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Post by DonnaJo on Apr 9, 2008 7:47:20 GMT -5
I don't recall him working for a funeral home either, but I do recall him having an ID from a mortuary school that would have convinced Helmut. I remember that. He had a few I.D.'s on him when Goren searched him. I just don't remember the part where it is mentioned that Helmet thought the bodies were already dead? I assumed he knew (and didn't want to know the details) that Spencer had killed them. That would make him an accessory of sorts. |
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Post by Patcat on Apr 9, 2008 8:53:40 GMT -5
I apologize for causing confusion. I believe I made a leap from the id to thinking Spencer worked at a mortuary. I still go with the idea that Helmet didn't think, or didn't want to think, that Spencer had actually killed the women, but only that Spencer had photographed them.
Patcat
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Post by DonnaJo on Apr 9, 2008 10:07:04 GMT -5
I think its great that this came up, Patcat.
Here we are, thinking we are all on the same page about Helmut & his knowledge of what was actually going on. I think that Helmut was very single minded when it came to his photography. He didn't really want to know how the subjects he photographed died.
Maybe he eventually found out that they were murder victims & that's what made him quit doing it?
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Post by Patcat on Apr 9, 2008 10:38:30 GMT -5
That's what I think happened, and that may have triggered Spencer's murder of Helmut. I think Spencer told Helmut the dead bodies came from a mortuary. Eventually Spencer, thinking that Helmut was his co creator, showed the photographer one of the bodies and told Helmut the truth. Spencer didn't realize that, while Helmut was all about his art and despised the weak in society, he also had a humanity. (It's a quality Goren points out when he shows Spencer the difference between his photographs and what Helmut does to the pictures.) When he realized what had actually happened to the women, and that he was profitting from it, Helmut was physically ill. And that's when Spencer realized Helmut wasn't buying into his artistic vision and Spencer felt he had to kill Helmut.
Or perhaps Spencer planned all along to kill Helmut?
If Spencer had been able to channel his anger and pain could he have been a great artist?
Patcat
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Post by trisha on Apr 13, 2008 20:02:32 GMT -5
For the abuse debate, I always thought Goren was abused because he *acts* like someone who's been abused. For an actor as fastidious as VDO, I accepted that it was done on purpose and took the abuse as canon as early as season one.
I got the impression that Helmut didn't know Spencer was murdering the girls. His obliviousness is rather ironic considering his intentions, no? And we do so love irony on CI.
I also thought that Spencer killed him, not because he knew, but because he wanted his project to be the last thing the great Helmut Newton worked on, bringing his vision fame and glory. He seemed stunned that Newton's son knew nothing of the project, so he didn't know that Newton was keeping the entire project hushed and likely never had any intention of releasing it.
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Post by Patcat on Apr 13, 2008 21:50:48 GMT -5
Trisha, I agree with your take on Goren being abused, but I'm curious as to what things about Goren lead you to think that.
Patcat
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Ladyheather
Detective
An acquired taste.....
Posts: 441
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Post by Ladyheather on Apr 13, 2008 22:24:09 GMT -5
I guess I always assumed that both boys were mentally abused by their father. They were abused by his lack of being there, since he was at the track a lot. Absence is abuse. Mom sought companionship with men because she was so lonely and abused herself. Goren always seems to identify with children who have a lacking relationship with their fathers especially. The reason I think Goren doesn't think that parenthood is in his future.
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Post by DonnaJo on Apr 14, 2008 7:59:47 GMT -5
Trisha, I agree with your take on Goren being abused, but I'm curious as to what things about Goren lead you to think that. Patcat May I gently disagree with both of you ladies? I don't believe Goren was physically abused, at least not enough for it to show. Other than strategically placed loaded comments in some episodes & empathy for abuse victims, Goren doesn't act physically abused to me. I'm not saying he wasn't smacked by his mom as a child, but I would not label it abuse. In the 1960's, hitting your child as a disciplinary tool was done by most parents. He doesn't shrink when approached in a threatening physical manner, which is a clear sign. He offers physical protection to others as well. When Carver was threatened by the judge, Goren stepped in to offer his defense. Frank projects more of a background in being physically abused as a child than Bobby. How he cowered when Bobby was threatening him showed that. |
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Post by Summerfield on Apr 14, 2008 8:14:02 GMT -5
Oh I think it's a fore gone conclusion that he and Frank were emotionally neglected and abused. I was just questioning the physical abuse.
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Post by trisha on Apr 14, 2008 11:59:47 GMT -5
Goren has displayed hypervigilance to affect from as early as episode "One." That's something that generally comes from long term physical abuse. His hypervigilance plays a strong role in his detective work in many episodes, and he does indeed get started by people. Angry women seem to effect him more than angry men, and I've long taken it for granted that his mother physically abused him during her mental breaks. As Observer keenly noted on a few occasions, Goren also seems to have an aversion to small spaces, suggesting that part of his abuse may have included being locked in a closet or such.
It’s subtle enough to overlook if you want to, but the evidence is there if you choose to acknowledge it, as well. I think that’s the reason that it was one of the earlier questions posed to Ms. Sen Gupta about Goren’s background; is it intentional? and yes, she says it was.
Still, you don't have to see it if you don't want to. I still refuse to acknowledge that Jack was banging Clair. I don't care what Mr. Balcer says!
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Post by DonnaJo on Apr 14, 2008 12:35:28 GMT -5
"Angry women seem to effect him more than angry men"
I agree that Goren doesn't seem startled or afraid of men. The only really, really physically angry woman I remember him dealing with was the one with the brain scan that showed she was predisposed to be violent (temporary mental block on episode name, sorry). When she went crazy, he grabbed her & dealt with her, no problem.
I don't know about hyper vigilance being a result of physical abuse - I've never heard that theory. I do agree that Goren doesn't like emotional confrontations with women, I'm sure as a result of being bullied by his mom. Emotionally & mentally bullied, not physically.
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Post by Cassie on Apr 14, 2008 13:47:14 GMT -5
Still, you don't have to see it if you don't want to. I still refuse to acknowledge that Jack was banging Clair. I don't care what Mr. Balcer says! Yeah, he was doing her.... I picked up on it, I think in two episodes, the one where David Groh's character came back to haunt her. And I think another one where McCoy's character was in question as to what kind of boss he was.... Or maybe that all played out in that episode. Somewhere it was implied that Clair didn't mine sleeping with her bosses, and Jack was one of them. |
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Post by trisha on Apr 14, 2008 13:51:32 GMT -5
Hypervigilance goes hand in hand with PTSD. Hypervigilance to affect (noticing the most minute emotional signals) is generally something that a person only learns when in constant, long term situations of life threatening danger and abuse. It's a defense mechanism, and one that can and does fade with time and therapy, which is often needed as the effects can be debilitating causing the sufferer to see threats in even the most innocuous situations. But, Goren uses it to his advantage in sorting out what people are feeling as opposed to what they are saying, rooting out the truth.
Honestly, it's not the most realistic approach to portraying a person suffering from hypervigliance, but studies show that most cops show signs of suffering from it just from having to be constantly alert to danger. But for one to have Goren's level of focus, it would take something more.
My theory is that little Bobby didn't know who he would be dealing with from moment to moment, and had to constantly read his mother for signs of who she was and what she was feeling toward him. That way he would know if he was going to be hugged or slapped, fed or locked in a closet.
This is going to sound tangent-y, but bear with me .... Observer once wrote a very interesting post about "splitting." She surmised that Goren was able to maintain a loving relationship with his mother by splitting the woman who loved him from the disease that caused her to harm him. This makes a lot of sense to me as it also explains how he is able to see and reach out to the spark of humanity in even the most damaged people like John Tagman and Nicole Wallace, and genuinely care for them. He separates the person from the sickness within, and is able to deal with them both individually, and thus extremely effectively. I think it goes hand in hand with his ability to read and decipher even the smallest emotional cues. He sees their soft spots and uses them against them to get his confessions.
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Post by trisha on Apr 14, 2008 13:53:37 GMT -5
Still, you don't have to see it if you don't want to. I still refuse to acknowledge that Jack was banging Clair. I don't care what Mr. Balcer says! Yeah, he was doing her.... I picked up on it, I think in two episodes, the one where David Groh's character came back to haunt her. And I think another one where McCoy's character was in question as to what kind of boss he was.... Or maybe that all played out in that episode. Somewhere it was implied that Clair didn't mine sleeping with her bosses, and Jack was one of them. La la la la la, I can't hear you *snerk* |
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Post by lilymaybeme on Apr 14, 2008 15:34:27 GMT -5
I seem to remember reading (way back when, in the beginning sometime) that Bobby's mother used to try to beat the demons out of him when he was a child. This would occur during her "episodes". I wish I could remember the source, but it makes perfect sense to me. Like you said trisha: hypervigilance and splitting.
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