lovesong
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 98
|
Post by lovesong on Oct 12, 2006 7:16:41 GMT -5
Overall I liked it. It was certainly better than last weks disastor. I do agree that Wheeler screwed up, but I think it was a nice touch. Everyone makes mistakes, I'm glad she's not some cliched "tough as nails chick in a push up bra." She let her partner down, they both know it. The old Logan would definately have had a word or two to say to her about it, but this is the kinder, gentler Logan, older and wiser, yada yada yada. I also remembered that Logan has let a few partners down in the past, and I recall Lennie Briscoe showing some concern about being able to count on Logan. It wasn't really fair, b/c neither incident was Logan's fault, but it was natural for Lennie to be concerned. Perhaps that experience tempered Logan's response in the writers' minds.
I assumed Logan had manipulated the big FDNY guy into helping them, since the Chief wanted to make an example out of someone and was pressuring them to name someone. The guy was facing serious charges for assaulting a cop, and Logan used that to gain his cooperation. That was my take on it.
I liked the hippie watching Logan chasing the kid, that was LOL. As was "Don't make me climb that tree." I had to really laugh picturing 250+ lb Goren running after someone. It was especially ammusing b/c back in the day, Logan was always chasing people, while Lennie went for the car. Major arc, I loved it.
I was grateful they left the Logan backstory (his punching the councilman over a gay insult, and his own tragedy with the priest and his friend, blah blah blah) out of it entirely. He stayed in character without ever hanging his head and looking misty eyed ala Bobby Goren. We would have had to see Goren angsting with his head in his hands at least once over that. It is a refreshing change. The Chesley/Mommy stuff was enough, glad to see they are backing off that tac. I hope they ease off the G/E melodrama too.
I still miss the chung chungs, and am not likely to stop complaining about it anytime soon, but it won't make me stop watching. I'll skip Nicole Wallace episodes, cause she makes me itch, but I won't stop watching just b/c they bring her back. However, one more guy blowing his brains out, one more half naked nubile dead girl, and I'm done. I'll buy season 2 on DVD this Christmas, but I wouldn't be watching season 6 anymore.
I appreciated all the well thought out posts about the sexual nature of the violence, and I agree completely, but for me it is less complicated than that. The bottom line is, If I can't let my 14 year old be in the room when CI is on, it has gone too far. Ask yourself this, you think VD let's his kids watch that? I doubt it. Might as well sit down with them and watch The Cell then too. Afterall, watching Daddy jerk off over a nude dead body isn't far off from the titilation and "orgasmic" quality of the approach in Siren Call. IMO, it is to much for television all together, whether CI or CSI. It just doesn't belong on network TV. As a woman, it offends me. I don't want my son watching portrayls of that sort of thing, and my daughters already have more than enough reason to feel devalued by society as it is. Fistfights are just all together different.
I didn't note who wrote this ep, ut I hope whoever it is is assigned a script for G/E. I really miss their good ole days, and they could use a good crime with good storytelling devises lke this one.
|
|
|
Post by Metella on Oct 12, 2006 7:17:55 GMT -5
Janethyland - sit down ........ I totally agree with what you just laid out above. and Ronni, what I find interesting is you are not a teen So I am wondering, do you often watch scary, violent shows with your children & grandchilden? Is this how you are comfortable with the view we get - NO - make sure you read this, I am not judgeing - I am just asking; as I did not have movies and violent shows available to me when I was a teen. I did in late highschool & went through a horror show watching phase - now I can't stand those horror shows. So I am not judging, I am trying to get a feel for your viewing habits to see if there is a pattern that leads to your outlook. Just as there is a pattern that leads to my outlook.
|
|
|
Post by Summerfield on Oct 12, 2006 9:09:53 GMT -5
Do you really not see a difference in the way the violence is being portrayed this season? Because, if so, I find THAT very interesting! Yes, I see the difference.
|
|
|
Post by culturevulture73 on Oct 12, 2006 9:24:52 GMT -5
I also remembered that Logan has let a few partners down in the past, and I recall Lennie Briscoe showing some concern about being able to count on Logan. It wasn't really fair, b/c neither incident was Logan's fault, but it was natural for Lennie to be concerned. Perhaps that experience tempered Logan's response in the writers' minds. What eps are you remembering, because I'm thinking you're remembering Rey not Mike? I don't remember Lennie thinking Mike let him down (except for the fight in "Exiled").
|
|
Leticia
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 74
|
Post by Leticia on Oct 12, 2006 15:16:01 GMT -5
Well, I finally saw this episode, and what can I really say? It was a solid episode, good enough plot, well executed... in a way I'm disappointed! The last three episodes all gave me a lot to think about (and read here!) whereas this so called "controversial" episode just left me feeling like I'd seen some decent telly, and now I can move on. Even most of the discussion here seems to be as much about Siren Call as it is about this episode (but then it has only been a couple of days).
Re: Wheeler's (lack of) fight intervention. She did try a few times at first, then I think she just got a bit overwhelmed by the scale of it and her own (yes minor, but it's always a bit of a shock) injury. She probably could and should have done more, but I'm glad that she was portrayed as uncertain. No one is perfect, and we saw here that even trained professionals can lose their composure in a pressure situation. She did enough calling in backup, and then she just didn't know what to do. We've all been there. This realistic moment of vulnerability made me like her a whole lot more.
My only compaint is the lack of any references to Malta! That's just my part Maltese bias talking. I went in with no clue whatsoever what the episode was about beyond the title, and didn't get any links to the story till reading this board. I think the title is a bit obscure this week.
|
|
|
Post by NikkiGreen on Oct 12, 2006 15:20:57 GMT -5
|
|
Leticia
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 74
|
Post by Leticia on Oct 12, 2006 18:25:14 GMT -5
That's what I learned reading this board. Were I not a member I would have been left very puzzled.
|
|
Ronni
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 99
|
Post by Ronni on Oct 12, 2006 19:46:50 GMT -5
I never watch horror films at all, never did, my grandkids don't watch CI., not their thing. They don't live with me, they are not connected with this at all. My kids are grown up. So no, if I never watch horror films, I certainly wouldn't watch it with them.
I still don't get the fuss over this, and I never will. All I can say is, I liked Siren Call, and that's it. Whether anyone else does or not is their decision. And I stand by mine. And that's it.
|
|
cifan
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 101
|
Post by cifan on Oct 12, 2006 22:36:32 GMT -5
Ronni, I liked Siren Call too. I gave it an A in Techguy's Poll. Quoting myself, I did comment on "toning down Ashley's appearance and behavior", but in all honesty, I don't think I thought much about it as I was watching the episode.
It wasn't until I started reading the posts that I started thinking "hey, they're right", "her murder was really over sexualized".
Unfortunately, as Janethyland says, I have become desensitized to that type of violence, strictly by watching any other crime show, and I am not a "regular" viewer of anything besides CI and House. Also, just watching the evening news and reading the local papers, is a constant reminder of how sexually demoralizing our society can be. So, I guess I didn't really notice this as being foreign to CI until it was pointed out to me.
I do agreee, season 6 proves to be testing the waters a bit. Would I stop watching CI because of it? No, the writers haven't crossed MY line yet and that point will be different for everyone. For all who fear Goren is getting too emotional and vulnerable, is it possible we're comparing him too much to the Goren of season 5? Kind of dull, flat, lifeless Goren? I want the passionate, alive, on fire, season 2 Goren.
For now, I will enjoy the episodes as they are presented to us and not speculate too much on what might be. I think season 6 is off to a great start.
Sorry, I just realized I haven's mentioned one thing about Maltese Cross in this post. I did enjoy this episode as well. I like the interaction between Logan & Wheeler...loved the donut theory comment.
As an earlier post mentioned, it was a good solid episode. It was entertaining to watch, but when it was over, I didn't give it much thought. The G/E episodes have a different effect on me.
I love the diversity of this board!
|
|
|
Post by sarahlee on Oct 12, 2006 22:46:02 GMT -5
All I can say is, I liked Siren Call, and that's it. Whether anyone else does or not is their decision. And I stand by mine. And that's it. Good. I respect your opinion. You took the time to back it up an explain it to us. One of the good things here is all the different voices. I'm not interested in monologues, I want conversations, even debates!
|
|
Leonore
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 145
|
Post by Leonore on Oct 12, 2006 23:36:29 GMT -5
Re: Maltese Cross
There are still Knights of Malta, and while I think the military aspects of the knights have diminished, the knighthood has kept its moral value characterized by spirit of service, sacrifice and discipline. Knights now fight against disease, poverty, social isolation and intolerance with peaceful means rather than swords.
The eight points of the cross are said to represent the chivalric virtues: Loyalty, Piety, Frankness, Bravery, Glory & Honor, Contempt for death, Helpfulness towards the poor and sick, and Respect for the Church.
We were visiting New York several years ago and went to St. Patrick's Cathedral. There was a ceremony going on accepting men into the Order of Malta. It was totally unexpected, but an interesting service to watch.
I can see why the cross is used as a symbol for the firefighters and I think it is appropriate as a title for the episode.
|
|
|
Post by LOCIfan on Oct 13, 2006 2:41:21 GMT -5
Summerfield, I liked your unedited version better! You never appear lacking in any of your posts! ;D cifan, I agree that it's almost amazingly easy to become complacent about violence and violent images. I just appreciate having a chance to discuss this kind of issue. The kind that sneaks under the radar normally! ronni, sorry you weren't interested in engaging further about your views, but i am always more than willing to agree to disagree.
|
|
|
Post by Observer2 on Oct 13, 2006 17:15:02 GMT -5
I enjoyed Maltese Cross – a good, solid episode that expanded my sense of Ross, as well as my sense of how the writers may be addressing the elements usually handled by Goren and adapting those elements for the Logan/Wheeler/Ross episodes.
On the other hand, one element of this episode has been taking me back to the old days, when I often wondered if I were really watching the same show as everyone else on the board. I’m completely confounded by the way everyone except sobergal95 seems to think that Wheeler did not wade back into the fight after calling for help.
I can see why Wheeler would feel the need to apologize... she wasn’t very effective in helping Logan. From the one take-down she did, it’s hard to tell whether or not she is being played as someone with some training in how to fight people bigger and stronger than she is. But even if she’s had that kind of training, it’s not going to make her very effective at pulling people off of someone else. Most fighting styles that are designed to make you effective against people who are much larger and stronger than you are depend on the fact that the person you are fighting is attacking *you.* Those systems teach how to use the energy of the attack against the attacker – but if the attacker is focused on someone else, that isn’t easy to do. And with the kind of boots that firefighters wear, I doubt that the foot-stomping technique someone mentioned would have done much good (though if done forcefully enough it can be helpful against people wearing normal shoes).
Nevertheless, whether she’s had little training, or whether her training was of little use in that situation, as far as I could see, she never gave up trying.
In the teaser we see the first part of the fight in some detail. When Wheeler first wades in to try to help Logan, some guy throws her to the ground. Then his foot comes up over her, as though he’s going to either kick her, stomp her or pin her down. She grabs his foot and executes a take-down – we see him falling against his buddies. Then she scrambles out of the way for a moment to call for backup. That, apparently, is where everyone remembers her. But after she calls for backup she scrambles back to her feet and wades in again, trying to help – though again, she doesn’t seem very effective. I believe it’s only *after* she has called for help that she gets the cut on her face. In any case, between the teaser and the rest of the fight that we see later in the episode, we see her on her feet, in the midst of things, at least a couple of times after she has called for backup. We may even see her thrown up on the hood of a car when we see the fight spilling out into the street (my TV’s resolution isn’t good enough to tell for sure). She didn’t freeze – she just didn’t do much good, other than calling for help.
Personally, if I were Logan, I’d want her to take some training in using short sticks – billy club style fighting, which can be quite effective for small people – and I’d start keeping a billy club in the car. I’d also want her to learn “found weapon” or “common items as weapons” style fighting, because there was probably something in the firehouse she could have used as a short stick, or as some form of weapon, without being stuck with the choice of being nearly useless or going for lethal force. Still, even as it was, she kept at least one guy busy, except when she took the time to call for backup – which I considered a very sensible move.
As to the larger discussion of sexualized and gratuitous violence, I wonder if we should start a specific thread for it in the General CI Discussion area – it seems ironic that so much of this discussion has occurred in the thread for *this* episode – which most agree did not have a real problem in that area. I think a lot of good points have been made, especially about the teaser for Siren Call (yet another meaning for that title... the siren call of ratings luring the CI team off course). But a lot of the comments have focused on how offensive the sexualized violence is. Unfortunately, I don’t know whether that would have much impact on the current leadership at LO:CI, since it’s likely to pull in more viewers than it drives away. The point that I think – that I hope – might have some impact on them is that such images are not merely reflections of what happens in that kind of crime. There is evidence to suggest that such images may help contribute to the psychological states that allow such crimes to be committed. And even if there *weren’t* study data to suggest it, anyone with sufficient psychological knowledge should be able to connect the dots and understand how such images could affect people -- *especially* the young male population that is the specific target audience for such images.
One of the elements of that – one of the dots to be connected – is precisely the kind of desensitization to violence that people on this thread have talked about experiencing. There’s more I want to say about this, but I think I’ll save it for a thread in the General CI area.
|
|
|
Post by Jefferaldo on Oct 13, 2006 21:28:52 GMT -5
I haven't responded to this episode as yet but when I read the comments, I couldn't believe there were so many negative comments against Wheeler saying she was doing nothing. I saw her get up and try to fight after she called the backup. Exactly what observer said.
|
|
|
Post by NicoleMarie on Oct 13, 2006 21:50:43 GMT -5
I missed the first five minutes - I keep forgetting CI is now on Tuesdays. I'm watching trying to get a feel on Wheeler and not liking her very much. People complained that Barek was flat and dull but I think Wheeler is the flat and dull one. However, she did have the best line in the show: "Where are you getting this? A Scared Straight video?" Very funny. I'm amused, it seems those who disliked Barek like Wheeler and vice versa. Logan also had some serious funnies. "Don't make me climb that tree" and (to Ross saying they need to talk to the victims' friends and after the beating) "Do you want us to go back and ask?" Another Logan funny: The newspaper reading kid pointing Logan in the correct direction that the perp ran and Logan growling. I still don't like Logan very much but anyone who can crack up usually gets into my good graces. Agreeing with Metella and LOCIfan, I'm also unsettled by the graphic violence and the lack criminal intent in the show. Agreeing with Techguy as well, hopefully Goren and Eames will lose the melodramatics. CI feels SVU-y now. Different can or cannot be good. We'll see. A bit of trivia for this show: Nina Siemaszko, who played the wife, is sister to Casey Siemaszko, who played Harvey in Unrequited. ETA: I also recall Wheeler fighting after calling for backup.
|
|