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Post by diablodeblanco on Mar 19, 2007 13:13:29 GMT -5
I'm wondering if the reason Goren mentioned the cardboard frame around the daughter's picture (Grow) was it hinted that daddy didn't really cherish his daughter. Most people run out and get a nice frame to put an important photo in. That the girl's pic was for show and perhaps to help divert attention away from him when the daughter died as a result of the cancer daddy dearest encouraged. There have been other episodes where pictures have helped Goren get a little better feel of the players involved.
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Post by Patcat on Mar 19, 2007 13:30:37 GMT -5
Remember, though, that Goren's mother was clearly very traumitized by the events of IN THE WEE SMALL HOURS. Could it be that she was calmer and easier to deal with before her life was invaded?
Patcat
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Post by ragincajun on Mar 19, 2007 14:23:39 GMT -5
Maybe we need a new thread this is getting off topic, but after his interaction with Howard in the episode about the priest who killed his son,( cant think of the name). Eames said you were good with Howard, and Goren said I had practice. So I don't think mom was ever calm.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Mar 19, 2007 14:42:18 GMT -5
If I remember correctly, Momma Goren became very agitated to the point of needing to be restrained because a goon hired by Hot Tub Harry began probing into Goren's personal life. No telling what final remark put her over the edge but I don't think it took much to make it happen. I doubt the goon handled her as gently or compassionately as Goren does. The goon did manage to get out of her that Bobby still harbored an intense dislike for his father, or something to that extent. It's merely my opinion that as long as things go Frances' way all is calm and wonderful in her world. I believe the mental illness has robbed her of any coping skills when life becomes stressful or uncomfortable.
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Post by Cassie on Mar 19, 2007 15:05:24 GMT -5
Hi DonnaJo, I am not sure what you mean by: Wishful Thing, Cassie? ;D Is it my theory that the writers, producers might have wanted to please ALL of the fans, since the early days? Or me possibly daydreaming that Goren, put the pic in his pocket cause he has a thing for Eames? Nah..... I like Eames, but, I don't want those two dating. I wonder who would be a good lover for Eames, maybe Det. Paul Falsone (Jon Seda) from Homicide: Life on the Street. now he could put a smile of her face:)
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Post by DonnaJo on Mar 19, 2007 17:47:16 GMT -5
Ooops, sorry Cassie! I realized I misread your post - I was rushing through it quickly to get to my job. I thought you were saying that you were one of the fans who fancied that romantic words were exchanged at that hospital bedside. I agree, romance between those two? Eeeeeeeewwwwww. Yes, definitely one of the Homicide Detectives! I prefer Det. Tim Bayliss for Eames. He's tall & sweet & smart. A little like Goren, but without the quirky ways.
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ladyday
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 53
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Post by ladyday on Mar 19, 2007 21:32:54 GMT -5
You certainly have scrutinized the picture taking. I tend to agree with the "taking it home to put with the other pictures in his life". To me this explanation makes more sense.
Much has been said and analyzed about the mental state and clinging nature of Francis Goren. As Goren stated, I too have had a lot of practice with schizophrenia. Yes you will get daily calls. If you do not hear from them for several days, you'd better check. Stress brings on crisis. They have great difficulty dealing with it. Paranoia, along with delusions and visions can be present. Hearing voices is common. No, you cannot argue with them while in a heightened state.
Francis Goren's problems began to manifest when Bobby was about eight. She was probably in her early thirties at onset, her husband was likely gone by then or soon after. Some can manifest at 18. I have no experience with children and this disease. Hospitalization is sporadic, and medication will not always counter symptoms. Even when it does, the underlying disease is still there.
They can worry and abnormally obsess over illnesses they think they might have or get. Having a real terminal disease can bring one to the point almost of hysteria and total unreasonableness. We saw this in TWAH, and Brother's Keeper
I will not bore you by continuing this explanation, my only reason for adding it is to say that some of her behavior is because of her disease. This is a very tough illness on those who live with the patient, and those who treat them. At times they can be extremely dangerous to themselves and others. Have you ever been chocked by one? I have.
Some men will begin to see signs of disease and leave, but will not take their children. If they, as an adult cannot handle the patient, how do they expect this of a child? All this time, Bobby has been caretaker for his mother. Children resent, feel anger and great guilt. This is what Bobby was talking about when he became angry with himself after the father was killed by the daughter.
"I should have seen it." he said. He knew the anger. Of a child for a parent. He was angry with his mother for getting sick and no longer being the woman he knew, and with his father for abandoning them all.
If this is determined inappropriate for the thread, I do apologise.
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Post by Techguy on Mar 20, 2007 1:41:35 GMT -5
Ladyday, I think your comments are very appropriate for this episode thread. I agree with you about how stress can bring on crisis. And your take on the final scene in SS is very much in line with what I have thought, that Goren realizes too late that Julie's anger with her parents is very much like his own. I think he might also have seen his parents' anger toward each other when he was a very young child, before his father left. I also think there's a lot more going on in the opening scene, when Goren is examining the body of Julie's mother. It looks to me like he is in some distress, as if recalling a painful episode from his childhood. Which makes his failure to prevent Julie's killing her father all the more difficult to accept.
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Post by DonnaJo on Mar 20, 2007 7:57:10 GMT -5
Yes, its been mentioned on this board in the past that Goren seemed reluctant to look at the dead woman, Julie's mom, in the bathtub in the opening crime scene. Which is odd, because he had no problem in the past (see Jones) with that, or any other, type of murder scene. In Graansha, he got an inch away from the mutilated face of the woman who was run over by the car to smell her breathe. Eames even turned her head from the sight.
So, perhaps his mother (another older woman) once tried to commit suicide in or around a bathtub, and he either stopped her or discovered her?
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Post by Patcat on Mar 20, 2007 8:33:26 GMT -5
Yes, ladyday, thank you for your comments. My very limited contact with mental illness is with people suffering from depression, a very different story I gather from those suffering from schizophrenia.
Donnajo, an interesting point and possibility.
Patcat
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Post by ragincajun on Mar 20, 2007 13:48:46 GMT -5
Very good Ladyday and donnajo, Goren has mentioned he was 7 when his mom got sick and his mom was 32. Gunna have to pull out this epi and watch it again now. Never noticed he was hesitant about looking at the body.
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Post by Observer2 on Mar 21, 2007 2:41:07 GMT -5
I was one of the ones who commented on this in the past, though I think it was on a different board. Goren's reaction is quite marked; and, as I recall, he turns away from the body as soon as he can -- not typical behavior for him. There may also be something in his voice... it's been a long time since I've seen this episode. In any case, also keep your eye on Eames... she clearly notices Goren's reaction.
I don't necessarily think the manner of death had much to do with Goren's reaction... I don't think his mother needs to have tried to commit suicide in a bath tub. I think the fact that she was close to his mother in age, she was dead, and she was nude would have been enough to cause a reaction in Goren.
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Post by Observer2 on Mar 21, 2007 3:19:23 GMT -5
From what he have seen up till now. I think Bobby keeps his personal life personal. And keeps work at work. The way Eames didn't find out about his mom's cancer till he told the cop in Siren Call. Not sure when she found out about his mom's mental illness. But in TWAH he wasn't sharing at all... . You may or may not be right about Frances not asking about Goren's work... some very self-centered parents also pry a lot into their kids' lives, if only to be able to make critical comments. But as far as Goren talking to Eames about his mom, I think we’ve seen evidence that he usually does to some extent. For instance, in See Me he explains something to Eames about his mom’s bi-polar roommate – with the clear implication that Eames knows where his mom lives and wouldn’t be shocked that she would have a roommate with a mental disorder. Also, in TWAH, just the way she asks about how his mom, and her reaction when he ignores her, suggests to me that she’s used to some level of communication from him about his mom. I think Goren’s flat ignoring of Eames’ questions about his mom in TWAH is unusual, and indicates something about just how stressed Goren is. I work for a psychologist, and when patients come into the office I’m not allowed to say “How are you?” Even if they say “How are you?” to me, I can’t reply with the very normal, “Fine. How are you?” That’s because sometimes people’s ability to keep their emotional turmoil under wraps is very fragile, and the question “How are you?” can trigger a flood of emotion. I think in TWAH, that was Goren’s situation. If he had tried to answer Eames’ question about how his mom was, he might have lost his emotional balance and said too much, too emotionally, and had a hard time being able to focus on the job at hand.
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Post by DonnaJo on Mar 21, 2007 17:11:52 GMT -5
It him home for me, Observer2, your comments on your job in the psychologists office. I, too, work with people going through emotional turmoil. I have a bad habit of greeting people with the standard "Hello, how are you?" or "Hi, how are you doing?" It's understood by most people that you aren't really asking for a detailed synopsis of their lives; that it's just a greeting.
At work, asking that question can be deadly. A flood of tears & verbal venting. Sometimes hysterics & anger at the world. I always want to kick myself.
I can see how Goren would fear letting go too much if he allowed himself to mention even a single detail. I've been there.
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ladyday
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 53
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Post by ladyday on Mar 21, 2007 19:49:42 GMT -5
I think that Bobby discovering Francis Goren having attempted suicide is very plausible. This could have been the episode that caused her initial hospitalization and diagnosis.
I also agree that Goren probably told his partner about his mother's mental illness and her institutionalization. This is evident from their conversations in some previous episodes.
Eames appears to be aware that Goren is very hands on with his mother's care. She has seen him talk to her doctors on the telephone. I am sure that she has over heard him speaking to his mother.
In TWAH she covered for him as he went to see about his mother. In Privilege, when he became angry at the son for mistreating his mother, she cautioned the offender.
Concerning whether or not he speaks to his mother about his job, it would appear, that he does to which extent she will allow. I would glean this from her comments during TWAH and Brother's Keeper. She clearly knew that he was working on a high profile case (Brother's Keeper).
In my line of work I was required to ask how the individual was doing because this dialog was exactly what I needed. Of course it needed to be directed to determine how they were handling stress, and what progress was or was not being made.
However, I can understand how asking such open ended questions can open the flood gates. I cannot see Goren allowing himself to bare himself in such a manner to his partner. Nevertheless, I do believe that she knows of his father abandoning them as was indicated in "A Person of Interest." These were the buttons that Nicole Wallace pushed in her episodes with him.
I find this thread most stimulating. Good comments and insight.
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