susan1212
Detective
Yeah. I get that.
Posts: 444
|
Post by susan1212 on Apr 14, 2008 18:17:29 GMT -5
Trisha, I agree with your take on Goren being abused, but I'm curious as to what things about Goren lead you to think that. Patcat May I gently disagree with both of you ladies? I don't believe Goren was physically abused, at least not enough for it to show. Other than strategically placed loaded comments in some episodes & empathy for abuse victims, Goren doesn't act physically abused to me. I'm not saying he wasn't smacked by his mom as a child, but I would not label it abuse. In the 1960's, hitting your child as a disciplinary tool was done by most parents. He doesn't shrink when approached in a threatening physical manner, which is a clear sign. He offers physical protection to others as well. When Carver was threatened by the judge, Goren stepped in to offer his defense. Frank projects more of a background in being physically abused as a child than Bobby. How he cowered when Bobby was threatening him showed that. Different people react differently to physical abuse. Some cower and take drugs. Some decide to protect and serve. Some just manage to have a normal life. Many siblings in a physically abused family physically fight with each other too - a reaction to the chaos. Robert's reactions are common. As a victim of physical and mental abuse as a child, I too am somewhat over-compassionate toward the underdog, over-empathetic (sometimes to the point of illness), overly frustrated in times of helplessness, and filled with angst. But I am also fiercely defensive of victims of cruelty or abuse - a reaction to the inability to defend myself as a child. I am also hopeful, positive, nurturing, and enjoy life immensely - a reaction to therapy. I am a contradiction within myself, to say the least. But I think most of us are. I don't know for sure if Robert was physically abused, but it would not surprise me. The fact that he is easily hurt by words and taken aback when someone can read him as he reads others, tells me he was definitely emotionally abused. But both Frank and Robert react as other victims of physical abuse do, even though it is totally different from each other. Sarcasm as humor is another sign of physical abuse. Frank and Robert don't have that characteristic, but Logan does (and so do I). I believe it is nature and nurture - or in this case no nurturing. Our nature we are born with. How we were brought up, coupled with what we were born with, determines our reactions. Since everyone is different, reactions will be different.
|
|
|
Post by DonnaJo on Apr 14, 2008 18:51:44 GMT -5
Trisha & Susan, You both have extremely persuasive arguments in favor of Goren having been physically abused as a child. Honestly, I know little about the subject, save what I've heard, which is that abused people in turn abuse others. That is obviously not true & too simplistic a view. I've learned something from both of you. Again, thank you both for your insightful posts. Susan, thank you for sharing your background. I apologize if I came across as stubborn.
|
|
sabry
Silver Shield Investigator
ducati forever!
Posts: 130
|
Post by sabry on Apr 15, 2008 3:33:56 GMT -5
I also thank for the post I had never thought that Goren Had suffered physical abuse, but now I have different idea
|
|
susan1212
Detective
Yeah. I get that.
Posts: 444
|
Post by susan1212 on Apr 15, 2008 5:06:25 GMT -5
Donna- No apologies necessary. This board is for discussion and that's all we are doing. No worries, my friend. My intent on sharing wasn't a plea for pity, just a way to let you know where my comments are coming from. And some physically abused people do continue the pattern because they lack the ability to change it, which, sadly, only continues the cycle. But some are able to "break the causal chain"("Happy Accidents") and move on. Thank you for your kind words.
Sabry - Sharing our thoughts and insights is what this board is all about. Thank you for "listening".
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Apr 15, 2008 8:39:33 GMT -5
Yes, thanks to everyone for their comments and discussions.
Is it possible that we have examples of three different reactions to abuse in LOCI? Nicole/Elizabeth/Evil One reacted by becoming an abuser. Frank Goren continues to be a victim. And Bobby chose to be someone who tries to protect innocents and punish the abusers.
Patcat
|
|
|
Post by lilymaybeme on Apr 15, 2008 12:20:48 GMT -5
Vey astute!
|
|
|
Post by trisha on Apr 15, 2008 14:37:20 GMT -5
DonnaJo, I did not find you stubborn at all as you stirred up an interesting conversation and that's what we're here for. If anything, me calling you stubborn would be a case of pot & kettle LOL! Because I don't care what anyone says, Jack was not cheating on me with Clair ;D Susan, wonderful posts, thanks so much for sharing Patcat, I agree with lilymaybeme. Very nice point. I do love how CI exposes us all for who and what we are, and the way we treat each other. Do you think, with Goren being so smart and brave and righteous and resilient, that Mr. Balcer created sort of a Gary Stu (aka male version Mary Sue) ? Was he too perfect? Is that why I can't get over seeing him the way he is now? Oh gods. I think I swallowed the tie clip.
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Apr 15, 2008 14:47:08 GMT -5
I don't think Goren was ever too good to be true. He occasionally tripped himself up as early as the first season, and there were several revelations about his family and background in the second season. I've never seen him as a plaster saint, and don't like those sort of heroes. I prefer heroes who battle their demons, like Goren.
Granted, there have been a lot of demons recently, and Goren's been on the losing side of the battles, but I have hopes.
Patcat
|
|
|
Post by DonnaJo on Apr 15, 2008 17:27:14 GMT -5
Trisha, I also thought many times that Goren was, in my opinion, the perfect man. Handsome (but not too), tall, intelligent, insightful, brave, intuitive.....**sigh** The fact that he had a few flaws, as Patcat mentioned, and made some mistakes, made him even more appealing. A flawed hero is so much more attractive. It makes a woman feel needed. This new Goren seems weak, not as insightful. Certainly not as brave, at least not in the traditional sense. Sometimes I think I have blinders on, that I refuse to see that my hero....isn't.... There's always hope, as Patcat says. But they better hurry up, because there's only so much destruction of this man that I can take. And Patcat, I adore your comments on the three different reactions to abuse on CI. Your observation is spot on. ;D
|
|
|
Post by sarahlee on Apr 16, 2008 18:44:20 GMT -5
Good point DonnaJo, the "New Goren" seems to reflect his new physicallity--soft, undisciplined, disorganinzed. Quite a change from the strong, controlled and alert Goren I swooned over...
|
|
|
Post by lilymaybeme on Apr 17, 2008 16:16:47 GMT -5
I'm not really sure how I'll feel about this "new Goren" I keep reading about, but he is only human, and even the perfect man still has moments of weakness. And if you hold things in and try to keep it together for too long without a support group or any one to share with...well, you're bound to break and/or fall. I just hope manages to pull himself together before he does anything stupid. The harder the fall... I'll post more once I've had a chance to see Amends.
|
|
|
Post by maherjunkie on Apr 17, 2008 19:14:04 GMT -5
What ep do you think is better, this one or Undaunted Mettle? I ask because they both deals with sons distanced from artists fathers. This is the tighter, artier one for me.
|
|
susan1212
Detective
Yeah. I get that.
Posts: 444
|
Post by susan1212 on Apr 19, 2008 6:40:00 GMT -5
What ep do you think is better, this one or Undaunted Mettle? I ask because they both deals with sons distanced from artists fathers. This is the tighter, artier one for me. Both epis were excellent - but I like the forensic detail in "Posthumous Collection" - all the clues at the crime scene (decomp smell in makeup on scarf , flash powder, vomit), later the discovery of the hidden film and archived pictures. The path of the clues itself was tight. The best acting scene is even later, when Bobby realizes that "all these women are dead". Even two seasoned cops who have seen almost everything are taken aback, although the interview with the sister at the jail was just as scary in a "Twilight Zone" sort of way. The only thing to me that was inconsistant was the reason they got the perp and his lawyer to go to Gerhart's studio - to see if he could reach the vent? Of course he could. It was obvious.
|
|
|
Post by maherjunkie on Apr 19, 2008 8:33:29 GMT -5
It's the obvious that trips the arrogant!
|
|
susan1212
Detective
Yeah. I get that.
Posts: 444
|
Post by susan1212 on Apr 19, 2008 9:26:35 GMT -5
It's the obvious that trips the arrogant! "For the obvious reasons." (DAW)
|
|