coth
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 78
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Post by coth on Feb 20, 2004 5:06:10 GMT -5
Okay, people mea culpa. My "manic/depressive" analysis was totally wrong. Donny was more in a magus mode and delusions of granduer than anything else. I watched the episode two more times and can't help but wonder what idiot wrote the previous analysis. Possibly, they were watching an episode of "My Big Fat Geek Bachlorette" or something. I will always admit when I am wrong, but, by Godfrey, I'll never admit when I'm right!!
I also went back and watched three episodes from Season 1 and a couple from Season 2, and I also have to admit that Eames was underused in the episodes I watched. I think that Erbe is one of those actresses that are able to convey a lot of emotion with minimal activity. I do not want to see LOCI go into the "Hey, let's explore their off-duty lives" approach. I think the hints they give us and even some of the heavy-handed glimpses into Goren's past are very interesting.
Back to Eames, I know I sometimes take for granted her entire approach to Goren's brilliance. I do believe that she keeps him grounded, and also points out the fallacies in his deductions when she feels it is necessary. A person not comfortable in who they are might feel threatened by this, but Eames is not. I don't think anyone on this board ever took Eames for granted, but if any of us did I think the Bishop experiment cured us of that. Erbe is able to deliver a totally believeable turn as, as she said, "a meat and potatoes cop", and it seems to lend credibility to Goren's brilliant deductions. Erbe is not only a very attractive addition to this show, I think she is indespensible and I hope she stays for the duration. I look forward to more interplay like "Bobby, you know I'm good for the ride, but I just don't see it." Goren is never bothered by this, because he trusts Eames and while he may not feel the need to prove his deductions to Carver or Deakins, he always wants Eames to understand where his mind is going. L&O has been famous, or infamous, for replacing actors but I really think that D'Onofrio and Erbe are essential to the continued excellence of this series. The more they do with her the better.
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Post by trisha on Feb 20, 2004 11:35:42 GMT -5
What good is having enough character to admit when your are wrong if you are going to turn around and gloat whenever you're right? (coming from one who will admit being wrong, but has been known to give an "I told you so" here and there ;D)
I'll tell you this much, coth, you sure made me second guess my own deductions about Donnie. I don't keep my mind in a locked box, so I always appreciate that.
I have looked around on other boards, and it seems that I am the only one who came right to the conclusion that Margie was having an identity crisis and that Donnie was a bitter and impotent megalomaniac. That made me second guess myself, too. These are still not even brought up on other sites, let alone discussed, so thank dog I have you guys.
Another thing about Eames... not only has she been given more lines, she has been given a lot more personality. Just look at her first and early second season wardrobe. Of coarse she would be beautiful in a garbage bag, but she looks much better in her brown lowriders we saw in Monster. We haven't seen her in those "sensible shoes" from Con-text in a while, either. I'm glad. Her new look gives her more flare, the kind of flare you would expect with her sardonic attitude.
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Post by popularlibrary on Feb 21, 2004 10:49:06 GMT -5
Trisha - if I ever get my scattered act together, I'll try to write something about this episode, but I had to tell you I think you are absolutely right about our two principal dancers - identity funk and megalomania do cover it nicely. The title was so perfect. This was a series of pas de deux in which Donnie thought he was not only the premier danseur, but also the choreographer. But Goren takes over the choreography, and the ballerina develops an independent streak that drives her partner over the edge. In ballet, a pas de deux presumes a cavalier effacing himself to display his ballerina's beauty and brilliance. He uses his greater strength to enable her to accomplish feats she could not alone, and she responds by trusting and relying on him to emphasize his power and skill. and their love for each other. It is a perfect balance of the display and the restraint of ego.
Here Donny tries to display Margie, to urge her on to greater and greater criminal feats to satisfy his own ego, and is stunned when she wrecks his choreography by leaving her husband and putting him in the impossible position of having to play lover when he is impotent and dying. Goren understands, and tries to use the forced tango pas de deux to make Margie see the truth.
It's also interesting that the deadliest dance in the CI world - between Goren and Elizabeth/Nicole - forms the background of the episode. It is horribly appropriate that we find out here that E/N is now free to continue their own twisted duet.
I only wish the script had been fully up to a brilliant concept. CI scripts aren't often sloppy, but this one was. We are never given enough of those little details that enrich our understanding of the criminal's pathology, the 'Johnnie' pseudonym is tossed in carelessly though a word on why he was using it would have strengthened the portrait of Donnie's mind, and several of the details of the crime struck me as fuzzy. Nor did the acting help - Charles Rocket was too bland as Donnie. I never got a sense of his tension, his fear or his anger, nor did I feel his will to power and domination. It was there abstractly, in the plot structure, but it wasn't there in the performance. And why was Margie not directed to show at least a trace of shock when her former dance partner turns out to be a cop breaking in to arrest her.
It was a strange episode - a mixture of brilliant moments and odd failures. The concept, and the great moments save it from its own inadequacies, but it could and should have been one of the great episodes.
Elena
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Post by darmok on Feb 21, 2004 21:27:44 GMT -5
I agree that it could have been a great episode. At first watching, I did think it was great. Usually rewatching helps catch a lot that missed. That happened this time, too; but this time the missed things turned out to be mistakes. Popularlibrary, you catch a lot more of the subtleties in the plot than I do. Being an engineer, I focus on the things that don't make sense. I should let some of the "oops" go, but I can't. Thankfully, there aren't too many in CI. There were at least 2 in this episode, and for me, these are what keep this episode from being great.
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Post by janetcatbird on Feb 21, 2004 22:10:29 GMT -5
Yeah, it did seem a little flat. I dunno, Eames got her time in the spotlight, and they threw out the reference to E/N. BUt there didn't seem to be anything that stood out besides Goren's 'Terrogation Rhumba. Obviously a benumbed housewife like Margie isn't supposed to be over the top, but the acting in Donnie did seem a little blah.
Hey, Darmok, you're an in-gain-eer too? I grew up with one, unfortunately I missed that spacial management gene. But it was great help in math homework! (Even if he does drive you nuts explaining technical details in the middle of movies!) Actually you've got a cool perspective to add to this group--we tend to get caught up in the subtle nuances and then it takes somebody to point out the blaring obviousness of some stuff.
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Post by domenicaflor on Mar 3, 2004 21:57:00 GMT -5
The interrogation tango - oh too close to the scene Dom mentioned to be a chance writing. I usually take the other track on the purpose behind things - this one reflects that too well. Dom, notice Goren's hand when he pulls Donnie into position ..... he twitst his hand in - closing the two into their own environment. Also like Tango, he doesn't venture to glance at his feet, even when he is in the process of assaulting the suspect (yes, that was legal assault) by placing Donnie's legs about with his own legs. I would not use the term homoerotic - homo, yes but the guy was far to off balanced to be stuggling with issues like "am I getting arroused by touching this guy" or some such. He was just totally off balanced by being so close to another man ONE and TWO by being totally marionetted like a boy puppet by a strong aggressive man; usually that was his position. When your whole life character has just been dumped - it throws you off balance. I think their chests were touching? I haven't watched that twice, pretty close to tango stuff - I know a girl who had done a slew of different dances & nearly ran screaming for the hills when she was put in the start position for tango ha ha ha ha ha One prays for a partner with decent breath! Yes, I noticed. Goren draws him completely into framed position and their chests are touching. He didn't need to look at his feet because he could lead without it, even if his hapless mortified partner was resisting every step. Donnie had to literally shove Goren out of the way to stop him. Perhaps homo-phobic is a better term although I don't mean hatred of gay and lesbian people, I mean the strong fear and unease caused by close proximity to another male in a pseudo-sexual situation. Donnie was freaking out, and I think the male partner aspect of that fear was equal to the sudden role reversal. Here's a little thought on the possible reason for the name change: Donnie Burns is a world champion international latin dancer. (cf. an interview here www.dancesport.uk.com/articles/burns.htm). Maybe they wanted to make a little subtle play on the villain's name?? Have you seen the Japanese movie "Shall We Dance"? In it, one of the Japanese men who practice ballroom dance takes the nickname of Donnie after Donnie Burns to appear more chic. That would also be another reason the reference to Naked Tango works. In NT, Judge Torres dances the exported, purified, more international version of the tango (eg. on the ship) and he claims to be the tango "expert". Cholo learned the original, traditional tango on the streeet with other compadritos and in the bordellos and clubs of Buenos Aires. In "Pas de Deux", Donnie and Margie are studying at a standard ballroom class not an Argentine tango class. Goren, at least to me, definitely is using more of an AT hold, frame, and steps. I know that sometimes I over-analyze LOCI eps and films, but in this case, I definitely think the writer(s) must have seen NT. D.
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Post by domenicaflor on Mar 3, 2004 22:01:46 GMT -5
Dom - if you tango with me ...... I'll let you drive Why thank you, Miss Metella, how kind of you Unlike Judge Torres and his race cars, I am more in tune with Bobby Goren and his appreciation of sleek and lovely cherry red Ferraris...... (Not to worry - even if I am leading I am always the perfect gentleman... er.... lady) D.
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Post by lawcat on Nov 8, 2005 20:48:19 GMT -5
I can't wait to see this episode when it runs again in a couple of weeks. I was a big fan of Charles Rocket's.
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Post by kawaiidragonfoe821 on Nov 11, 2005 22:16:54 GMT -5
Sailors and site admins. Careful, girl! Anyway, I really did like this episode. I was curious about the tea drinking man who asked for the bathroom key *a lot*, but I was sure they were having sex. I guess I just can't imagine a woman who is having an affair worthy of leaving her husband and child that didn't involve mad, passionate sex. Margie was easily manipulated, though, and I have met a few women like her who were manipulated into a stupid relationship with a worthless a-hole when she really did love her husband. It comes with an identity crisis. Margie got lost in suburbia, and the roles she plays and place she lives became the only identity she could see anymore. Anything was better than that. what i couldnt believe is that she how she didnt take goren's bait at the dance class, man he had the 'charm' dail on high didnt he? If would have melted into liquid right on the floor if he had said that to me LOL ;D. What was the dance thing about btw donny & bobby in the interrogation room? what was the whole thing behind that besides trying to convence margie that he was going to kill them? Also, Eames sueprised me w/ the way she lost her cool about the starter's pistol, bobby looked surprised too didnt he?
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Post by E. McCoy on Nov 13, 2005 11:25:23 GMT -5
Finally saw this ep. (Thank you amazon.com for delivering it before the weekend) First off I love it when Eames and Goren pose as a married couple/bf-gf. It kills me everytime. Because really I could never see them together. I also enjoyed the dance in interigation! Goren never stops amaizing me with the stuff he pulls/gets away with. Finally cheers to Eames for being the one to put the guy away by sneaking the tablets into his pocket....Bobby can't have all the fun!!
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Post by spaniard on May 17, 2006 9:04:38 GMT -5
I don´t know where to post this so I will do it here because I saw it in a few episodes, including this one. I´ve seen that lots of places in LOCI are called 'B & C something'. Is that some kind of commercial acronym in the States or is it just that writers like those two letters?
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Post by yasmin on Sept 15, 2007 20:48:50 GMT -5
OK. I know this thread is old. After waiting like maybe 9 months for it to be shown in the UK I finally got to see this episode in July on Hallmark as a repeat. I only wanted to watch this because Charlie Rocket was in it. ( although I have seen other eps) Things were going on Charlie Rocket's life so i've had to separate the story line from what else I was observing. I liked this episode. The idea of someone using someone else just to get them into a situation where you might get killed by a cop..........strange way to attempt to commit suicide Margie was the bored " little housewife ". Donny picked up on it He had already used Eric. She wanted to be caught -I mean not paying her parking tickets. She let herself be used very, very easily. & Donny was portrayed as a real gentlemen ( if you catch my drift). She must've thought I got a good one here. The writers want us to read between the lines. Donny's character is that he used people for his own advantage - taking the lead. That's why Goren danced Donny round the interview room as if to say " How do you like being lead & manipulated ". That scene was pretty funny really. Both blokes well over 6ft. ( Charlie was 6ft 5, I think Vincent is 6ft 4 ). Very, very up close & personal. ( i wonder what was going through the actors' minds when they were doing it.). Rene Balcer said that Pas de deux was originally a dance of death between 2 men, eventually over time becoming a dance between a man & a woman. You'll find a 40 second interview on this somewhere on this link: video.usanetwork.com/player/?id=81054#videoid=81051No wonder they called this ep: Pas de Deux......... As to the 17 tablets on the table when Goren was interviewing Donny there were never 17 - the most I counted was 13.....& no-one put them in his pocket in that interview But that doesn't mean to say that they weren't put there earlier when Donny was out the room as a last minute resort.... hummm. Did anyone notice Charlie Rocket's finger injury on his left hand that wasn't part of the story.....?. He doesn't have it in at least 1 scene - if it was part of the story he would've most definately had it on that particular scene ( he has it on in earlier & later scenes.) Did anyone notice there was no continuity on Charlie Rocket ( apart from his clothes.). If you've got this on tape or DVD go back & have a look @ his hair, hands, skin on his face & his eyes in his scenes. See if you notice anything.......... It is like watching 2 people play one role............ Charlie Rocket was going through some very personal / private change whilst filming this episode. Discount the story -line & you can still see this change. I wrote about my observations on myspace a/c & some of the things I know about Charlie & in my opinion his reasons for taking his own life (link after my name) yasmin in memory of Charles Rocket www.myspace.com/132501307
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Post by ragincajun on Sept 16, 2007 9:44:53 GMT -5
I didn't know that Charles had commited suicide, I read your site, I will have to watch the episode again, he was a very good actor.
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Post by Patcat on Aug 13, 2010 8:30:39 GMT -5
Bump for EOTW.
Patcat
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