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Post by Patcat on Jul 14, 2009 10:42:54 GMT -5
There are a lot of Catholics and ex-Catholics running around and running the L&O world. Rene Balcer and Dick Wolf were both raised Catholic (I don't know how they regard themselves now). I've always regarded Alex as having been raised Catholic. It doesn' surprise me that she wouldn't know about some rituals of the Church while Bobby would. Many faithful Catholics don't know the names of some of the things used by the Church. Bobby, as an alter boy, would probably know and learn these things.
I think Irene has something with the significance of the color red. Red is a brilliant color that stands for so many things, as is white. There's a reason we always saw Nicole in white.
I've read some criticism of the L&O shows that believes the shows are anti-religious. I can't really speak as to the Mothership and SVU, but I think LOCI is remarkably balanced. Goren and Eames obviously loathe and despise religious hypocrites and those who use religion for their own end, but they are extremely respectful of those who are truly faithful and try to live their lives as good people.
Patcat
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Post by maherjunkie on Jul 14, 2009 11:21:44 GMT -5
To quote Goren, sometimes a whale is just a whale.
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Post by Patcat on Jul 14, 2009 11:29:05 GMT -5
Well, perhaps, but sometimes it's more than just a large, aquatic mammal. And I'd like to encourage Irene to keep posting her ideas. I may not agree with all of them, but they make me think and I believe they generate some great discussions.
Patcat
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Irene
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"You blew your chance."
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Post by Irene on Jul 14, 2009 11:35:50 GMT -5
There are a lot of Catholics and ex-Catholics running around and running the L&O world. Rene Balcer and Dick Wolf were both raised Catholic (I don't know how they regard themselves now). I've always regarded Alex as having been raised Catholic. It doesn' surprise me that she wouldn't know about some rituals of the Church while Bobby would. Many faithful Catholics don't know the names of some of the things used by the Church. Bobby, as an alter boy, would probably know and learn these things. I think Irene has something with the significance of the color red. Red is a brilliant color that stands for so many things, as is white. There's a reason we always saw Nicole in white. I've read some criticism of the L&O shows that believes the shows are anti-religious. I can't really speak as to the Mothership and SVU, but I think LOCI is remarkably balanced. Goren and Eames obviously loathe and despise religious hypocrites and those who use religion for their own end, but they are extremely respectful of those who are truly faithful and try to live their lives as good people. Patcat Beautifully put, Patcat. All of it. There's an old saying amongst screenwriters: "The setting IS the scene."Sure, you have bad writers and amateurs churning out "independent" films with talking heads, people in a restaurant, people walking down the street, etc. Then they try to "mix it up" and throw in a scene at a bar, an ice cream parlour, or a dry cleaners with scarcely a thought at how, if at all, it would drive the story. EDIT (addition): Think about it. It was huge to let us see Eames outside of work, even more so to see her in her home. She could have just looked in a drawer, or gone to her closet for that red blouse. By involving the dry cleaners (and the accompanying wire hangers), it becomes even more of a question as to how Mulrooney got her blouse (plausibility-wise) but they sacrificed that plausibility for other reasons, i.e. layering the story with a specific subtext. Again, at the level of artistry in a show like LOCI, there is careful consideration given to choice of the locations, wardrobe, props, set dressing, the blocking (e.g. a moving scene or a still scene; or whether it's Goren "alone" in the frame, or in a two-shot w/Eames), and much more.
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Post by DonnaJo on Jul 14, 2009 11:42:58 GMT -5
Pat, I agree with you that the Law & Order franchise, from what I've seen, has always shown respect and deference when it comes to religious themes. Even when dealing with potentially volatile areas, all sides are equally presented. I've always regarded Alex as having been raised Catholic. It doesn' surprise me that she wouldn't know about some rituals of the Church while Bobby would. Many faithful Catholics don't know the names of some of the things used by the Church. Bobby, as an alter boy, would probably know and learn these things. My opinion is that if Eames was also Catholic, she wouldn't phrase her questions to Bobby the way that she does. She would say something like "you know more about that stuff than I do." Her attitude is always that of a bystander. Forgive my memory lapse, but in Season 1's "The Faithful," when she snarks about the priest wanting to convert Bobby, I never got the idea that she was "already converted" (i.e. already a Catholic). Did anyone else?
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Post by maherjunkie on Jul 14, 2009 11:44:34 GMT -5
No knock on Irene, I just don't see the abortion connection. Though you must make a hell of a graduate student.
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Irene
Rookie
"You blew your chance."
Posts: 48
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Post by Irene on Jul 14, 2009 11:56:34 GMT -5
maherjunkieJust curious, but do you see all the parallels between "Lady's Man" and "The Third Horseman" outlined in my Reply #115 of this thread, (the identical story structure and every corresponding plot point), as flukes?And sure-- sometimes a whale IS just a whale. But a whole pod of whales, a circle of sharks, and a school of tuna--- I smell something fishy!
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Post by maherjunkie on Jul 14, 2009 12:16:08 GMT -5
I see them now that you mention them but I still think it's just coincidence. The writers using old themes is nothing new.
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Irene
Rookie
"You blew your chance."
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Post by Irene on Jul 14, 2009 13:51:22 GMT -5
I don't think it's "just coincidence" that out of 100+ episodes, Michael Chernuchin chose "The Third Horseman" as a template for "Lady's Man."
But do understand, I'm not really stating (after all this disquisition!), that in absolute terms it is a fact that Eames had an abortion, but that the writer(s) put that element intentionally into the text, for the purpose of providing variegated viewing experiences as well as inspiring this very kind of debate. Just as Part 1 of my analysis of the Goren/ Eames relationship, explores the device of sexual tension that is used to pull audiences back and forth, keeping them off balance and in need of a resolution (one way or another), the abortion element is structured with the same type of ambivalence, open to multiple valid interpretations. In no way was it a "fluke."
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Post by maherjunkie on Jul 14, 2009 14:04:59 GMT -5
But it isn't even mentioned in the show, she just picks up her laundry.
I see one episode as political, the other as personal.
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Irene
Rookie
"You blew your chance."
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Post by Irene on Jul 14, 2009 14:24:50 GMT -5
"The personal is political."
Landmark quote that virtually defined the Women's Movement.
Carol Hanisch has a brief essay called "The Personal is Political" in the Redstockings collection *Feminist Revolution* -- March 1969 (204-205). The essay defends consciousness-raising against the charge that it is "therapy." Hanisch states "One of the first things we discover in these groups is that personal problems are political problems. There are no personal solutions at this time."
You were just begging for that, weren't you?? ;D
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Post by maherjunkie on Jul 14, 2009 14:27:39 GMT -5
I knew you would say that but I just don't read it that deeply. That Chernuchin drew on previous template in his head doesn't strike as anything other than him being drawn to similiar themes, consciously, or not.
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Post by lovebug on Jul 14, 2009 15:32:02 GMT -5
I loved this episode! Both Kate Erbe and VDO were great and best of all our Bobby is back!
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Post by ypomoni on Jul 14, 2009 15:40:44 GMT -5
hehehe...Irene, it appears more like you were begging for the opportunity to post that quote!
I'm gonna have to agree with the majority here. Sometimes a whale is a whale. There are similarities between two scripts of the same writer - Not a shocker.
I'm not denying your explanations are plausible outcomes, I'm saying that other explanations are as equally plausible and hence I await future episodes to unravel the plot. I'm looking forward to it!
How I love all these different POV! So much to think about...
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Post by tjara on Jul 14, 2009 15:52:29 GMT -5
Irene, I really like your analysis and the way you tend to interweave things. It makes me think about the show differently, and that's quite interesting and thought provoking. However, I have reasons to see things differently, no matter the symbols in the show. I really appreciate the different theories that everyone posts here, even if I can't agree with some (e.g. Patcat an me have different ideas about when Bobby entered the army)
Let me explain with more detail why I don't believe Eames lied or had an abortion. I guess a writer could imply either (as you tried to point out), but then I know writers have to be careful. This is supposed to be a "mainstream" show, and usually the characters on such shows are crafted without any "extreme" views. Even Bobby's "abortion"-reply was "shady" and open to discussion. (And if I remember correctly from the "Third Horseman Thread" quite a few of us thought Bobby wasn't that much pro-choice as he seemed to in his reply, but that's another topic).
Eames is the straight-laced, by the book character in this show. If they wrote her to lie or to have an abortion, it would take away her credibility, because the way her character is crafted, she wouldn't lie, and if she got pregnant, she would deal with the responsibility.
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