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Post by Sirenna on Nov 7, 2004 22:24:07 GMT -5
Yeah! I pipped Trisha to the post to start a new thread! I liked this one. I know two subjects are going to come up for this one: Goren's past childhood and Goren-Carver relations. As for the last, I think this one showed how much Carver really likes Goren.
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Post by Patcat on Nov 7, 2004 22:45:11 GMT -5
Oops! I'm sorry--I posted at the same time as Sirenna--could one of our magnificent moderators move my thread to a post here?
Patcat (knows just enough to be dangerous!)
ETA: from other deleted thread - So, let's give both Goren and Eames plenty of angst!
The episode somewhat echoed the case of several years ago in Texas where a mother drowned her children in the bathtub. The husband in that case was, however, only clueless and not a monster.
I liked Deakins' direction of the case--in fact, I've liked that throughout this season.
Carver, on the other hand, is getting on my nerves. (No criticism of Courtney Vance intended--he's terrific, and very good at butting heads with D'Onofrio.) The husband all but kills the kids himself and helps drive the mother crazy, but you can't do anything about it? What about evidence tampering? Neglect? Child endangerment? Imprisonment?
Of course Goren would know someone who specializes in child protection law. Goren probably knows way too much about that system, possibly as a former client.
Patcat
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Post by trisha on Nov 7, 2004 23:03:20 GMT -5
Damn. Not, you Sirenna, I had this really great post and my freak'n computer crashed on me. That is the second time it's happened since Mr. Trisha "networked" our computers.[/rant] Anyway ... I forgot a lot of what I had written, but it's gone and I don't have time to write it all again right now. We haven't really gotten into discussing the titles, but this one definitely deserves some praise Magificat- the song that Mary sings when she learns that she will be a mother to Jesus, and magnificat- the magnification of all Doreen's failures. The terrorist angle sort of turned my stomach, but the reaction was real enough-- I guess that's what did it. Someone says "bomb", and someone else will say "Muslim." It really bothered me to see that officer portrayed as not knowing how offensive it is for a man to touch a married Muslim woman, or that he just didn't care. I hope that the people involved in these types of investigations would be given a little sensitivity training by now. At least Eames seemed to understand. The part about their green cards still being processed after more than 3 months was a gem. The CIS (what's left of the old INS) is backlogged to hell, and they sure don't like to talk about that. I like that Ms. Son and Mr. Balcer tossed that in there. AND, we have another case that G&E did not win- a toast to those who say they get the guy/gal too often. And I'm glad the episode ended with some hope that poor little Adam wouldn't have to grow up with that horrible man. Bravo! [ETA: Patcat, why don't you move your post over here so that we can discuss your thoughts here and they don't just get deleted with the other thread ]
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Post by darmok on Nov 7, 2004 23:33:20 GMT -5
I liked this episode. They definitely are straining the Goren-Carver relationship this season. Goren is getting very emotional while Carver is staying level-headed, and he is disagreeing with Goren a lot. But, Carver isn't getting adversarial. He stood up for them with the lawyer when he was complaining about the squad car. It wasn't until after the lawyer left that Carver said he agreed that there was no reason for the house to be watched. Towards the end, when Goren picked up the book and asked if there was something in there they could charge the husband with, Carver said there wasn't "this morning." He knew Goren would want to charge the guy, but there was nothing within the law that he could do. Being an engineer myself, I thought the portrayal of the engineer was interesting. He was atheist (which, BTW, I am not). I know plenty of engineers that are religious, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was a higher than average # of atheists among engineers & scientists. Just a guess on my part. I did like the part where he's asking about the two-way mirror. That's the first thing I would do in the room (assuming that Goren wasn't there, of course ). One time I was recovering from day surgery and I kept asking the tech about how the oxygen sensor on my finger worked; he wasn't thrilled about my questions (probably because he didn't know the anwers). The mirror scene struck me as realistic. As far as the mother goes, I have a friend who suffered from post-partum depression after having 5 kids in 6 years. She tried to commit suicide right about the time the Texas mom killed her 5 children (about the same ages as my friend's kids). This parallel really freaked out her family, but her husband was very supportive, and she got the help she needed. She was also home-schooling. Interesting. They didn't mention it, but I couldn't help but wonder how much of this case paralleled Goren's childhood. We know his mother had mental problems. Goren's father was probably controlling. That may have been the motive for Goren trying to make sure that the boy didn't stay with his father. Great episode; lots to discuss.
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Post by chief on Nov 8, 2004 7:24:18 GMT -5
Ok, did anyone else think Eames' statement "Anyone can make a bomb" was rather ill conceived when referring to a mother of four children under seven, with a super controlling husband, allegedly suffering post partum depression, who couldn't remember to renew her automobile registration or pick up a chair in the backyard? Oh, who also supposedly knew how to disable a space heater to make it emit carbon monoxide? This whole episode appeared geared toward producing something, anything, that showed the alleged excesses of law enforcement when dealing with the terrorism threat. IMHO worst episode ever.
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Post by darmok on Nov 8, 2004 7:37:20 GMT -5
Chief, I agree that it is a stretch to think she would know how to make a bomb or modify the heater. Good point. I also thought there was an inconsistency with the boy's learning diasbility. If the father was so against it, how did the boy get the help that made the dramatic difference in his writing?
Still liked the episode, though. I like the emotional ones.
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Post by Patcat on Nov 8, 2004 9:39:19 GMT -5
Thanks to the moderators for moving my post!
Re. Adam's writing--I think this might have been a clue that got lost in the editing process. The fact that his writing was so bad at home was a sign of the carbon dioxide poisoning--once he was in the hospital he got better and his writing improved. That, of course, has nothing to do with his learning disability.
As to the mother's making a bomb--well, she's suffering from depression, not stupidity. If she's focused on killing herself and the children, she could figure things out. I'm mechanically inept, but I could make a Molotov cocktail.
I do wonder how Adam's story will play out. Perhaps his father will concede custody since Adam is "damaged"?
I have a friend who has 5 sons, ranging in age from 8 to 2. (There's a set of twins in there). She and her husband home school the kids, largely because they're dissatisfied with the public schools in the area. She gets a lot of help from her husband and both of their families, and the boys participate in Little League and all sorts of activities. Not all homeschoolers are controlling obsessives.
Patcat (hey, I made detective!)
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Post by trisha on Nov 8, 2004 9:44:41 GMT -5
I think Doreen was a pretty intelligent person. She was shown to have a good understanding of natural science and history- Adam didn't learn about horseshoe crabs from his father. I also don't think that either the space heater or the bomb were difficult to make or to understand. If put in the position to have enough drive to do it, any one of average intelligence can have done either. I think that Doreen could certainly have done both, and her motive for doing so was made clear. I'd have blown up the husband instead, but that's just me The terrorism angle, while sad and frustrating, is true to life. If a bomb goes off (or a car crashes though the wall of a shopping center- I'll take that story to the squad), the first thing anyone thinks is terrorism- and, in America, that word goes hand in hand with Muslims (Thank you Osama Bin Laden).
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Post by Techguy on Nov 8, 2004 14:19:20 GMT -5
This episode was very very difficult to watch for a number of reasons. I don't want to keep bringing up my military background and Gulf War experiences, but I almost changed the channel when the Muslim/terrorist angle was brought up right at the outset both before and in the immediate aftermath of the car bombing. Way too much deja vu was going on, but I forced myself to continue watching until the bitter end. Not that the ultimate outcome was any more of a relief, but the flashbacks at the start were almost too much to overcome.
Not having any experience whatsoever with post partum depression, I nevertheless sensed yet another example of Det. Goren having to deal with loneliness and perps who have been deeply emotionally and psychologically wounded. I speculated on another thread that having to deal with such personally compelling cases on a consistent basis might result in some sort of climax by the time Season 4 is concluded. In this respect, "Magnificat" certainly did not disappoint, although when it plays in reruns, I hope it doesn't show up on either Mothers Day or Fathers Day.
This episode is utterly and totally devoid of any humor, black or otherwise. It is bleak and oftentimes depressing. It did bring back memories of Susan Smith and most especially Andrea Yates. So as a public service, maybe "Magnificat" will bring some attention to what post partum depression is and the consequences of not dealing with it. One of the saddest and most tragic echoes of this episode is how the title captures Doreen's despair in aspiring to be the perfect mother like Mary was to Jesus. Her Mary-like solution--her song of desperation--to her situation was to "take the hard road to heaven" with her children.
Equally frustrating is how there really isn't anything Carver could do to hold the husband/father accountable for what happened. Goren's outrage is understandable, but unfortunately, the kind of mental, emotional, and psychological cruelty perpetuated by Daddy Dearest, while being morally reprehensible, is not criminal. Tragically, this kind of domestic "violence" can go on unseen and unnoticed until it is "magnified" beyond repair, and by then it is too late to intervene.
I also couldn't help wondering if Goren's knowledge of how the family court system works is somehow connected with his own childhood experiences. Did his Grandma take over when Mom became ill, and did the court intervene to keep deadbeat dad from gaining custody? Goren is determined to keep the surviving child (the appropriately named "Adam") from falling into the custody of his dad. Goren's attempt to save Adam from falling into his father's "sin" and give him the chance of a new life is Goren's way of salvaging some moral retribution out of the domestic wasteland that Adam's father helped create and perpetuate. My concern is, after he divorces Doreen, he'll be free to remarry and create another family to inhabit his own personal garden of evil.
I don't know about anyone else, but when "Magnificat" concluded, I had to go outside for a while to catch a breath of fresh air. But I didn't sleep any better afterward.
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Post by trisha on Nov 8, 2004 14:57:43 GMT -5
I didn't sleep well either, and though I often have trouble getting and staying asleep, the fact that this episode kept emerging in my dreams each time I fell asleep is proof that at least part of the trouble was the subject matter covered last night.
I do have a problem with Paul not being charged with anything. Wouldn't it be reckless abandonment for him to leave his children with a suicidal mother? He also knew about the postpartum depression, and I don't know how anyone can say they don't know about cases where women have killed their children while suffering ppd. Susan Smith is quite famous for it, Andrea Yates is another. The fact is, an overwhelming number of women who suffer from ppd dwell on thoughts of hurting their children. To leave a child with a mother you know is suffering from ppd, and to further drive her deeper into her depression is morally reprehensible - and I can't imagine that it isn't legally reprehensible as well.
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Post by Techguy on Nov 8, 2004 15:53:44 GMT -5
Trisha, I hoped Paul could be charged with something. But Carver understands it will be a very hard sell to a potential jury, given that it was Mom who planted the bomb. It will also be a hard sell convincing 12 jurors that dad was in any way guilty of neglect or reckless endangerment, since dad was the only breadwinner in a stressful occupation and mom didn't have to go out to work and had a comfortable home in an ideal neighborhood. I know this is stereotyping stay-at-home moms, but Carver knows the emotional impact on a jury, given that Doreen plea bargained and admitted what she had done.
So Carver really can't try Paul on what he might have or should have known or even what he was really thinking when he returned the tampered space heater to the hardware store. Any good lawyer could claim Paul was so emotionally distraught himself, wasn't thinking clearly, and was only trying to protect his wife. So reasonable doubt would surely enter the picture if Carver attempted any sort of criminal prosecution against Paul.
A couple of asides: Sam Robards (Paul) is the son of Lauren Bacall and the late Jason Robards Jr. And did anyone recognize Carrie Preston, the actress who portrayed Doreen? She also appeared in the CI second season episode "Zoonotic" as Megan, one of the vicious doctor's zoonotic disease victims.
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Post by Sirenna on Nov 8, 2004 17:28:44 GMT -5
I understand the feelings in people who found this episode extremely disturbing because Semi and Post invoked the same reactions in me, even to changing my dreams to nightmares later that night. This one had little affect on my psche and my affect is quite unaffected as I write this. (Look I know very little psych stuff to begin with and question the validity of what little I do know, so allow me this overuse of the lingo ) Then again I'm not yet a mother but I am a single girl looking for love which may explain why this one left me interested but untouched and Nelda and Spencer were so unnerving for me. Which brings me to Goren's attidude toward the child in this ep. I can't see a link between Goren's troubled family history and this family, although there may be one revealed in future episodes. Just because there's a lost boy child and an errant father, doesn't mean there's a Goren having flashbacks. He could just be sympathetic. Finding a HR child lawyer to urge the grandmother to become primary caregiver was going above and beyond. But I like to think Goren and Eames are special in that they, unlike most of us, don't need to have been there to feel empathy for victims or even misguided perps for that matter. It's what makes them just. They never make distinctions as to who merits their diligence the most. As for Carver's and Goren interaction, well, Carver's right here. The father committed no chargeable offense. The PPD in the mother was diagnosed well after she committed the crime and although the husband suspected she was capable of harming herself, suspecting, not being able to stop it is not a crime. Remember he did try to help her but his help was so twisted it made his wife's depression worse. He can argue he at least tried to help so it's not negligence on his part. His affect appeared only because Goren's interrogation brought out that his actions led to his children being harmed. He was arrogant, not itself a crime, enough to believe his wife would only hurt herself and leave HIS kids alone. I think Carver felt equally compelled to do right by the kids and tried to find a way to avoid sending them back into their father's custody with the futile law research. Even though Goren was emoting, Carver remained calm, perhaps detached some might argue. But he never took Goren's harshness to heart. Unlike Goren, Carver did leave the case at the office. He probably had equal if not better access to appropriate lawyers for the grandmother but then again would this be a conflict of interest for his department since he was also prosecuting the father? Chief: I can understand that some scenes did not show the police in the most positive light but then again those same scenes did not show them as badly as they could have either. Eames stepped up and showed sensitivity while the muslim family was being questioned. The scene with Deakins and G&E showed that they all acknowledged it was a sensitive issue with nothing but a dead end to show for the anxiety they caused. But it also showed that while they didn't regret taking the action, they still felt uncomfortable for the family. I don't think any of the L&O shows aim to make heroes of the police (that's for NYPD to do), just show human nature at its worst and best. L&O seem to show police procedure as realistically as any show I've seen but you would be more of an expert in detailing, to us, its realism based on your own experience and I hope you will.
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Post by darmok on Nov 8, 2004 20:03:51 GMT -5
Actually, I think the depression was diagnosed well before the crime. They talked with a doctor? who had prescribed anti-depressants. She said she hoped Doreen was still taking them.
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Post by trisha on Nov 8, 2004 20:08:48 GMT -5
Sirenna wrote:
The ppd was diagnosed well before the crimes. Paul refused to give Doreen enough money to continue her therapy, and all but admitted to G&E that he also told her to stop taking her meds. This has to be a crime! He knew she was suffering form ppd and he forced her out of treatment and off her meds. He admitted that he knew that she was going to kill herself and did nothing, "So what," he said. It may not be a crime to stand by and watch someone spiraling into suicide, but it has to be a crime to drive them to it!
What made Paul angry, what caused him to finally show some affect, was that Goren accused him of losing control of Doreen. Paul refused to lose control, and when the parts of his life where he had no control went against his desires, he took it out on Doreen. It made him feel like a big man to emotionally and psychologically beat her into the ground. Knowing that she was going to commit suicide, and pushing her further toward it must have made him feel like a God.
I don't see why Goren would see any similarities between Paul and his own father. Paul is a megalomaniac, Goren's father was almost the complete opposite. He didn't try to control his family, he left them to fend for themselves. Paul would never do that, and he will never stop fighting for Adam. He is the type of person who would rather kidnap the child and live as a fugitive than concede defeat and give up control.
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Post by Sirenna on Nov 8, 2004 20:34:35 GMT -5
The ppd was diagnosed well before the crimes. Paul refused to give Doreen enough money to continue her therapy, and all but admitted to G&E that he also told her to stop taking her meds. Darmok, Trisha: Oops! you're absolutely right! I must have been asleep. As for driving someone towards suicide, I seem to remember an episode where there was a criminal negligence charge laid for just that - the shock jock ep. I'm not willing to lay another writing negligence charge just yet. Remember the cherry blossoms? Still it does raise some questions. I leaning towards saying that even though Paul knew his wife was capable of suicide he can make a case that he tried to help her but just gave her the wrong help. After all it's not criminal (or is it?) if Jehovah Witness parents refuse blood transfusions for their child at the risk of his death.
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