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Post by domenicaflor on Feb 17, 2004 0:59:03 GMT -5
Marvelous! The plot was weak to me, but the dancing made up for it. The 2 dance sequences in "Pas de Deux" had 2 completely separate functions: the first was to gather information about Margie and her male dance partner. Like Goren says, it was a test to see how she would follow him. The second was purely to intimidate the suspect by challenging the balance of power so that the leader becomes the follower. In this country by standard conventions two men dancing together generally introduces homoerotic tension which Goren used to throw off the suspect's mental balance. The relation to "Naked Tango" is two-fold: 1) The dance Goren is doing in the interrogation room is Argentine tango, not rumba, judging from the what looks to me like 1/2 molinete and a gancho (Metella can you help me out here? I have to review the tape.) 2)In NT there is a scene where Cholo visits the Judge's mansion in order to see Stephanie (Alba), and he comes under the guise of being her tango teacher. The Judge meets him and starts getting all pompous and arrogant about how he taught her how to dance the tango. He compares leading a woman in tango with driving a performance race car. Cholo challenges the Judge to show him how well he leads the tango by leading him, but the Torres refuses to dance with another man. Cholo goads him on by insisting that the man lead him: " Drive me, drive me harder! " in an attempt to fluster the gentleman and make him prove his masculinity. When Torres won't lead him, Cholo attempts to "flip him" and make him follow, but the older man pulls away and exclaims that he will not dance the woman's part. This leads into some more posturing and threats and ends with Cholo being thrown out of the house. My feeling is that either D'Onofrio planned this for fun, or someone on that writing staff has seen NT and decided to have some fun. Coincidence, I think NOT. Domenica
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Lilee
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 190
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Post by Lilee on Feb 17, 2004 1:55:22 GMT -5
SInce we seem to have so many girls on this board, get your calcium! (seeing this 6'3 giant in your face would have startled most people). Although you wonder how it would have gone if he'd fallen into the mode fo her guy: suave, smooth, take-charge, confident. Hmm, interesting. You wonder how hard Deakins was snickering from the other side of the mirror now that the Goren show was back in town. re: calcium. It metabolizes better if taken with, what? VITAMIN C! You know, catbird, the pills that weren't a problem. re: that frame, Hell, wouldn't startle me!! I do think he played up the shy guy to sorta draw attention away from the fact that he was leading and she let him. Smoooth! re: Goren show. I also had that phrase come to mind when I noticed all the officers, etc. in the hallway once they opened the door to let him out. The good stuff was pretty much over, but Goren still had a pretty good audience by the end!
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Post by Metella on Feb 17, 2004 7:43:53 GMT -5
First, let me say Naked Tango is Rated R for a reason; but a naked Mr. D'Onofrio is not one of them. Yes, the two dances were Totally for different reasons & it showed - I don't think the first one was a tango - everyone was shuffling about like druged zombies & I don't know other dances well enough to pick them out. The interrogation tango - oh too close to the scene Dom mentioned to be a chance writing. I usually take the other track on the purpose behind things - this one reflects that too well. Dom, notice Goren's hand when he pulls Donnie into position ..... he twitst his hand in - closing the two into their own environment. Also like Tango, he doesn't venture to glance at his feet, even when he is in the process of assaulting the suspect (yes, that was legal assault) by placing Donnie's legs about with his own legs. I would not use the term homoerotic - homo, yes but the guy was far to off balanced to be stuggling with issues like "am I getting arroused by touching this guy" or some such. He was just totally off balanced by being so close to another man ONE and TWO by being totally marionetted like a boy puppet by a strong aggressive man; usually that was his position. When your whole life character has just been dumped - it throws you off balance. I think their chests were touching? I haven't watched that twice, pretty close to tango stuff - I know a girl who had done a slew of different dances & nearly ran screaming for the hills when she was put in the start position for tango ha ha ha ha ha One prays for a partner with decent breath!
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Post by Metella on Feb 17, 2004 7:45:12 GMT -5
Dom - if you tango with me ...... I'll let you drive
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Post by trisha on Feb 17, 2004 9:39:50 GMT -5
ITA.
Lilee, thanks for the concurrence about the parking tickets. I know that this isn't the first episode that dealt with identity crisis and manipulations, but it was done differently, and done well, IMO. There was no sexual angle like in Sound Bodies, and there was no spiritual angle, like in Con-text. This was about money and the thrill of doing something dangerously illegal and totally out of character for Margie. For Donnie, it wasn't about the money or sex. Neither mattered to him in his state. He had no control over his life and fast approaching death. What he could control was Margie and people like her. He controled their every move, and how and when they died.
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Post by janetcatbird on Feb 17, 2004 13:28:28 GMT -5
Actually it's Vitamin D needed to absorb calcium, that's why so many supplements are Calcium+D.
It was sort of unusual for all the other officers to be crowded in the doorway--I'm sure it would happen with a guy like that in the precinct, but how often do we see it?
Of course the guy would freak out being put in the position of the follower, especially since in his mind follower=weak, able to be manipulated. No one likes to feel that way, especially a guy like Donnie. But who likes to be pulled that close to a stranger: even if he is a nie guy like GOren and he's not out to get you, I for one wouldn't want that with a person I hardly knew. (Although maybe that's just me.) And I didn't mean to imply that just cause someone's huge you'd be scared, but if you weren't paying attention (Margie was busy looking for Donnie) anybody popping out of nowhere would make you start.
Gee, guess I ought to see "Naked Tango" one of these days, since it seems to be a popular favorite.
Poor Margie, I never make connections like "begging to be caught", but that was a good way to point it out. You just hope this woman gets some much-needed counseling. Although I'm not sure they were letting her completely off, maybe I blanked out but I was under the impression that it would be for a commuted sentence (or whatever the term is). I don't remember hearing negotiation, but we've seen enough Law & Order to know that her lawyer, who seemed pretty competent, would be wheelin' and dealin' for a lesser penalty.
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Post by Metella on Feb 17, 2004 20:42:52 GMT -5
my philosophy is that people can move forward from their past ..... meaning that an action in the past is not necessarily the definition of a person's character. HOWEVER, it most often is. Another words, a lier is a lier. A slimly gossiping backstaber is a .... so you get it.
now, that as a preface to this: The two submissive partners (dupes) of Donnie; do you think they were set up so we felt sorry for them? What do you think the writer's intent was for them - or perhaps it was defined.
I think most of the time the writers leave it undefined by intent - the more open you leave something, the more the audience member can interpret what they want to see and make the substance more their own.
I just don't feel any compassion for a woman who has two children and a decent husband and gets so locked up in her pity party that she does this ..... up to the purse stealing - OK. Sneak out to dance, paint & hook up with a dashing bad boy; but then she could have used all of this in a confession to her husband, since she hadn't slept with the guy, as a way to show how she had be unbalanced & then lean on him. Everyone loves to be leaned on and to help. It wasn't solely weakness on her part, but a fundamental uncaring about her family.
The guy, he was alone and I do feel more sorry for him; he had an x-wife who seemed a bit of a nag and a user and he was overweight and alone and feeling like a looser. Robbing banks for him, I could see it.
What about Donnie? I'm not into that he did it just to have the thrill of manipulating people; well, maybe, since he couldn't manipulate them into bed. I don't know, it is too soft for me here.
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Post by darmok on Feb 17, 2004 21:49:16 GMT -5
I enjoyed this episode. I was disappointed that I couldn't see Eames plant the pills. Some people have said it was right at the end; her hand goes out of view, but she's on his left side, and the pills were in his right pocket. I know I'm picky, but I don't ignore mistakes like that.
I liked the scene when Carver is letting Goren know that he thinks he's going after Margie as a response for E/N's verdict. Goren gets upset - probably not directly at Carver. I love the "evidence" he offers in his defense - "It was also the way she followed me around the dance floor." Well, let's get that arrest warrant right away. ;D Carver was sympathetic while being realistic, "Get me probable cause and I'll help you save her." (or something to that effect) The exchange between Eames and Goren after Deakins and Carver left shows the progress that's been made since POI. She lets him know up front (but still not in front of others) that she has her doubts. He acknowledges this with a nod and proceeds to show more tangible evidence in the form of parking ticket locations (why didn't he show Carver, too?)
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Post by trisha on Feb 17, 2004 21:50:51 GMT -5
I don't know if the viewers are meant to feel sympathy for Margie and Ernie, but they are exactly the type of people who get Goren's sympathy.
I have a different perspective on Margie because I have known women who went through an early mid-life crisis or identity crisis. That numbness is real. She was so lost that she couldn't give her child a face in a painting, so what does that say about the kind of mother she was to her children? Did she feed them and clothe them? Yes. Did she pick them up from day care on time? Yes. Did she hug and kiss them out of pure love and affection? Probably not. These are the types of warning signs her husband was either too stupid or too self involved to notice. There was no love or light in her eyes, how do you miss that in your spouse?
So, Margie didn't have a decent husband, and her children were no source of joy for her, nor could she be for them. I don't think it was a fundamental uncaring, though. Her husband had a deeply inlayed set of beliefs about her being a good person. These must have been founded on something real. But, he also described the roles she plays more that the type of person she is. So, to me that said he thinks she was a good, if boring, person and he is probably the main cause for her dissent.
She was on autopilot and ready for someone like Donnie to swoop in and take the controls. First he flattered her and made her feel like a woman. Then he tempted her to live more dangerously by cutting out on a check and stealing a purse. She followed his lead as though still on the dance floor, and she began to feel like she was someone special, and not just another mini-van driving mommy tooling back and forth from school and the grocery store. It must have been a real pleasure for her at first to come home with her little secret, but the more time she spent away from home, the fewer reasons she saw in going back. Mr. Excitement had created a monster.
Donnie, is totally another story, and really the most interesting part of the episode. Though he was a life long criminal, he was never violent until killing Ernie. His motives for the robberies had nothing to do with sex, money, or a new and exciting identity. They were all of no consequence to him, he wad dying and fast. He was a man who had no control over his sexual organs, or even how often he used the bathroom. For a man like him that must have been humiliating. The only control he could exact was over Margie, Ernie, and people like them. It was all about control for him, and the ultimate exercise of his control was to schedule the time and method of his and Margies deaths by manipulating cops to do the dirty work for him. That was as close to an orgasm as he could get.
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Post by Metella on Feb 17, 2004 22:06:38 GMT -5
Darmok - most welcome! Great to read you.
Trisha: I disagree that I felt any more than normal from Goren towards the two; meaning I don't think he had specific feelings of sympathy for them.
I do see your point on Margie and her faceless children and her numbness of living. In rethinking this in your framework - I totally agree that the husband should have been able to see her spark had slipped away; I would expect a spouse to pick up on me if I had just a down mood, let alone a life-identity crisis! I guess then, I am softer toward her, I have been blind to things right in front of my face before - so I guess she could have been blinded by finally feeling blood flowing again .....
Catbird - your truth is your truth, I look forward to you always sharing it.
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Post by trisha on Feb 17, 2004 22:14:17 GMT -5
Well, I don't mean that he felt more for them than anyone else specifically, but he has demonstrated and even verbalized how much it pisses him off to see innocent people being manipulated the way Donnie did Margie and Ernie. Darmok! You slipped in right before me, I'm sorry I missed you there. Welcome
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coth
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 78
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Post by coth on Feb 17, 2004 22:32:45 GMT -5
I really enjoyed the episode. With the dearth of new episodes lately, I have been watching my Season 1 DVD. I am wondering if Eames is actually being more out spoken than normal, or if after the Bishop deficit of personality it just seems that way.
As Catbird has already said, I am not looking to see a relationship (i. e. romantic) develop between Eames and Goren, but I was a bit disappointed that they did not dance together. I think the nuances would have been interesting had that occurred. I also saw a bit of an underlaying dichotomy in the relationship between Donny (I thought someone called him Johnny) and Margie and Eames and Goren. Goren has been in a circumstance of a manic/depressive personality. His mother. I have also been around people like this, the highs are places you would never think of going yourself and the lows leave you wondering when the highs will return. He seems to be sympathetic to this attitude that other people may be swayed by, but understands the ultimate disappointment that will occur. Eames is never swayed by this sort of thing, even though she may understand or acknowledge it, she is basically grounded in reality. She is a person that would never be led or misled by an alpha personality. She is not someone who would follow the leader, or give anyone a pass for doing so. As close as Goren and she may become, they are people who have a totally different take on life in general.
Loved the dance scene at the end, rather than browbeating the suspect, why not dance with him? Exactly, what is the defense attorney going to say, "Your honor, the detective danced with my client and also took the lead..."
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Post by trisha on Feb 18, 2004 12:52:34 GMT -5
I'm curious, coth, do you think that Margie was manic depressive instead of suffering from identity crisis? She didn't seem manic to me, just lost.
I agree that Eames is less sympathetic than Goren. Though I can see where Margie was coming from and how a man like Donnie could easily control her, I am closer to Eame's level of sympathy, maybe even less so. I am a firm believer in people taking responsibility for their own actions. Donnie may have been using her, but he didn't have a gun to her head. If I were on her jury I would have no second thoughts about sending her to Bedford to serve out sentences for each robbery consecutively, but it wouldn't surprise me if Goren would prefer a lighter sentence. Call me hard hearted, but a lot bank robberies are botched to the point of innocent lives being lost, not to mention the fact that we honest tax payers are the ones being robbed, not the banking establishment its self. Why go light on these people? I say send the message loud and clear, "No deals, assholes."
You also brought up my personal favorite part of this episode, Eames Time. Yes, she was totally down played in the first and second season. It drove me absolutely nuts to see her being both literally and proverbially upstaged in just about every scene of every episode. She is finally getting the attention from the writers that many of us have been begging for, and imo, she deserves. She is a great character, after all, so developing her further can only be a good thing.
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coth
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 78
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Post by coth on Feb 18, 2004 17:16:20 GMT -5
Actually the manic/depressive personality I was refering to was Donny(Donnie). Someone lost and in need of direction might choose someone like this as Margie did. Someone as unsure of who she is like Margie was easily drawn into this, whereas Eames would not be. I also want to be clear that I am not trying to use labels with manic/depressive, or any other terms, just as a description.
I could be wrong but it seems to me that Eames has become more vocal as the series has progressed, especially toward the second half of Season 2 and this year before she went on leave. I think the more they do with Eames the better the show will be and hopefully will keep Erbe interested enough to continue through the duration.
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Post by janetcatbird on Feb 19, 2004 15:51:03 GMT -5
Admittedly, the hubby could have been a lot more in tune. He might not have been abusive, but I think neglectful comes to mind. Marital counseling comes to mind, not just Margie on her own. But he honestly didn't mean harm, his panic and concern as they were searching the van showed that he was worried about his wife.
I thought they were doing more with Eames! used to be we had to work and interpret, now at least they give us stuff to talk about. I'm pretty sure this came with the pregnancy. The writers ahd to explain it somehow, and this little mother-to-be waddling around the police station is bound to get noticed. (I kept expecting to see tennis shoes propped on a side chair, mucnhing on crackers to settle her stomach as she read a report or took a phone call.) So from there it's easier to give her stuff to do, especially once she's had the baby and is back to work. Like I said somewhere, any professional (actress and/or cop) is going to be eager to get back in the swing of things after an absence.
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