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Post by Techguy on Sept 21, 2006 18:46:42 GMT -5
Hopefully to clear the air, I'm not offended and certainly didn't intend to offend Gorensmine. I would think that when one joins an Internet board, you expect to encounter differences of opinion. Just because I don't care about a show someone else likes, that does not translate into a personal attack. We don't all like the same things, TV shows included, and should feel comfortable saying so. That's all I have to say about it.
As to why Eames wasn't killed, I agree that Jo needed to terrorize and torture her victims before killing them. She was attempting to resurrect the MO of Sebastian, the serial killer that so obsessed her father. The terror and torture element had to be there in order for her father to believe Sebastian had come out of hiding. When Eames didn't scream, the requisite connection Jo needed to maintain her confidence level and sustain the spectre of Sebastian was absent.
Goren noted the killer murdered the first victim in her apartment, whereas the second body was brought to a public place, indicating the killer was gaining confidence and boldness with each successsive murder. By not screaming, Eames behaved contrary to what Jo needed to follow through with her plan to kill her.
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lomesir22
Rookie
Edward Cullen or Bobby Goren? Now THAT is hard.
Posts: 11
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Post by lomesir22 on Sept 21, 2006 21:03:05 GMT -5
I loved this episode, and that's it.
I was literally on the edge of my seat and begging NBC to cut out the ads and put the show back on. I was so caught up in the story that I wasn't even considering who was the serial killer, so I figured it out only when Goren mentioned "female serial killers". Then it clicked.
This episode had it all- the "softer" side of Goren, Eames really kicking a*s, and a little bit more about Goren's past (Declan was weird). I only hope that the other Goren/Eames eps are this good, because they're the only ones I watch.
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Post by det1stgrade on Sept 21, 2006 21:19:59 GMT -5
As for Goren attire...from what I could see, he was wearing a pair of plain black Levis and a gray sport jacket. It didn't look so bad...just casual.
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Post by sarahlee on Sept 21, 2006 21:40:57 GMT -5
Nothing looks bad on that man.
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Post by goreamesfan on Sept 21, 2006 22:31:48 GMT -5
WOW!!! Work has been kicking my butt, so I haven't been able to see everyone's comments till now. It's great to be back and to read all your great observations!
I LOVED the episode. So there have been changes -- maybe they'll keep the show fresh. I enjoyed last season, but there were a few episodes that left me a little flat. This one was GREAT and had me on the edge of my seat the entire time. I was so caught up in the story that I didn't even realize Jo was the killer until the last 15 minutes. DUH. Everyone knows that the "name" guest star is always the killer (well, almost always).
OK, so I wasn't crazy about the killer cam and slo -mo as Eames gets hit on the head. And I thought the MacGuyver moment was unnecessary (sorry). But I loved literally everything else. The captain? I liked him. I think his attitude is reasonable. We all know that Goren is considered an "acquired taste" in the department and that he's not everyone's cup of tea. I'm sure the captain has heard plenty to make him nervous. He'll come around.
If I went on about everything I loved about this episode, I'd be writing all night, but I do think VDO and Erbe were outstanding. I LOVED Goren's arm shooting out of the elevator (and not for the reason all the ladies seemed to like it) -- really showed passion! The scene between Goren and Jo at the end -- amazingly well written and acted, where the confession just sort of gradually materializes as an understanding between the two. And Goren's face said it ALL -- pity vying with anger over what she almost did to Eames. VDO is the best actor on TV right now. And the last scene of Goren and Eames in the hospital -- pitch perfect. We don't need more. Longtime fans of the show know all they need to about what's going on in that room.
Two small points: Patcat, I don't think Goren felt like a brother to Jo -- I think he says as much when he admits he didn't pay enough attention to her. And I agree with 99.9% of your brilliant observations, so it pains me to disagree with you even on this admittedly minor point.
Point 2: I have tried without success to hook one of my friends on LOCI. But she watched both CI and SVU Tuesday and said LOCI was a much better ep. Take that, you water cooler fans! Just kidding -- I like SVU too (but not like I love CI).
I can only hope that this first episode is a sign of things to come. If so, we're all in for a great ride! Oh, and I already LOVE Wheeler. I've seen the actress in several movies and like her a lot -- another good sign! LOCI is BACK!
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Post by darmok on Sept 21, 2006 22:43:13 GMT -5
Another possible reason Jo didn't kill Eames was hinted at by Goren when he was interrogating Declan. They were trying to figure out the timeline. After the body was dumped, Declan said that something interrupted the perp. That's when Goren said it was his phone call to Declan. He thought that meant it was Declan. But Jo was trying to frame her father. After Goren called Declan, he was with Goren or in custody the rest of the time. She couldn't kill Eames then if she wanted to frame her father; the time of death would prove it wasn't him.
Just a thought.
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Post by raeangel319 on Sept 21, 2006 23:08:52 GMT -5
Another possible reason Jo didn't kill Eames was hinted at by Goren when he was interrogating Declan. They were trying to figure out the timeline. After the body was dumped, Declan said that something interrupted the perp. That's when Goren said it was his phone call to Declan. He thought that meant it was Declan. But Jo was trying to frame her father. After Goren called Declan, he was with Goren or in custody the rest of the time. She couldn't kill Eames then if she wanted to frame her father; the time of death would prove it wasn't him. Just a thought. ooh! very true, hadn't thought of it that way. my favorite quote was also the "as a rule we like to talk about guns." line from goren. i would have at least liked to see goren take her hand or touch her arm or something when eames was upset at the hospital(after telling goren what had happened), but at the same time, i kinda like that they DIDN'T show so much emotion and vulnerability...or at least that goren didn't. important in order to keep the show suds-free...but it makes for great fanfiction for shippers i think the captain was written to not be real well liked at this point. everyone needs a little time to get used to goren...and sounds like maybe the whole NYPD knows his reputation. it'd be human nature to want to put your foot down if you "know" what you're dealing with. he'll come around. everyone else does. of course...we already know goren and love him, so we are a little protective of him. we just want ross to come around..like now. i guess i knew eames was senior partner. doesn't goren tell a suspect(?) once that "eames has seniority"?? i thought i'd read it somewhere before too....she made detective 1st grade before goren did. i just can't remember where. LOVED that some of the show emphasis was on eames. she needs to be written as more than just "goren's echo"...running along behind him. in this episode, she's a little more assertive ("keep it short?"...goren's meeting w/ declan)...and that little look she gave goren when he said "they're all too young to be sebastian". she just kinda looks at him for a few seconds..."if it's him." like she's not just buying into goren's (declan's) theory...(not that she always does in the past...but we don't see them disagree all that often). then the way she kinda looks at him before she leaves...almost like she's thinking that maybe she really does need to keep an eye on him...wondering if declan's clouding his reasoning ok..loved the episode..but i'll stop now as it's late and my brain's gonna turn to mush and i'll just be talking in circles then ...lol
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Post by Observer2 on Sept 21, 2006 23:51:29 GMT -5
Gorensmine, There’s no reason not to post. Techguy wasn’t attacking you, he was just disagreeing with you. Most of us have disagreed with someone here, from time to time; and most of us have had someone disagree with us. If none of us dared to post because of that, there wouldn’t be any discussions for you to read! LOCIfan, You’re right, you did say the last scene... the way you talked about it threw me off – obviously I thought you were talking about the second-to-last scene. It sounds like we pretty much agree on that one. The last one, though, I like just the way it was. It felt very satisfying to me, to see them together after all they’d both been through. As someone else mentioned, I liked that the final scene was evocative, rather than specific. I think it actually allowed the scene to convey much more than it would have with specific lines of dialog. Other thoughts: For those who don’t like the new Captain’s attitude towards Goren, I think you may not have registered some of the implications of the second-to-last scene, where Goren is getting a confession out of Jo while Ross talks with Declan... actually playing him, to give Goren something to work with. Clearly, sometime between the crime scene and when Ross walked into the interrogation room, Goren had convinced him to play along. If you listen, you can hear Ross asking Declan to help him come up with a profile. That’s what gets Declan started on his ego-centric monologue. At the end of that scene, Ross does not seem surprised at all by the fact that Jo has confessed. Ross is not easy for me to read, but as Jo is taken away he turns back to look at Goren, and he seems aware of Goren’s distress. That, along with his earlier responsiveness to Goren, and his reactions to the place where Eames was held, suggest to me that Ross may well have the kind of concern for his detectives that I think a good CO should have. Someone also mentioned Eames hair... What can I say? It’s lovely... but does strike me as unrealistic. If I recall correctly, it’s gotten more unrealistic each season. Goren’s hair, on the other hand, is perfect. Much better than those way-too-short, military-style haircuts he’s been subjected to in the past; yet not so long as to look unkempt. Not that I notice his looks, of course... my interest is purely intellectual.
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loserbaby12
Silver Shield Investigator
i'm the baby, gotta love me!
Posts: 116
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Post by loserbaby12 on Sept 21, 2006 23:53:11 GMT -5
Okay, so I was gone doing Homecoming things for school, so I had to tape this episode. JUST got the chance to watch it, and WOW!! LOOOOVED IT!! I kept screaming, "No, no, no, she can't be in the trunk, please don't be in the trunk, AAAAAGGGHHH!!,", and so was my sister (who HATES Law & Order...she's a Wheel of Fortune fan). I think my all-time favorite part though was when Goren stuck his arm out of the elevator after he got that message...it just seemed really real to me. And I didn't like the Captain at first (and not just because he wasn't Captain Deakins...*tear*), but he started to grow on me the way he took charge once the news of Eames' kidnapping was revealed. All in all, GREAT Episode!! I hope this is a good omen of what the entire season will be like!
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Post by LOCIfan on Sept 22, 2006 0:02:02 GMT -5
LOCIfan, You’re right, you did say the last scene... the way you talked about it threw me off – obviously I thought you were talking about the second-to-last scene. It sounds like we pretty much agree on that one. The last one, though, I like just the way it was. It felt very satisfying to me, to see them together after all they’d both been through. As someone else mentioned, I liked that the final scene was evocative, rather than specific. I think it actually allowed the scene to convey much more than it would have with specific lines of dialog. Yep, Observer, we agree on the scene where Goren breaks Jo, and, I think, disagree on the final shot. At the end of that scene, Ross does not seem surprised at all by the fact that Jo has confessed. Ross is not easy for me to read, but as Jo is taken away he turns back to look at Goren, and he seems aware of Goren’s distress. That, along with his earlier responsiveness to Goren, and his reactions to the place where Eames was held, suggest to me that Ross may well have the kind of concern for his detectives that I think a good CO should have. [/quote] See, here's where I disagree about Ross. I don't believe, for a moment, that he and Goren were in cahoots with one another re: breaking Jo. First and foremost, because the way it played to me was that Goren was piecing it together as Jo talked. It was very in-real-time to me, and I felt like I could see that unfolding on Goren's face. Ross, I think, is concerned about his detectives, as long as their angst doesn't get in the way of his ambition. Which, actually, I think is a great concept for a character. For me, it's not about the character of Ross, but is about the physical presence of Bogosian as Ross. Sort of, for me, if the character of Goren were played by John Turturro. Sort of like -- huh? Good character, wrong body...
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Post by Techguy on Sept 22, 2006 1:25:09 GMT -5
Goren starts to get suspicious about Jo--or at least begin to believe the killer wasn't Declan--when he and Ross go to the site where Eames was held captive. Goren says something along the lines of the room being "both too much and not enough, there's no sense of Declan here." Even after Goren asks why would Declan allow himself to get caught with Eames' cell phone, Ross says Goren should get Declan's confession, which suggests Ross still wasn't buying into anyone but Declan as the killer.
In the next scene, Ross is interrogating Declan while Goren and Jo watch outside and talk. Sometime during their conversation, as Jo talks about her plan to kill Eames, I could see through the glass that the door to the interrogation room had opened, which means Ross had left the room--and was then in position to hear what Goren and Jo were talking about. Then Goren says "Jo, it's time" as the cops come in to take her into custody, while Ross watches.
In order for the police to be in position to arrest Jo, it suggests one of two scenarios to me. In one scenario, Goren has already convinced Ross of the possibility of a female serial killer, with the examples Goren mentions to Jo during their talk (the table set low, the pulley system, the killer not talking to Eames so as to disguise her gender) and Ross agrees to go along with Goren's plan--Ross would continue to interrogate Declan while Goren tries to draw Jo out and get her confession. The other scenario is Ross, once he becomes aware of what's going on between Goren and Jo, quickly assembles the cops to be in position to make an arrest, and Goren sees them through the glass behind Jo when he says "Jo, it's time."
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Post by sarahlee on Sept 22, 2006 7:45:27 GMT -5
As always, you guys give me much to think about and clarify the fuzzy parts. I can understand Ross the character better now. I'm still just not taken with Bogosian.
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Post by Metella on Sept 22, 2006 7:50:43 GMT -5
I don't think Ross knew the whole story - as his expression when they lead Jo away is not all for Goren, I think some of it is self reflection on how Goren pulled this off. Still on the fence on this issue.
Napalm in the morning? I don't think we are even near a playground scuffle. This is all mannerful and open.
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Post by Patcat on Sept 22, 2006 8:53:00 GMT -5
Heck, we've been able to discuss religion on this board without it becoming nasty.(G)
I appreciate the discussion of the various time lines--they've helped clear things in my head.
My two cents--Gage appears to have limited thinking, as if his mind has stopped at the time of the Sebastien killings. He also seems to have lost his humanity. Goren, on the other hand, has an open mind, one that can accept ideas Gage can't, such as a femal serial killer. Most importantly, Goren, perhaps at a great cost emotionally, has retained his humanity.
Patcat
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Post by janetcatbird on Sept 22, 2006 9:33:10 GMT -5
Goren confronting Jo: I think that while he had a strong suspicion, the reactions we saw were him having to accept them as truth. One of those "Please let me be wrong about this", only to be all too right.
I'm not sure how much Goren told Ross. While I don't think Ross knows Goren well enough to be humoring him "let's try it to see what happens", I can see Goren giving a limited explanation. Maybe he couched it as "Get him started on the profile and he might let something slip". (He already told Declan that he convinced Ross to let him stay because otherwise he'd have a psychotic break.)
And Eames hair, I've carped before that you either pull it out of your eyes or cut it. Admittedly if it had been pulled back the scrunchy probably would have been lost in the kidnapping, but in day-to-day procedures, Eames, honey...at least they good, wide, solid heels and not stilettos she was wearing!
Why Jo didn't kill Eames? Maybe the phone interrupted her, maybe she had gotten enough jollies that she could stand to wait for nightfall or whatever. Besides, she had some sort of job already, and she probably didn't want to arouse suspicion by mysteriously not showing up.
I know a lot of us caught Jo early on in the episode, I guess I'm just in a British mystery phase where they hang 17 characters in front of you and it's all you can do to keep them straight, much less deduce/eliminate. Considering that CI used to show us the actual crime and criminal a la "Columbo" I shouldn't really complain. Sometimes it's nice to see the plot twist coming and prep for it.
Sorry i misunderstood you, LOCIfan. I like the wordless shot in Eames room. We know they're there for each other, we know they understand, fade out. Read what you want into it. Besides, I couldn't see if the figures were moving, but how do we know one or both of them wasn't zonked out napping after that stress? (Or maybe Goren smuggled a margarita into the hospital, who knows?) I'm just glad they didn't screw up the mood with a snarky set-up to a trite Aesop summary.
--Catbird
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