8:13:44 GMT -5
Too bad DR, I'd love to hear them.
Two reasons (beware, I'm being somewhat stereotypical farther down ;D ):
- There's a hord of E/O shippers out there, many of them far "worse" than the G/E shippers. I find that interesting because Elliot is married (and catholic) and I'm just convinced that E/O is and absolute NO GO for the SVU TPTB, inspite of Chris & Mariska having so much fun at "shipping it up a bit". E/O shippers seem to be more desperate, inspite of G/E being more likely or let's say "possible".
- In a way, E/O are G/E but with the traditional roles. No wait, let me articulate that differently. G/E are the opposite of E/O. E/O are kind of the typical guy-girl coupling. Elliot is the tough guy, rough cop, no-nonsense, down-to-earth, shows little emotion. Olivia is the sensitive, compassionate... G/E is essentially the same coupling, but with inverted roles, because the guy is the more emotional/sensitive part in that parntership, whereas the girl is the tough cop.
Now granted, there are differences - for example Olivia isn't the kind of intellectual that Bobby ist, and Elliot likes to bend the rules, Eames does not. Still I think it's interesting to compare these two. I only catch SVU now and then, so I'm probably no good for a discussion anyway, but I've noticed the similarities right from the start.
Also, Eliot had this kind of "lash-out" moment with Olivia, much like Eames had with Bobby...
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Post by maherjunkie on Mar 1, 2009 11:44:21 GMT -5
I just think, Lean, that he didn't have any wriggle room on this one and was on direct orders not to do so. It's not like involving her before was a great idea. I don't feel a need to tell my best friend everything no matter how close we are and I wouldn't cross that commissioner any more than I'd cross a snake with a member of ZZ Top.
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Post by Patcat on Mar 1, 2009 13:30:24 GMT -5
I don't watch SVU regularly, but it seems to me that the Olivia/Elliott relationship is often downright destructive to both people. And I find it not as well or consistently written as the B/A relationship.
I am biased, however.
Patcat
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Post by DonnaJo on Mar 1, 2009 13:31:57 GMT -5
I agree with maherjunkie. Goren was so desperate to get reinstated, he was scared to death of anything messing that up. Especially since Eames had caught the very case that he was working undercover on. He didn't act surprised when she told him she was on the case - Goren knew Major Case would be assigned because of the tourist factor. How could he trust that her knowing about him being undercover could stay a secret? Even if she didn't say anything, her temporary partner or Ross might have noticed her acting strange.
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Post by deathroe on Mar 1, 2009 13:46:29 GMT -5
I agree very much on the subtlety thing, although I do enjoy both partnerships.
Meloni and Hargitay just strike me as different kinds of actors than, and as having dissimilar chemistry to, Erbe and D'Onofrio.
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Post by deathroe on Mar 1, 2009 13:49:39 GMT -5
*You know, I did take G's assertion that he was trying to protect E by keeping her in the dark ("Purgatory") somewhat at face value. Don't know if I'm the only one.
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Post by deathroe on Mar 1, 2009 13:58:58 GMT -5
Since I'm appending to appendices: tjara, I think your comments on the E/O vs.G/E pairings are bang on, down to shippers' characteristics. I've nothing to add. I especially like the word "inverted."
SVU, from its roots as a carefully-crafted ensemble piece, has disintegrated into unabashed, unbearable, over-the-top-ness. The only reason I can think of for this is that sex @#^@*#&ing sells (ok, sex with a little education thrown in). It's too bad, in my book, that they couldn't portray their subject matters more rationally. I know there's no rationale, often, for evil, but the quality I cherish most about the early Mothership is its willingness to self-examine, to examine US (broadly) as a culture. Latter-day SVU's about as far from that as one can get.
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Post by maherjunkie on Mar 1, 2009 14:04:22 GMT -5
*You know, I did take G's assertion that he was trying to protect E by keeping her in the dark ("Purgatory") somewhat at face value. Don't know if I'm the only one. What do you mean, you don't believe him or you do? Why would he not?
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Post by deathroe on Mar 1, 2009 14:54:10 GMT -5
I believed him. It struck me that all the focus on how Goren discounted Eames' position might have been at the expensive of that very basic assertion: I was trying to protect you.
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Post by tjara on Mar 1, 2009 16:01:12 GMT -5
I'm generally Goren-biased (*sorry* - but I really do like Eames a lot, too!! ) - but I thought he had no other choice than to not tell her. It's not only because of the orders from Ross (and the brass or whoever was involved), but also the nature of being undercover. It might have been a little bit different because he wasn't impersonating someone else, but still it would've been dangerous if he told anyone. I mean just think of the following scenario... what if he did tell her? In his undercover job he was working with another ex-cop, right? What if word got out that he was, and it turned out in a way that Eames had to consider him a suspect? If she knew he was undercover, she'd not take that angle on the case, and that itself might have blown his cover...
Besides, Bobby desperately tried to hold on to what was left - and that was his job. One might argue that he had Eames left, too, but I think at that point their relationship was shaky. And also, to repair the one he had to repair the other, I'd think...
I'd say yes. I agree with those that have said that SVU is more "straight forward", whether one likes it or not. I havn't seen that many eps, but I've seen a couple of very good ones. If the show used to be even better at some point, wow... then I don't pay as close attention or analyze as thoroughly, so maybe I'm settling for less? Anyway, so long, I'll keep watching. There's always that constant influx of ironing to do, and TV shows keep me entertained while doing that...
But back to the quote. I certainly don't know any of the four personally, but from what I gather from public appearances, Meloni and VDO are VERY different, not with one better than the ofther, just different. Meloni seems to be very extroverted, generally fun to be with, always joking, always on the move, buzzing with energy, likes to do interviews...
... VDO in some ways is the exact oppositve. To me he seems rather withdrawn, doesn't like the interviews and while he is funny, he has this kind of "around the courner" humor...
Also, Meloni and Hargitay seem to be out and about together A LOT. Now I'm not implying that they have a better relationship than KE & VDO, because as said, I don't know them. But what sets Meloni & Hargitay apart for me is that as far as it comes to shippers, they are very aware of that viewer segment and they tend to make "fun" of and for it. Just go to YouTube and google for their Interview on View (I think it was the View) or that supposed kissing picture... To me it seems that Meloni and Hargitay as a team have a very "let's joke around nature" that VDO & KE don't have. Their approach seems to be more serious and "grounded". So I do think that Hargitay and Meloni have a different "grip" on their characters than VDO & KE. Not better or worse, just different.
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