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Post by darmok on Nov 8, 2004 22:26:35 GMT -5
As far as the terrorist angle goes, I thought that it was good because they were wrong about it! People are being looked at more closely if they're Muslim; so that was realistic. But this episode was good because the Muslims didn't have anything to do with the crime. The man was polite; he even decided not to interrupt the woman while she was disciplining her children. Goren and Eames were bothered with the situation when it started to look like the man was innocent. I don't fault the writers for using the angle; I applaud them for twisting it - for making it just a red herring.
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Post by Observer2 on Nov 9, 2004 0:20:56 GMT -5
Techguy, I’m sorry the Muslim/terrorist angle at the beginning was difficult for you. I know how hard it is to stay with something that’s triggering flashbacks. I’m impressed that you watched the whole show.
And Chief, I understand your protective reaction. But the lead cops were portrayed as having reasons to suspect the guy, and as being reasonable in how they dealt with him and his family. I personally know of situations involving Middle Eastern folk where none of those were true of the cops involved.
In any case, I think the point of that part of the episode was only partially to make a comment on police procedures. I think it was largely to have an impact on the viewers, who identify with Goren and Eames – and, in this case, even with Deakins, as we look, with him, at the pictures of the children – and so the viewer gets taken through the experience of how easy it is to misunderstand and suspect people from the Middle East, and then gets shown how easy it is for those suspicions to be wrong.
So I’m glad they included that section. Because that kind of thing *is* still happening... in many cases with far less evidence, and in many cases with much less courtesy on the part of the lead cops on the scene. I applaud the fact that they show such things, and that the lead characters – the ones the viewers are meant to identify with – feel so uncomfortable over it. Criminal Intent does such things rarely – I can’t think offhand of anything else about the treatment of Islamic people, post-9/11, since Goren’s acknowledgement to the store owner in The Pilgrim. As far as I’m concerned, as long as people who come from the Middle East can still be arrested and held for months on end without being able to call family or even a lawyer, or can be sent to other countries to be tortured (because, heaven forbid we should dirty our own hands, but we know someone who will do the dirty work for us), then I don’t think once every other season is too often to remind people of how easy it is to misunderstand and suspect people from the Middle East, and how rarely – percentage-wise – those suspicions are justified.
[If I sound angry, it’s not at you, Techguy, nor at you, Chief, nor at anyone else on this board. But I *am* angry over the injustices that have been done, and the prejudices that have been encouraged, in the name of homeland security.]
As for the custody case, I think the implication was that Goren was going to make sure the grandmother got custody of Adam. There may not be anything on that tape that Carver could take to a grand jury, but it shows a callous disregard for the child’s mother, and a total lack of empathy for the emotional states of others. I expect that lawyer will find a way to get it shown to the judge in the custody case. There’s also the fact that the child was diagnosed with a learning disability, and the father refused to send him to a school that specialized in such issues. And it’s easy to predict (or get the father to describe) how much grief counseling the father would allow Adam to receive, and how much professional treatment he would be given access to, should he become depressed after the deaths of his siblings and the incarceration of his mother... I really don’t think they’ll have much trouble convincing a judge that the father is not fit.
Which is not to deny the fact that in most similar situations, the father would retain custody of the child. Such tragedies happen all too frequently.
This was a grim, painful episode, but very well done. And once again, there was one of those intense little scenes in the observation room, that convey so much about the characters and relationships. Another thing I liked, at the end, when Eames told Carver who the lawyer was, was Carver’s thoughtful look at Goren, and that faint smile.
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Post by chief on Nov 9, 2004 6:49:10 GMT -5
Congratulations to all who have posted on this episode so far. I find this to be a very astute group of viewers/posters, well informed and sympathetic. This is my first and only TV series message board expeience and I am enjoying it immensely. To put my perspective of law enforcement operations in perspective for you, I have been retired for ten years, but still have an interest in how law enforcement as a profesion is portrayed. I hasten to add that I am not blind to their foibles and many times wish things could be done better.
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Post by trisha on Nov 9, 2004 7:33:32 GMT -5
Chief, thanks for your kind words. Our group is all the better for your participation I'm glad you found us and decided to join in. Semi off topic warning-- (For those not interested in the goings on regarding the kangaroo courts set up in G.B. Cuba, though you should be interested if you're an American, and 2x as interested if you are not a US citizen and have any plans to travel here- skip this post if you want, it has nothing to do with the episode- just to Observers comments on why the episode affected her so). www.nytimes.com/2004/11/09/politics/09gitmo.html?thThis article should give you some cheer Observer, for me the cheer was quite literal. The moppets jumped out of their chairs to see what made me so happy. I do have one problem with this article, though, and here it is ... From the article: Just to clarify the facts here, president bush has no such powers or authority to deem anyone an unlawful combatant, nor to have them tried as such. This is a power that the president cannot have without a congressional declaration of war -- and the last time I checked, he still doesn't have one! He has NO extra-judicial powers, and the only president ever to assume them was FDR, and there was a shit load of controversy about what he did, too. The trials at GB Cuba are nothing but kangaroo courts. All verdicts should be over turned, and the prisoners removed from the custody of the military asap.
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Post by Observer2 on Nov 9, 2004 15:47:25 GMT -5
Hey, who does that liberal judge think he is, questioning the President’s authority to set aside the Geneva Conventions? All that stuff about needing a Congressional Declaration of War... that’s a pre-9/11 world view. And questioning the President’s authority, that’s... well, that’s un-Patriotic!
See what happens when you let those silly liberals get in the White House and appoint judges? Tsk, tsk, tsk.
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Post by janetcatbird on Nov 9, 2004 16:00:08 GMT -5
Just watched the tape: the only episode of L&O that has made me choke through sobs.
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Post by pompusone on Nov 9, 2004 19:26:07 GMT -5
My reaction to the ending of this episode was to wonder what Goren was thinking. He wants this kid to possibly end up in the custody of a woman who has already raised one dysfunctional kid?
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Post by trisha on Nov 9, 2004 21:06:14 GMT -5
But, Doreen wasn't dysfunctional because of her mother. She was dysfunctional because of a chemical imbalance due to hormonal changes she went through durring and after pregnancy. I guess it could be argued that her mother raised her to believe she was incapable of making good choices on her own -- but I don't think we have enough evidence for that.
People like Paul often don't show their true colors until their victim is fully wrapped, then they take the mask off. I doubt Paul was pushing Doreen around like that when they were dating, or even the first year(s) of their marriage. It probably wasn't until she had a few babies hanging off of her that he really stepped into her, because where was she going to go, and how? He had the money, and he would fight her tooth and nail to keep the kids. Plus, the ppd put Doreen in a helpless state of mind, and made her twice as easy to manipulate.
I think the mother was covering for Paul. She had to have seen the cruel manipulation, Paul is too arrogant to hide it. But she saw what she wanted to see. She wanted Doreen to have a nice life, and Paul could afford to give her one. So, she turned a blind eye to Paul's controlling nature, she even praised it, saying that Doreen needed structure. Maybe she did.
Believe it or not, there are people who seek out people like Paul. I don't know if Doreen would have minded having her every step choreographed for her if it were not for the ppd. She may have come to terms with not being perfect, accepted that her children would not be perfect, and accepted that Paul would always strive for better. She may have been like a woman I know, and stayed with Paul for as long as she could. Living with a person that controlling becomes a crutch after a while. They'd rather have that crutch than walk on their own perfectly capable feet.
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Post by janetcatbird on Nov 9, 2004 23:23:52 GMT -5
About the grandmother as guardian, who else did Adam have? That was the one question I kept screaming at the TV throughout the episode, "Who's got Adam?" to leave that poor child alone in the hospital, and for the father to be so preoccupied with torturing his wife to just leave him without a thought...bless his heart. I was surprised that neither Eames nor Goren reached out to pat his arm, or smooth his hair, or something. Maybe as detectives they were afraid of compromising their professional duty. That long silence where neither of them spoke as they left the hospital room...what could you possibly say after that? Wonderful job by D'Onofrio and Erbe. Now, the more eagle-eyed of us need to watch future episodes to see if the picture is indeed posted on a bulletin board or something. That poor boy, you just want to hold him and tell him it'll be alright.
The one thing that Grandma said about Doreen was that she had been--what was it, a "lost kid" growing up? That could mean any number of things. So for Grandma to be so adoring of hubby and the boys probably didn't help Doreen any in terms of talking to someone, and just further reinforced the ideas that it was all her fault. Poor woman.
Having just read "The Awakening" for a class, I was sturck by the parallells. Except Doreen didn't want independance so much as removal, but her detachment and ultimately the concern about the children that decided her action. Also like Nora in "A Doll's House", although I think we can safely say Nora wound up in the best circumstances.
I've thought for years that the most frightning poem/song I've heard is "Under My Thumb" by the Rolling Stones. I'll hold off on posting lyrics unless people want to see them on this thread. God, that song scares me to death, and that's all I could think of. The one scene that had me gasping for breath was when Paul forced her to go into the baby's room, the sick bastard.
About the Mother Mary, thanks for qualifying the specifics on "Magnificat". I myself am not Catholic but I've grown up with all the nativity scenes at Christmas. It's well and sweet and charming, but as I get older I find myself thinking more and more often of "THe Best Christmas Pageant Ever"; where instead of pure and clean and holy looking Mary's veil is crooked, she's dirty and unkempt. "For me Mary is always going to look like Imogene, sort of nervous and bewildered but ready to clobber anyone who lays a hand on her baby." That was what kept running through my head at the Vatican museums, where you see room after room of the gold embroidered tapestires and glorious depictions of the Nativity. Beyond the Herdmans I keep thinking about representations of Mary. Where are the pictures of pregnant Mary kneeling over a bucket, pale and shaky from morning sickness? Where are the views of the dirty looks she got at the well from the other village girls cause she got knocked up? Scenes of tired Mary trying to quiet a screaming baby who just won't go down?
I've babysat before, and even if it's about four hours with two or three little ones it can be very overwhelming. You've got to take care of the baby and hope the older kids don't get jealous, take phone messages, get them to bed. Obviously as a temporary sitter I can hardly relate to those who LIVE it. I have great admiration for the parents on this board who do this all the time, and the stay-at-home Moms...how do they do it?
Goren and Eames were very emotionally charged, but notice they didn't bring up what happened in their past. GOren didn't talk about a sick mother, Eames may have known pregnancy symptoms but she didn't say "when I was pregnant with my nephew..." How much of her knowledge of post-partun depression came from research/doctors (i.e. "here's what to expect") and how much she actually experienced is, of course a matter of conjecture. While the intensity and constant presence of GOren's and Eames emotional affects are unusually strong for CI, I did not find them soapy or unrealistic. Kudos to the writers. And to show aspects of Deakins' personality, great, although it'd have been nice if he hadn't just petered out.
Carver, hmm...my feeling was that his preternatural calm was the effort of ADA Carver to keep his feelings in check, maybe he was afraid of what would happen if he got carried away? His unusually polite and reserved response to Goren further confirms that, to my mind. (While "this morning" could be interpreted as sarcasm, Vance's tone of voice should knock out that view.) I suppose we're so used to Jack McCoy that we don't know how to respond when the lawyer exhibits some self-control. Goren's emotional response seemed much more appropriate here than that BAM out of the blue in "Want". however, I would have expected Carver to show something, or, at least, offer to help the Grandmother when she was. introduced to the custody worker.
Just so you know, I may have strong feelings of empathy for the characters, but I'm not one to cry or get worked up visibly. I keep these things contained, especially cause I get embarassed at the thought of crying at a movie or such. So for this episode to hit me like it did, and for me to physically respond...that's saying something.#nosmileys#nosmileys
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Post by Observer2 on Nov 9, 2004 23:41:52 GMT -5
But, Doreen wasn't dysfunctional because of her mother. She was dysfunctional because of a chemical imbalance due to hormonal changes she went through durring and after pregnancy. Actually, I think there are indications that Doreen had problems long before the ppd, for instance, her mother’s comment that “she was a lost kid.” And I don’t think Doreen’s mother is portrayed as an outstanding mother. But she doesn’t seem to be a terrible one, either. I think it’s more than clear that Adam has a hell of a lot better chance to grow up into a fairly functional adult with her than he would have with his father. For one thing, with her he’ll get the counseling he needs. That can go a long way towards helping to compensate for whatever weaknesses his grandmother might have in her ability to help a kid learn how to cope with life in the outside world. But on another subject, Trisha, I’ve gone back and checked all your posts about this ep, and I still haven’t found the expected celebration, satisfaction, or even gloating (you have a great future ahead of you as a lobbyist in Washington, you know...) I know this episode was good enough to distract you a bit, even from something so important; but you know that one of the worst things you can do in a relationship is to harp and harp on something when the person does it a way you don’t like, but then ignore it when they do it the way you *do* like... You wouldn’t want to damage your relationship, would you? (...and besides, damned if you weren’t right... he looks even better *without* the stubble... )
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Post by chief on Nov 10, 2004 4:16:19 GMT -5
Yes, Goren looks much better without the stubble, and much more professional. That said, again I must compliment all of the force for their posts on this episode. I have really enjoyed them, and learned a lot.
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Post by trisha on Nov 10, 2004 10:10:22 GMT -5
Observer, you're right, I didn't make any comment about the stubble, but I didn't do so for two reasons: 1) I don't know how long ago this episode was filmed, so it may have nothing to do with our stubble discussion. 2) I'm still pouting about his longish hair. Granted, it's shorter than the OW hair, but I'd like to see that season 2 & 3 hair again. But I understand that others love to see his curls, and recognize that longer hair hides thinning. Oops, did I write that? Yes, I did. Now prove it isn't true, Mr. D'Onofrio! I know this reemergence of this conversation is going to drive a few of our ranks batty, so I'm letting it go now I'm not ready to concede on the Grandmother yet, though. I still think that she was covering for Paul -- not to protect him, but to save herself from the truth that Doreen needed help, help she could have provided, but she turned a blind eye and hoped for the best. Doreen probably told her that she was happy, and she wanted to believe it, so she went home hopefully. The guilt for such a thing would be crushing, but she will have to come to terms with it during her fight for Adam.
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Post by Sirenna on Nov 10, 2004 17:10:45 GMT -5
I also thought Carver showed a lot of calm and this episode confirmed for me that there is great professional respect on Carver's part for Goren. Goren's shoving the black law book at Carver and his mini freak outs at Carver in the past couple of eps would hit anyone hard. Goren is critising Carver's ability to do his job and too much of that and Carver's reputation would be on the line. The fact that Carver was so calm and never retorted or otherwise took it personally shows me that he understands and sympathised with what fuelled Goren's emotion - concern for the surviving child's welfare. Carver had the same concern, irregardless of Goren's prompting in the scene because he had anticipated the father getting custody, thought what a crappy deal that would be the son and taken it upon himself to find recourse in the law. All this was before he had that meeting with G & E. All this assumes that the reason Goren and not he hooked the grandmother up was because of a conflict of interest on Carver's part: prosecution aiding the defence, perhaps?
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Post by Observer2 on Nov 10, 2004 17:17:55 GMT -5
Trisha, As for when Magnificat was filmed, the exterior shots look to me like late summer/early fall, and when Goren looked out the window at the overturned chair, the shot we saw of it had brown leaves blowing along the ground (though that could have been filmed later). Also, if I’ve tracked Eames’ hair length correctly, that would place it as being filmed after the hiatus. The new shot in the credits of the four of them walking towards the camera also looks as though it was shot after hiatus. Eames’ hair is long, and Goren doesn’t seem to have any stubble. I’m sorry you’re so bothered by Goren’s slightly longer hair that it keeps you from enjoying the shift away from stubble – which appears to be long-term, since it’s reflected in the previews for next week, as well. Also, in the credits, both of the new pictures of Goren, and even the one of both detectives with Deakins, all show Goren without stubble. I have to say, I hope you’re not nearly as effective in your lobbying against the longer hair. I can see not keeping it at its longest – though I think it’s an interesting look, and I’m glad we’ve got one of those in the credits. But I never did like the close-cropped military-style look for him nearly as well as the more reasonable, medium length, civilian hairstyle. And I’m sorry if the digression is irritating to some – you can go off on me. Trisha did her best to shut me up, so don’t blame her.
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Post by Observer2 on Nov 10, 2004 17:21:02 GMT -5
Janetcatbird,
I agree with much of what you said, and I can understand this episode hitting you hard – it’s a powerful episode, tragic on a number of levels, and portrayed well enough to really hit home.
You said, about Adam in the hospital, ”I was surprised that neither Eames nor Goren reached out to pat his arm, or smooth his hair, or something. Maybe as detectives they were afraid of compromising their professional duty.”
I don’t think that would have held them back for a moment. I think, rather, they were being respectful of the young boy’s need to maintain his composure. Both of them were deeply affected emotionally, but they didn’t intrude on him any more than they had to. To have offered him a gesture of comfort or affection could have felt intrusive, because they were strangers, or could have caused him to break down emotionally. Since they weren’t going to stay around to support him through his emotional process, that would have been a cruel thing to do. Instead, they were gentle with him, and then offered him the sense of achievement and value that came from thinking these adults wanted to hang up his picture.
“...And to show aspects of Deakins' personality, great, although it'd have been nice if he hadn't just petered out.”
I’m not sure what you mean by him petering out. If you’re talking about near the beginning, when he’s talking to the guy’s lawyer and finds out the extension wasn’t denied, it’s still being processed, and then Eames confirms that the men were at the school that morning... well, I didn’t think he petered out there. What he did at that point was tell his detectives, “We had to take this all the way,” and then he went to stand beside the squad car, as the uniforms were getting the guy out of it.
It was clear to me that, as the one who had made the decision to step into these guys, he was taking on the responsibility of offering their apologies and regrets, rather than leaving that up to Goren and Eames. He reminded me a bit of Goren, after Goren got the heartfelt confession out of the guy in Want... standing there, braced to deal with the consequences of his decision.
We like seeing Deakins involved in the cases, acting like a Captain. To me, this was a rare opportunity to see the flip side of that. There are a lot of reasons why I like the character, and there’s something in his demeanor that makes me want to respect him. But there are only a few opportunities for scenes, such as this one, or the occasional scene where he defends his detectives, or the scene in Yesterday where he got it that he had been wrong about the boyfriend, where he gets a chance to step up and show that he really deserves that respect.
“Carver, hmm...my feeling was that his preternatural calm was the effort of ADA Carver to keep his feelings in check, maybe he was afraid of what would happen if he got carried away? His unusually polite and reserved response to Goren further confirms that, to my mind... ...however, I would have expected Carver to show something,”
I saw this scene very differently. I agree with Sirenna’s comment at the beginning of this thread, that “this one showed how much Carver really likes Goren.”
Carver wasn’t all that calm throughout the whole episode. When the detectives first started talking about Doreen planting the bomb, Carver reacted intensely, raising his voice, almost sounding angry at them for suggesting that a mother would do such a thing. He didn’t go off on them completely, but he was having a hard time with the concept.
By the final interrogation, though, I had the feeling that Carver was right there with the detectives. I didn’t get the sense that he was holding in a negative reaction to Goren’s outburst, rather that he was just riding it out, knowing Goren well enough to understand it. His response didn’t seem ‘polite’ to me. When Carver is angry and being polite, you know it. His response seemed to me to be understanding, and almost gentle. And he let Goren know that he, too, had wanted to find a way to get Paul.
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