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Post by dragonsback on Dec 14, 2008 20:49:16 GMT -5
Leanonme, that's one fine piece of exposition you've written. Thanks for being not only fluid and lucid, but daring. Takes a bit of backbone to say what you've said, here in the heart of Goren Country Which, as some of us believe, is actually two countries: Goren North and Goren South. I'm also intrigued and impressed that you've seen what you've seen, and drawn the conclusions you have, from a relatively short exposure to LOCI. Total immersion is clearly the way to go. For your particular interest, I point you in the direction of a thread started by our glorious Annabelleleigh on the subject. It's called CI and the Art of Character Maintenance. The thread kicks off with her figurative letter to VDO. I think you'll find a likemindedness in many of the posts. criminalmaster.proboards28.com/index.cgi?board=generalcidiscussion&action=display&thread=3039&page=1
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Post by diablodeblanco on Dec 14, 2008 21:23:12 GMT -5
For many years I have been an avid fan of LOCI. The main reason was VDO, secondary was the writing/directing stuff. I watch the new episodes in hopes that there will be that return to that early stuff (excellent writing, acting). I have noticed recently though, that I have been skipping the episodes from later years. I have no desire or interest in them anymore. I still autotune to the earlier ones and thoroughly enjoy them even if I have viewed them umteen times but if the episode is newer, I watch something else.
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Post by dragonsback on Dec 15, 2008 0:10:50 GMT -5
For many years I have been an avid fan of LOCI. The main reason was VDO, secondary was the writing/directing stuff. I watch the new episodes in hopes that there will be that return to that early stuff (excellent writing, acting). I have noticed recently though, that I have been skipping the episodes from later years. I have no desire or interest in them anymore. I still autotune to the earlier ones and thoroughly enjoy them even if I have viewed them umteen times but if the episode is newer, I watch something else. Absolutely, and ain't it the truth? I bet that you and I could actually recite from memory whole episodes from S1 and s2, we've seen them that often. Time passed. In all the Goren MkII seasons, I can find maybe 10 out of 66 that I'd watch more than once, and a few that I 'd pay good money never to see again.
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Post by lilymaybeme on Dec 15, 2008 1:35:07 GMT -5
For many years I have been an avid fan of LOCI. The main reason was VDO, secondary was the writing/directing stuff. I watch the new episodes in hopes that there will be that return to that early stuff (excellent writing, acting). I have noticed recently though, that I have been skipping the episodes from later years. I have no desire or interest in them anymore. I still autotune to the earlier ones and thoroughly enjoy them even if I have viewed them umteen times but if the episode is newer, I watch something else. Absolutely, and ain't it the truth? I bet that you and I could actually recite from memory whole episodes from S1 and s2, we've seen them that often. Time passed. In all the Goren MkII seasons, I can find maybe 10 out of 66 that I'd watch more than once, and a few that I 'd pay good money never to see again. While I agree VDO's nicer to look at in the earlier seasons, IMO, Season 1-3 are more eye candy. Seasons 4 - 7 are meat for the intellect and far more interesting as far as writing, camera work, imagery.. Pure art!
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Post by diablodeblanco on Dec 15, 2008 10:13:14 GMT -5
While I agree VDO's nicer to look at in the earlier seasons, IMO, Season 1-3 are more eye candy. Seasons 4 - 7 are meat for the intellect and far more interesting as far as writing, camera work, imagery.. Pure art! As far as VDO is concerned, it's not a matter of "eye candy" for me in those earlier seasons. More accurately it is a matter of the way he uses his physical presence and movement to help bring the Goren to life, especially in any interrogation scenes. The dialogue is sharp and the VDO delivery is a joy to watch. I absolutely loved the scene in Crazy when he was stalking around the table and provoking/stabbing the doctor. There was an energy to him. He was focused and fixed on his target. He was lethal in a non violent way. In the later episodes (at least for me) he has become this weary, plodding man grinding his way to the answers. Again, for me, it is almost tiring to watch this. He has lost that uniqueness, that edge.......and he has lost my interest. I can't see this as all writing or directing but what the writers can do with the character and story at this point in VDO's career.
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fuzzytweetie
Silver Shield Investigator
Bobby's version of the "hokey pokey"
Posts: 153
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Post by fuzzytweetie on Dec 15, 2008 12:12:37 GMT -5
I think that the "weary plodding" Goren is right for the point in time of his life that is being portrayed. He's gone through hell emotionally and physically. He's approaching 50, lost his badge, doesn't like the work environment, whatever happiness he might have is beyond reach, his mother and brother are dead............his parentage sucks........ I'd be depressed, too.
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Post by lilymaybeme on Dec 15, 2008 12:23:16 GMT -5
While I agree VDO's nicer to look at in the earlier seasons, IMO, As far as VDO is concerned, it's not a matter of "eye candy" for me in those earlier seasons. More accurately it is a matter of the way he uses his physical presence and movement to help bring the Goren to life, especially in any interrogation scenes. The dialogue is sharp and the VDO delivery is a joy to watch. I absolutely loved the scene in Crazy when he was stalking around the table and provoking/stabbing the doctor. There was an energy to him. He was focused and fixed on his target. He was lethal in a non violent way. In the later episodes (at least for me) he has become this weary, plodding man grinding his way to the answers. Again, for me, it is almost tiring to watch this. He has lost that uniqueness, that edge.......and he has lost my interest. I can't see this as all writing or directing but what the writers can do with the character and story at this point in VDO's career. I agree he showed more energy in the first 3 seasons, and the writing was very good. I would have been satisfied with that if seasons 4-7 hadn't come along to surpass the earlier writing. I find there's so much more depth in the latter seasons. They're literature on screen. So many layers, so much at once, visually and in the script. It takes several viewings to get everything.
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leanonme
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 166
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Post by leanonme on Dec 15, 2008 13:13:06 GMT -5
[quote autho As far as VDO is concerned, it's not a matter of "eye candy" for me in those earlier seasons. More accurately it is a matter of the way he uses his physical presence and movement to help bring the Goren to life, especially in any interrogation scenes. The dialogue is sharp and the VDO delivery is a joy to watch. [/quote] I agree he showed more energy in the first 3 seasons, and the writing was very good. I would have been satisfied with that if seasons 4-7 hadn't come along to surpass the earlier writing. I find there's so much more depth in the latter seasons. They're literature on screen. So many layers, so much at once, visually and in the script. It takes several viewings to get everything.[/quote] I am treading lightly here, because admittedly, I haven't seen a lot of seasons 5-7, but I think I have seen what everyone considers the highlights. And I have now seen all of season 1-4 with a few exceptions. I haven't seen this depth in writing in the later seasons, if it is there, could someone please tell me where so that I can dig it out and watch it? A scene in my house last night sums it up pretty well I think. We watched "Cruise to Nowhere", which everyone liked very much. I saw the Hamlet in it. Nice, I wouldn't say deep, but the references where there. After the show, my 17 year old son, a gifted kid, started the usual teenage cynical stuff... " blah, blah, Bobby gets the kid to buy his mom a sandwich, same old story, whats so heroic about that Mom?" Then, we watched "Suite Sorrow" from season 2. When it was over, my son just sat in silence. I asked him what he thought of the episode. He said, "Wait, I want to think about it first. I am thinking about why Bobby was so upset at the end. There is more to it than just the idea that that man was killed." Later, he came down and we had a cool discussion about the nuances of the episode ie... Who was Bobby upset for? Why? What drove that woman to such anger? Did her mom love her or not? etc. etc. It was pretty good stuff for a 17 year old boy outside of English class. Cartoons can make Hamlet references. That doesn't make them deep. I like some of the later season stuff, but most if it is just plain entertainment. I am not left thinking. I love the early writing because I am not told what to think- even on such typical "lecture" type shows as "Third Horseman". In the early seasons, I can feel compassion for almost everyone, and I can see Bobby's empathy and respect for them without having to be told. I can see when Bobby is being impacted by his past, without having to have said past played out in front of me. Cruise to Nowhere is pretty typical TV- Uncle Phil - Bad guy, no redeeming qualites, Kid- good kid who has been wounded - he doesn't even cheat, stereotypical wise guys. zzzzzzzzz Compare the line from Cruise ("I know about this gambling thing") to the line from Suite (" I know what it is to have your judgment, your sense of security undermined by your parents because they were hiding a secret or unaware of it themselves"- paraphrase, but you get the idea.) Then, add an animated VDO,kneeling down with pain oozing out of every pore as he drives on to defeat evil, vs. a depressed VDO, just standing there saying the line. No comparison in depth, writing, and acting. I find it much more interesting to see the pain hiding behind drive, arrogance and the occasional melt down, rather than, look at me, I am depressed, look how sad I am. It is tragic hero vs. typical tv cop. An arrogant, driven man in a great suit who is deeply wounded underneath is much more interesting and fun than a big, lethargic man in a flannel wearing his pain on his badly fitting sleeve. Maybe that's just me.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Dec 15, 2008 13:45:32 GMT -5
I think that the "weary plodding" Goren is right for the point in time of his life that is being portrayed. He's gone through hell emotionally and physically. He's approaching 50, lost his badge, doesn't like the work environment, whatever happiness he might have is beyond reach, his mother and brother are dead............his parentage sucks........ I'd be depressed, too. I'm wondering if VDO had kept up on his physical appearance/capability if the acting and even the story line would have differed from what we see today. I am wondering if the writers/etc. merely used what they had available to work with from their leading man and constructed things from there. I keep thinking about KE's physical scene in Blind Spot where she scales a wall (in heeled boots no less) to try and escape. No way in hell could VDO have come close to that kind of physical feat. I believe the writers have to keep in mind his limitations now. I even wonder if the much anticipated aria in an episode is written in such a way as to deal with VDO's own emotional lethargy. The stories/plots have gone beyond Goren's maturing or the emotional angst that swirls around him and into something else. Something that is VDO driven.
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Post by maherjunkie on Dec 15, 2008 14:05:27 GMT -5
Many feel season 5 sucked. Wait for six and seven.
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leanonme
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 166
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Post by leanonme on Dec 15, 2008 14:46:08 GMT -5
I have seen the episodes which many would call the highlights from 6 and 7. I still don't see the same depth. I think it was interesting that when I put a call out for the best from each season, most people had NUMEROUS examples from the early seasons. It was much more of a struggle to name favorites from the later seasons. I have seen Endgame, Purgatory, Untethered, Frame, Amends, BlindSpot. I have seen all those episodes because while it was hard to get a consensus of the best from early seasons, these were pretty much the only ones that got recommended to me from later seasons. I am open to hearing about what I misssed. I would love to have more feedback on the best and worst of each season thread. From where I sit the later seasons are entertaining on various levels, with some stellar moments, but it really isn't the same show. I can really feel for VDO. As I said, I know that weight gain thing. But it really isn't helping anyone to pretend that all these changes were for the character. And if they are, well, I have to say, couldn't they come up with anything better than what happens to my neighbor next door when he is depressed? This is TV, not reality TV. I can watch someone be overly miserable at face value on any night of the week. I feel really sad if he has just given up. The Brando comparison is very depressing. I am sure that it couldn't be easy to keep up the old level of Bobby Goren for an extended time. But come on, look at him at these appearances, don't try to fool me and tell me that this is all because Bobby is depressed. Bobby can change, and be depressed, I just thought that when he did it it might be more interesting and make me think more than when everyone else did it. I certainly don't want VDO to leave. But I don't want to be told that I should accept that Bobby is older and things are tough for him, so I shouldn't care that he has gained weight and is lackluster. For crying out loud, while I know this is a fantasy, ( a very DIFFERENT fantasy than I had of the early VDO BTW ) but I would just love to hear the truth... I have life issues, I am having trouble with my weight, that exciting Bobby Goren is EXHAUSTING to keep up week after week, I am sick of wearing a suit, and I hate to shave! My personal confession is, I am sick of unpacking, don't want to work, and so I am here wasting time! LOL
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leanonme
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 166
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Post by leanonme on Dec 15, 2008 14:50:15 GMT -5
Thanks for being not only fluid and lucid, but daring. Takes a bit of backbone to say what you've said, here in the heart of Goren Country Which, as some of us believe, is actually two countries: Goren North and Goren South. I'm also intrigued and impressed that you've seen what you've seen, and drawn the conclusions you have, from a relatively short exposure to LOCI. Total immersion is clearly the way to go. For your particular interest, I point you in the direction of a thread started by our glorious Annabelleleigh on the subject. It's called CI and the Art of Character Maintenance. The thread kicks off with her figurative letter to VDO. I think you'll find a likemindedness in many of the posts. criminalmaster.proboards28.com/index.cgi?board=generalcidiscussion&action=display&thread=3039&page=1Thanks! If I would have known that it took backbone, I am note sure I would have done it! I claim newcomer ignorance rather than bravery! In real life, I do live right on the Mason Dixon line by the way . And thank you for the link, that was a good read, and I felt validated on many levels!
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Post by maherjunkie on Dec 15, 2008 14:52:01 GMT -5
I remember liking most all of them, though for me, the Logan eps had more life to them.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Dec 15, 2008 14:55:25 GMT -5
Leanonme--sometimes it takes "fresh eyes" to really see.
I am originally from Delaware, so I understand about the middle of the road thing.
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Post by DonnaJo on Dec 15, 2008 15:25:04 GMT -5
"An arrogant, driven man in a great suit who is deeply wounded underneath is much more interesting and fun than a big, lethargic man in a flannel wearing his pain on his badly fitting sleeve. Maybe that's just me."
WORD Leanonme! God.....That is good stuff! ;D
A perfect description of past vs. present Goren. I commend you!
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