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Post by Sirenna on Feb 6, 2007 8:32:57 GMT -5
I thought it was so touching how Goren appolgized to Jo for not seeing how it was affecting her life as a child, guess he was so tied up in learning from his mentor, he didn't see the damage being done to the young girl. I've always got the impression Goren was a tiny bit of loser as he grew into his detectiveness; arrogant and selfish and intellectually driven, maybe even a bit pedantic. I think he would view anyone struggling, like Jo, as weakness on their part, an irritant or an obstacle as he ploughed on with his own path. I think there were shades of the Goren we generally see today in phrases like, "my brother was such a straight arrow. I would always try to get him to loosen up," and the odd friends that turn up over the life of the series to help him with a case, all of whom seem like successful, well-rounded people. Somewhere connecting all three aspects of him; family, friends, work he learned the true meaning of compassion and the the truth of the case was in the struggles of those around him. I'm waiting to see the scene that explains his profiling epiphany.
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Post by DonnaJo on Feb 6, 2007 9:06:01 GMT -5
It might not make sense, but my guess is that Goren was as impressed with Jo as he was with Declan during his time with them during his army profiling days. Remember how proudly he tells Ross that Jo was a better profiller than he, Goren, was, at the age of 10 ? Also, I doubt he witnessed her audio horror make-out sessions or knew of the torture -themed games she played with Daddy at dinner. Yes, he should have realized that a child of that age must be affected psychologically from exposure to graphic violence. Maybe he assumed she could handle it, like he handled his own disturbed childhood. Knowing Bobby, he is guilting over his own blindness to Jo.
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Post by Sirenna on Feb 6, 2007 9:12:30 GMT -5
Yes now you mention it, he would feel guilty for not seeing her pain. She is the poster child for what sexualised graphic violence does to a child.
Regarding something said further up thread, I don't find Goren loves suspects into confessing at all. I find that idea to be more CSI than CI. I think he makes it so they think he does and that's why they confess. The only one he truly wanted to save seems to beJohn in "Want" not Nicole and not Nelda nor any of the others.
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untitled
Detective
Stuff the Fluff! Save Goren & Eames!
Posts: 274
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Post by untitled on Feb 19, 2007 0:19:27 GMT -5
Does anyone know where I can find the song played during the Museum of Sex scene? I also feel that the writers of the show want to please all of the fans. There will be no romantic relationship between Goren and Eames. Warren Leight said that on the live blog the other night. However, I do feel the way this script was written, It was written in a way, to give those fans who enjoy the idea of Goren and Eames as a couple. - I love that. Trying to reach a different part of their fanbase but not leting the series go astray with romantic relationships, Like CSI has done. I've noticed SVU has done that before, a particular episode "Ghost" in which Alex Cabot comes back to testify and Olivia reveals that she's spending the night with her. Is it possible that Jo didn't kill Eames out of respect for Goren? Yea, I know she's a murderer but, she had a bit of a connection with Goren. They both could have gone "either way". She knew what a devastating effect if would have had on him, had she killed her. Can a serial killer still have empathy? Just my 2 cents. - Empathy I say yes it's possible. But for her to not kill Eames, I say No. Why bother to take this Eames in the first place and end up not killing her? Plus, The look on her face as she tells Goren she had decided to take Eames and frame her father. When Eames didn't scream, the requisite connection Jo needed to maintain her confidence level and sustain the spectre of Sebastian was absent. Goren noted the killer murdered the first victim in her apartment, whereas the second body was brought to a public place, indicating the killer was gaining confidence and boldness with each successsive murder. By not screaming, Eames behaved contrary to what Jo needed to follow through with her plan to kill her. - I like that theory. Someone also mentioned Eames hair... What can I say? It’s lovely... but does strike me as unrealistic. If I recall correctly, it’s gotten more unrealistic each season. Goren’s hair, on the other hand, is perfect. Much better than those way-too-short, military-style haircuts he’s been subjected to in the past; yet not so long as to look unkempt. Not that I notice his looks, of course... my interest is purely intellectual. - unrealstic? LOL. Not so much I dont think. You know who has unrealistic hair? Catherine from CSI See, here's where I disagree about Ross. I don't believe, for a moment, that he and Goren were in cahoots with one another re: breaking Jo. First and foremost, because the way it played to me was that Goren was piecing it together as Jo talked. It was very in-real-time to me, and I felt like I could see that unfolding on Goren's face. - I think once he took a look at the crime scene, he realized that it was Jo. But didnt realize why she did it until he talked to her. But I do agree that Ross & Goren were not on the same page, and I think that will happen alot through out this season and probably alot in the future. They seem to clash alot with their very different Alpha male personalities. Trisha, your point about her needing to be caught and it being part of the plan--very plausible to me. And to get caught by your father's protege, after your father claimed that protege's skills were slipping--that might have been heaven to Jo. - what an interesting point you make. That's alright. I appologise for my own confusion. I would've liked there to have been a reason for her hiding her voice. Maybe I shall just choose to believe it was because she didn't want to be herself and if she spoke it would be her voice and that might've changed her 'perspective' within herself and change the way she felt about what she was doing. - It could have also changed her victim's perspective as well, especially Eames and her room mate. Even if she was going to kill them she could maintain that illusion as long as she could. Love and loss of love is the powerful emotion at the heart of relationship, whether it be the break-up of the lovers Heidi and Enrique, the separation of the colleagues Goren and Eames, or the estrangement of father and daughter, Declan and Jo. (“It can be scary, when someone goes away, specially someone you love so much” Goren tells Enrique). Love is blind and like all powerful emotions it prevents perception and creates blind spots that can cause confusion, bad judgement, irrational and unnatural behaviour. Its loss will enrage Enrique to throw flowers at the paintings (Oh, how cathartic, I’ve wanted to do that for a long time!), send Goren into paroxysms of confusion and disorientation, and derange Jo into committing the ultimate act of frenzied sadism. The unreciprocal love obsession of Declan for his serial killer, Sebastiane, has caused him to lose touch with Reality and the women in his life. This loss of love in a relationship and the subsequent descent from security to mad desperation is also the subject matter of the film Gabrielle, seen here showing at the IFC Centre in Manhattan. Balance can only be restored when Eames returns. Only then can Goren orientate to combine the unfettered insight of his open mind (“that a woman can reach the same heights and depths as a man/too much and not enough; no sense of Declan here”) with his external eye for hard evidence (inspection of the crime scene/hairs on tape), to make the leap that eludes Ross whose mind is confined by the rote, roster and repetition of departmental hierarchies. Goren’s inspiration can look round corners. But above all it is his compassion for another human being that outwits, uncovers and releases their Evil to confess. This same love is in the silent rapport with Eames, a rapport that replaces the usual LOCI ending so that no words are necessary. So Love can both disable and enable, as the same mentor can spawn a “crusading profiler” and a serial killer, fathering opposites. That’s the paradox, the irony of LOCI. - YES! I've seen this episode about 6 times and I just noticed that that line. “It can be scary, when someone goes away, specially someone you love so much” Sort of a foreshaddowing of what was to come. Also, does it seem strange to anyone else that Eames is examining the body and Bobby is interviewing the mother of the first victim? I know Eames has been taking more of a "Goren like" approach at crime scenes (as in "Vacancy" with the smelling, etc...) but that seems very strange to me. (It is by all means not unwelcome, but it is some thing else that seems new to me.) - She sniffed a body? I missed that episode. But then I've only been a fan since about Aug 06 and haven't seen every episode yet. Is this the beginning of a mental collapse for Goren, further driven by the whole Declan/Jo/Eames events? Or is it a subtle change that five years of partnership has brought to Goren & Eames? -After years of working so close together I think it's a very good possiblity that some of the other would rub off on each other. Eames appears to know all about Gage and Goren. Late night talk over coffee? - LOL. The same way she knew about Goren's Lawyer friend in...(name of the epi eludes me,it's the one where this guy kills his wife and his little son sees it ) Well, finally seen this episode after reading all about it, and it was worth waiting for, I think. I enjoyed it, even though there were several changes of direction signalled for the dynamics between the different characters, new and established. My first overwhelming impression was that Major Case had suddenly become more major. The squad room seemed more polished, more well lit, more evidence of money and resources. Out in the field there were many more people around, and they were much more obtrusive. Many times in the past it looked like Goren and Eames worked in relative isolation, yet here there was much more of a feeling of a large team at work. The scene were Goren and Eames had to yell to be heard over the sound of the helicopter seemed to hammer home the size of the operation, as well as making the discovery seem more dramatic and theatrical. (More than a few of the scenes like this in this episode reminded me production values used in CSI). Also it seemed more like a different operation because Ross was such a presence and so determined to be in charge. It will make quite a change as Goren always seemed to have such a free reign. - I totally agree with that assesment. I like the new changes they done to CI. As to the reference to the new similarities to CSI, I say yes definetly - especally with the music it's much less generic than it ever was. One of the things that I loved about CSI was the music. There seemed to be a definite move to establish Eames as a more powerful person in the partnership. In the previous five seasons, there was nothing really to establish that she was the senior partner. In this episode she definitely had a stronger edge, though it was strange to see it so blatantly. Bobby correspondingly seemed less powerful, and seemed to need more approval before acting. Not sure if I'm going to like that aspect. I love that they've amped up Eames, part of the reason why I originally disliked CI in the first place was because I felt that Eames wasn't needed. and my biggest porblem with this episode was the sence were eames was kiddnapped it was compeltly unlikeeames to allow herself to taken quiet so easily( i mean that was very unusal). - I disagree. She didnt realize anything was wrong until she noticed that her pet bird was missing and by then it was too late - she was knocked unconcious before she could even act. But I think it would have been interesting to see Eames struggle with Jo.
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Post by member727 on Feb 19, 2007 3:02:50 GMT -5
You know who has unrealistic hair? Catherine from CSI What about that woman from CSI:New York? Personally, I think a struggle would have revealed too much of the attacker before Goren's dramatic revelation. On the other hand, I'm interested in how Jo managed to get into Eames' house in the first place. You'd think a cop would have some kind of burglar alarm
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Post by Patcat on Feb 19, 2007 9:44:43 GMT -5
Jo is not the average criminal--she's Declan's daughter for one thing, and she's apparently been around cops all of her life. She also spent time training for the FBI, so I suspect she knows how to get past most alarm systems.
Patcat
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Post by DonnaJo on Feb 19, 2007 10:06:07 GMT -5
Member 727, I beg to differ with you. ;D
You state, and I quote:
In spite of their initial wariness of each other, I definitely believe that Ross & Goren had planned the final aria together, and were on the same page about that. That whole scene when Ross goes in to interview Declan alone, Goren stays behind the glass with Jo & sheepishly makes the comment about Jo's dad, "He's so intimidating."
He is obviously playing her, with Ross' help. Ross knows that Goren is behind the glass with Jo and what he is trying to accomplish. I agree with you that her motives are unclear to them until her confession. But my guess is that this plan was discussed off screen, after the scene in the torture room, after Ross says that Jo is inured to the horrors of what her father has done.
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Post by member727 on Feb 19, 2007 18:34:44 GMT -5
Not me. It was untitled who said that, in the post above mine Patcat, I didn't think of Jo's past among cops and FBI
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Post by DonnaJo on Feb 19, 2007 19:18:56 GMT -5
Not me. It was untitled who said that, in the post above mine Sorry, member 727 There were so many quotes in that post, I got things mixed up!
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untitled
Detective
Stuff the Fluff! Save Goren & Eames!
Posts: 274
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Post by untitled on Feb 21, 2007 21:23:51 GMT -5
You know who has unrealistic hair? Catherine from CSI What about that woman from CSI:New York? - I dont know about her, I've never seen CSI: NY. But I wouldnt be surprised. Personally, I think a struggle would have revealed too much of the attacker before Goren's dramatic revelation. - Possibly. But I still think it would have been interesting to see them struggle. Sorry, member 727 There were so many quotes in that post, I got things mixed up! - Sorry, It's been a while since I've been here. And I'm kind of a quote whore on the forums.
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Post by ragincajun on Feb 22, 2007 10:41:43 GMT -5
They could have shown the fight, as a back thought as Joe was telling Goren how she did it in the end. Just a thought. Like how Without a Trace does their thing.
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untitled
Detective
Stuff the Fluff! Save Goren & Eames!
Posts: 274
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Post by untitled on Feb 22, 2007 22:23:38 GMT -5
They could have shown the fight, as a back thought as Joe was telling Goren how she did it in the end. Just a thought. Like how Without a Trace does their thing. - a flashback. It might be interesting. It seems to me to be a bruckheimer thing. When I used to watch CSI they did it all the time on that.
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Post by DonnaJo on Aug 16, 2007 20:55:08 GMT -5
Something occurred to me about this episode. It is the only one where Goren has to interact with Ross without Eames as a buffer, especially during the time that she's held captive by "Sebastion."
If you pay attention, you can see that Ross refers to Eames as "Your Partner" to Goren in several instances. Once, right before the elevator scene when he says ,"Where's your partner? Tell her to get in here." Also in the murder room, When Ross says to Goren, "You have your partner back. Now it's time to let your mentor go."
I just thought that perhaps we were being unfair for getting on Ross' case about him referring to Bobby as "your partner" to Eames several times in Endgame. It looks like he tend to do that if the other partner isn't around. Maybe it wasn't a personal dig to Bobby after all.
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Post by Techguy on Aug 16, 2007 21:16:58 GMT -5
Good catch DonnaJo, I'll have to pay attention myself when I next watch "Blind Spot" again. Maybe Ross is a more impersonal Captain when referring to his detectives, and didn't single Goren out after all.
I also want to note how Ross refers to the detectives in the Logan/Wheeler episodes when only one is present and he has something to say about the partner.
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Post by musicwench on Aug 17, 2007 18:20:32 GMT -5
Something occurred to me about this episode. It is the only one where Goren has to interact with Ross without Eames as a buffer, especially during the time that she's held captive by "Sebastion." If you pay attention, you can see that Ross refers to Eames as "Your Partner" to Goren in several instances. Once, right before the elevator scene when he says ,"Where's your partner? Tell her to get in here." Also in the murder room, When Ross says to Goren, "You have your partner back. Now it's time to let your mentor go." I just thought that perhaps we were being unfair for getting on Ross' case about him referring to Bobby as "your partner" to Eames several times in Endgame. It looks like he tend to do that if the other partner isn't around. Maybe it wasn't a personal dig to Bobby after all. Being a Ross cheerleader, I pointed this out at another board - I have no idea where or when. I really think it's just the way Ross is and he refers to everyone as "your partner."
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