effie
Detective
off chasing plot bunnies...
Posts: 264
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Post by effie on Nov 14, 2006 23:22:20 GMT -5
Yeah, Eames' arc was a really interesting one to watch. One the one hand she was helping him out early on, and kept asking about the personal stuff, only to be virtually ignored by Bobby (as he's so apt to do). And on the second viewing (yes, I said I wasn't going to but there it was in the VCR, and well...) The second time through I noticed that when they were dealing with finding the body, Bobby's cell chirped a different ring, (a text ring,? I'm not so up on these things) he looked at the screen on his phone, and then closed it, and Eames says to him "your brother?" Which is interesting as it means not only that presumably Bobby is trying to get ahold of him, and that Eames knows about it, which means they must have talked about some of what he's going through (and Mama said "you said he'd be here"). So while we can argue that she ought to have been more understanding, at the same time, she did try only to be repeatedly shot down, and at some point she snapped too.
And we did see a glimmer of early Bobby when he leapt into the front of the ambulance.
Oh... and did anyone else notice that as Frances was being wheeled down the hallway and Bobby was trying to deal with her and the nurses and the phone (dear god that scene) that she started to say "they'd have to be ... " and then stopped herself before saying "crazy" and substituted something else. Interesting I thought
Anyway... its definitely one for multiple viewings and I can't wait to hear everyone's take on things. There's more than enough stuff to "stick to the spoon." (to quote Carver ;0)
Lordy lordy Bobby... if ever a man needed a vacation. I actually thought it was an interesting choice the Bobby's meltdowns were relatively restrained. It's more than obvious that he's spent all his energy and he's running on empty. The man's been positively turned inside out by rage and grief and all his little nerve endings are exposed...
Now we get to wait two weeks at least until the next (hopefully) Goren and Eames episodes as I believe the next two are Logan and Wheeler ones...
Nothing like keeping us twisting in the wind there Warren!!!
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Post by sarahlee on Nov 14, 2006 23:23:23 GMT -5
Nobody has said anything about the "War" aspect of the epi yet...
1. The War between work and family
2. The War between honour and revenge
3. The War between personal and private
4. The War between Military life and Civilian life
Any more?
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Post by raeangel319 on Nov 14, 2006 23:23:45 GMT -5
hmm..i was reading everyone's opinions so far...and i'm just gonna go stream of consciousness here.... i figured that bobby's mom's symptoms and behavior didn't appear so schizophrenic-like (what i know of schizophrenia anyways) because she IS medicated after all...and then what saralee said about showing symptoms of other mental illnesses as well...well, that just kinda makes sense to me ya know? surprised to hear about eames' husband..but also glad to hear some of her personal backstory. initially surprised as well about eames' reaction to bobby's outburst. she was pi$$ed it seemed. but although i agree w/ everyone else's theories as to why she was upset (self-preservation..he's not letting her in; she's going through a tough time this season too....etc)...i think part of it might just be that while she's not totally cold-hearted...bobby was not professional, and she had to pick up the pieces. although sometimes under that much stress, it's hard to be professional. also, she asked him at the elevators if he was willing to just throw it all away. she may have been hurt by that too, that he seemed not to care and just willing to throw his job (and their partnership) away. .. and last but not least...comes the irrational reasonings...that maybe she hates that he seems to be getting beaten down by this (can you blame him?)...and perhaps she always thought of him being strong...and to see him like this...makes her mad. it's not rational...and it's not bobby's fault. but if you had the "deep understanding of human behavior" that bobby does...maybe you can see that human behavior doesn't always make sense and you don't always feel how you're supposed to. i don't know..my thinking is that after mama goren dies...bobby might almost be...set free? like a weight is lifted off of him? that's HORRIBLE to say...and i know it's been written into fanfictions..but it almost makes sense. he loves his mother, but he's been caring for her all his life. and it's been hard on him. doesn't mean he wants her to die..but i think after the initial shock of her death...the stress may be lifted considerably. man..i feel guilty for even thinking that (fanfiction is one thing...and even tv is another thing...but the thought still makes me feel guilty ) what happened to this "these characters will become closer" deal that ...who was it..leight? said in that blog after blind spot? hopefully goren and eames get over their spat...the drama plays out..and they actually talk..or at least..something. work together peacfully? ok..done writing my book...for now. sorry, but i warned you it'd be stream of consciouness
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effie
Detective
off chasing plot bunnies...
Posts: 264
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Post by effie on Nov 14, 2006 23:30:27 GMT -5
Oh, and what was that about Eames having been a bartender. Somehow that just sounds so right, yet so totally unexpected. So now we know she's been a widow for 8 years.
Oh, (dang, so much to say) and the whole undercurrent of Bobby commenting on how he didn't think the commissioner was being such a good father... we all know where its coming from, but it was just one more thing to leak out.
But the father's final aria with Ross in the background, father to father as it were... what a terrific performance.
Ok, will try and shush now and get back to watching "Malignant" on USA ... its a terrific epi as well.
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Post by sobergal95 on Nov 14, 2006 23:31:30 GMT -5
Nobody has said anything about the "War" aspect of the epi yet... 1. The War between work and family 2. The War between honour and revenge 3. The War between personal and private 4. The War between Military life and Civilian life Any more? 5. War between Goren and Ross 6. War between Goren and Eames (although I hope this will be more like a military conflict than a full-on war).
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Post by raeangel319 on Nov 14, 2006 23:38:14 GMT -5
oh! i forgot..gotta watch it again (although not tonight)...but that last bit in the interrogation room, where eames said to bobby..something about "you don't believe that do you?!?"...was she doing that to on purpose? i can't think that w/ the lil spat going on that goren and eames had the teamwork going so well that they'd be able to play their lil games with the suspects....but that was rather unprofessional of HER to say that in front of a suspect.
although i DID lose track of what they were actually talking about...maybe bobby was in the wrong or something..but still unprofessional of eames to say it in front of a suspect i thought.
guess i'll have to watch again tomorrow and see if i can follow better.
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effie
Detective
off chasing plot bunnies...
Posts: 264
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Post by effie on Nov 14, 2006 23:40:15 GMT -5
Eames' outburst in the last bit in the interrogation room did feel a bit like a misstep brought on by her still being pissed at him. But he/they recovered so I couldn't quite tell. But I did wonder.
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Post by raeangel319 on Nov 14, 2006 23:42:07 GMT -5
then at the end when he was pissed and took off like he did...i mean he was pissy anyways cuz of everything, but maybe eames' behavior in the interrogation room pissed him off all over again? so he just had to leave as soon as he got out of the interrogation room?
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lodi
Rookie
Posts: 20
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Post by lodi on Nov 14, 2006 23:43:35 GMT -5
OK, don't virtually shoot me - I know there is a lot of sympathy for Goren out there and I feel for the guy too - but, as the daughter of a mentally ill mother, I was a little surprised at the level of enmeshment between Goren and his mom. I knew he was her primary caretaker, but thought he would have developed some pretty firm boundaries by now in order to survive. I know that I am very careful about when I answer the phone. Of course, Frances is dying and maybe that is why all boundaries are out the window... and maybe she does have some dementia or is altered by medication... but my mom has had several heart surgeries and wow, you still have to protect yourself to some degree. The nurses could call him if there was a change in her condition. She was really pulling his strings at a time when he wasn't free to respond.
If his life has been wrapped up in hers for that long to that degree, he is going to have quite an identity crisis after she dies.
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Post by mndpacer04 on Nov 14, 2006 23:51:15 GMT -5
Great feedback all. I was afraid that everyone would hate it because it was a personal episode.
I believe hurt was at the root of Eames' anger - did you see the hurt on her face when Bobby blew up at her and the elevators doors were closing? And I think Bobby left because the case was solved and he really needed to get to his mother. That's all that matters to him now.
Great performances by all. I have to rewatch it for everything to sink in, but it was a powerful episode. I hate having to wait two weeks for the next Goren/Eames episode - that is so wrong :-(
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Post by sobergal95 on Nov 14, 2006 23:59:58 GMT -5
Ok help!
Theres a scene with the dad just before the "desk clearing" where Goren suggests the commisioner should console the fiance, and they guy ends up saying "what do you know about my daughter or what kind of father I am?" and Goren says "as little as you know about _______". I cannot make out what he says. Any help still up?
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effie
Detective
off chasing plot bunnies...
Posts: 264
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Post by effie on Nov 15, 2006 0:02:45 GMT -5
Yep, i'm up for a while anyway...
Goren says "as little as you know about me..."
and Goren had some crack about the commisioner never offering sympathy...
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Post by gorensdoppelganger on Nov 15, 2006 0:17:32 GMT -5
LODI, "OK, don't virtually shoot me - I know there is a lot of sympathy for Goren out there and I feel for the guy too - but, as the daughter of a mentally ill mother, I was a little surprised at the level of enmeshment between Goren and his mom. I knew he was her primary caretaker, but thought he would have developed some pretty firm boundaries by now in order to survive."
No I agree with you, I had a similar situation with my mother as you are having with yours. In order for Goren to have been in the service and be an effective police officer for so long, Goren had to have sufficient boundaries with his mother and dealing with her illness. I know I did with mine until she kept going into Congestive Heart Failure and her kidney's started to fail. It did start to impede on my work life.
Many mentally ill people due to the nature of their illness are self involved and you learn how to deal with their anger and disappointment at living your own life, but when other health factors contribute like dementia as an example can and do occur, decisions have to be made. It's very hard doing this long distance. As basically an only child without what appears to other supporting family, Goren has done a fantastic job of holding himself together.
I still feel it was wrong of his Captain and partner to expect him to be able to do his job when he made it clear that he had a significant family situation going on at home. It wasn't just his mother's usual condition. I don't blame Goren for leaving he had to make a decision and he chose to be there for his mother. It's hard enough going through a significant illness when you're not mentally ill, but when you are, the nurses and doctors do treat you different and can lose patience with the patient.
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Post by sarahlee on Nov 15, 2006 0:26:32 GMT -5
OK, don't virtually shoot me - I know there is a lot of sympathy for Goren out there and I feel for the guy too - but, as the daughter of a mentally ill mother, I was a little surprised at the level of enmeshment between Goren and his mom. I knew he was her primary caretaker, but thought he would have developed some pretty firm boundaries by now in order to survive. I know that I am very careful about when I answer the phone. Of course, Frances is dying and maybe that is why all boundaries are out the window... and maybe she does have some dementia or is altered by medication... but my mom has had several heart surgeries and wow, you still have to protect yourself to some degree. The nurses could call him if there was a change in her condition. She was really pulling his strings at a time when he wasn't free to respond. If his life has been wrapped up in hers for that long to that degree, he is going to have quite an identity crisis after she dies. lodi--It's the guilt. You are careful, and wise, but not all of us can be in this situation (like Bobby and his mom) without feeling conflicted and guilty. You want to do the very best for your mother, you love her, even when she has made your life so difficult. You just want to make her happy, please her, even though you know you never can, you still try. Bobby is smart, he knows she is manipulating him, he knows he cannot please her, but he cannot help but feel the failure. The careful, clinical separation of his work and his personal life is out of his control now. And something is up with his brother...
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Post by NicoleMarie on Nov 15, 2006 0:37:47 GMT -5
I was very disappointed with one on so many levels, especially with Eames at the end. I think there was more melodrama than there was actual Criminal Intent. First Ross. He just had to make his condenscending remark in the beginning, didn't he? "Thank you for joining us, detective". He did bother to be nice for a moment, telling Goren he'd have him out of there as soon as he could. (Yeah, right.) Then he got annoyed when Goren snapped back at the dad for snapping at Goren. Since Goren was obviously about to pop a cork, well, Goren did pop a cork, Ross should have sent Goren home. It seemed Ross cared more about his case than he did his detective. Then Eames. [/i]"What was the hell was that?"[/i] What the hell didshe think it was? Of all people, she should know. Then she got pissed off at Goren for telling her to "back off". With her attitude, he had every reason to tell her to back off. Do you want to lose everything?' Honey, do you think he even remotely cares about his job right now? I don't think I've ever seen Eames be such a pathetic partner. It pains me to diss her because I love her but, I think she deserves it this time. I noticed Goren wasn't answering Eames' questions but then again, he never really does. He's never let her in that way and he's probably never going to. I can understand her frustation at being held at arms length but, being obnoxious is not the way to get anywhere, especially towards someone at wit's end with a dying mother. It appears Goren was in the middle of a family emergency, and I don't think he should have been working the case at all. It's not just not healthy for him, it's not healthy for the case. It's rather shocking that Ross and Eames were so indigant at Gorens' obvious distress. I've seen Nicole give him more sympathy than those two did. Good God, if Goren goes the down the "Un-Stabler" (SVU) road, I am going to hurt someone. If I wanna watch SVU, I'll watch SVU. Well, at least we know what Goren's issues are upfront instead of waiting two year to find out... Did Goren quit? Well, between a wanker boss, a suddenly selfish partner, and a dying, demanding mother, I'd quit, too. Ooh, I feel better now. ;D Besides the melodrama, the story was tight. I liked that I couldn't figure out who the killer was or why Amanda was killed. I was quite amused when the dad tried a Logan and failed, yet Goren and Eames got him to confess instead.
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