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Post by NicoleMarie on Nov 15, 2006 0:42:23 GMT -5
Ok help! Theres a scene with the dad just before the "desk clearing" where Goren suggests the commisioner should console the fiance, and they guy ends up saying "what do you know about my daughter or what kind of father I am?" and Goren says "as little as you know about _______". I cannot make out what he says. Any help still up? "Me". He said "me".
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Post by sobergal95 on Nov 15, 2006 0:57:38 GMT -5
Ok, I've rewatched and am ready to put in my 2 cents (and then some!) Thanks for the help effie!! And Lodi, I totally empathize and agree with your statement about the boundaries. I also have a mentally ill mother and you do have to set those boundaries. I think in the past, a daily phone call and updates by the doctors/nurses was enough, but with the addition of the cancer she seems to be deteriorating. It doesn't surprise me that she would call him, and her distrust of her caregivers seems to be in-line with her diagnosis. I think Goren TRIED to do the right thing from the first phone call, trying to ask the captain to bring someone else in instead. (But I don't imagine the commisioner would have wanted Wheeler/Logan after their little run in with the FDNY). He tried to get his brother to help pick up the slack, and it would seem the brother was a no-show. And I think Eames tried to pick up the slack, encouraging him to go back to Carmel Ridge; and Ross seemed to be in the loop on it. "Get your partner back here, he's needed"... it wasn't said judgmentally, just authoritatively. He also said "I'll have you out of here as soon as I can". I think they were going out of their way to help him. Even though Ross had to give Goren a "You're out of line detective" his next remark followed by the little desk "incident"; when Goren comes back into the office he asked "Had time to cool off?" It just seems like Ross showed he was willing to kind of let it go and move on, and even the commisioner seemed able to overlook it too and get back to business. But that's when Eames starts showing how angry she still is. Maybe kind of a guy thing? Bobby's gonna have to go back and tell her he was wrong for her to move past it. And after his last remarks as he's walking out the door, he will probably have to go back to the Captain and kiss some @$$ there too. Goren is so bound by duty I can't see him quitting, but I can see him trying to get himself fired. Hopefully Ross will see thats what is going on and not let him do that. I think despite their few little conflicts, he sees that he is a good detective. Can they order him to take take time off? And I'm not sure that Eames was unprofessional in front of the suspect. It was sort of "Good cop/bad cop" although she may have been a little more passionate about it. Despite his personal problems, he saw the way in to get the guy to confess and did that. I'm sure theres WAY more to comment on and look forward to seeing what you guys say. Oh and by the way, did anyone notice we beat the "most users online" right after this episode?
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elizabethbay
Detective
Oh god, I've swallowed the tie clip...
Posts: 242
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Post by elizabethbay on Nov 15, 2006 1:14:31 GMT -5
Such terrific stuff y'all are writing and thinking. So good I'm late for a dinner thing. Trying to dry my hair with one hand and scroll with the other. (Getting confused and drying the keyboard and scrolling hair now).
My general take from what you've said is that , above all, everyone thought this critical episode was beautifully acted, and Moreno did a great job. Also can't help noticing that several of you have personal experience with mentally ill mothers, and the scenario here is plausible. Will pick up the thread later tomorrow. (And yeah SG95, I sure did notice the new record for users online at one time ;D)
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Post by sarahlee on Nov 15, 2006 1:23:30 GMT -5
More "War" conflicts:
The war between Goren and his brother
The war between Goren and his mother
The war between responsibility and duty
The war between sanity and insanity
The war between intimacy and privacy
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Post by sobergal95 on Nov 15, 2006 1:44:53 GMT -5
Along sarahlee's war theme:
Ashley's war to stay in the army or quit
Ashley's war to tell her dad or not; to marry Carl or not
The mother's war to tell bout the thrown out medal or not.
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Post by sarahlee on Nov 15, 2006 2:09:28 GMT -5
Yay! Janet's here! Now we can talk...
...the war with oneself...yes, it's there in every character. The struggle with sanity/insanity,(Goren and his mom) justice and revenge, (Iraqi and US soldiers) family duty and work (Ross, Eames, Goren, the Commissioner) loyalty to comrades vs. loyalty to self, brother and brother, husband and wife, daughter and father, life and death-- any more?
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Post by mikeyrocks on Nov 15, 2006 2:12:47 GMT -5
I too was going to mention that Janet - the WAR WITH ONESELF - often the most difficult and complex war we fight.
I quite liked this episode - I can't say I loved it BUT I did enjoy it.
I wasn't that interested in all the personal stuff - I was actually more intrigued by the case - War does bring out both the best ( loyality, seflessness ) and the worst in people doesn't it.
Now I hope nobody will throw rotten fruit at me - I felt that tonight there was way way too much SOAP.
Yes I understand that Goren has had a difficult life and such - BUT - I find that this is just being driven home to me abit too much this season. I get that its part of the story arc for the character - PERHAPS even ( although I hope I'm wrong ) the arc that will remove him from the canvas of CI. But its just abit much for me - to me its verging on the melodramatic.
I've never really done well with melodrama ;D
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Post by sarahlee on Nov 15, 2006 2:21:02 GMT -5
All this brain-stimulating discussion gets me wound up, I start thinking, and sleepytime is over! Right now I've got "...the war at.." and "...the eternal internal struggle" rolling around in my head...I over-think, you see...
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Post by nonmanis on Nov 15, 2006 2:22:48 GMT -5
Mental illness can brake a whole family, as we saw what the mother did to Goren, manipulation is what a mental ill person does well. I worked in one of the army's hospital mental ward as a nurse.
Goren was just so worn out by the pull of the job and his mother. VDO did a good again, Eames was not so bad either and so did Ross.
Today was my day to see VDO twice in a part of being a person torn by family, the other was a movie on lifetime channel, "Crooked hearts"
Both Law and Order CI and this movie showed what a great actor VDO is.
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Post by Techguy on Nov 15, 2006 2:33:15 GMT -5
This is another very very difficult episode to watch and talk about. The wars within and without us rage out of control as we struggle with pressures, real or imagined, from family and our most intimate relationships.
"The War At Home" is the seventh episode in a season in which families are being undermined and torn asunder, relationships warped or broken beyond repair. Starting with the premiere episode "Blind Spot" in which a neglected daughter turns serial killer to get her father's attention, we segued to "Tru Love" in which the teenage son of divorced parents gets into a sexual relationship with a teacher who hasn't quite outgrown her childhood traumas.
From there we moved on to "Siren Call" in which a mother struggling with cancer loses her older daughter emotionally and then physically when her husband, the stepfather, kills the girl to relieve the stress on his wife. And after that we got "Maltese Cross" about a hero firefigher leading a double life, married but gay, who is murdered and whose unborn child will have to grow up knowing the truth but not knowing him.
"Bedfellows" follows, about favorite and not so-favorite sons, daughters-in-law, and grandsons, and how their dysfunctional lives and relationships devolved into a double murder. After that "Masquerade" an episode about an unsolved 14-year-old murder of a teenage girl, how it devastated her mother, and the role the family next door played in the killing. After that "Country Crossover" a country music ode to broken hopes and dreams, of infidelity and murder for love.
And now the seventh installment "The War At Home" the war to end all wars for the CI triumvirate, but most especially for Goren. Another family ripped apart when a young woman conflicted with her family and military responsibilities is murdered, in the name of duty and honor. The Goren/Eames partnership is stressed almost to the breaking point. Goren, who knows just about everything from books but now is at a loss with how to deal with his dying and needy mother, keeps his long time partner Eames at a cool distance. Eames, for her part, is not quite recovered from the trauma of her kidnapping and, frustrated by Goren's distancing himself from her overtures, assumes a cool and emotionless detachment from his predicament. Captain Ross, trying to maintain at least the facade of a family holiday celebration with his sons, ex-wife and her new husband/significant other, is torn away yet still conflicted when he must be both emotionally distant during the murder investigation and at the same time supportive of his grieving friend.
TWAH is an emotionally draining, extremely stressful, and overly melodramatic episode, heightened and underscored by Goren's slip and uncharacteristic loss of control, with a departing cavalier attitude daring Ross and anyone else to fire him or stop him from leaving. What happened to the story of the murdered returning vet from Iraq, whose story was buried and overwhelmed by all the ancillary melodrama? And what has happened to the Goren I know, to the CI I have been watching for the past five seasons?
The battlefield is strewn with corpses, the casualties are mounting, and the collateral damage is yet to be assessed. Time to retreat to the trenches and regroup; the enemy is at the gates, and the long dark night of the soul is at hand.
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Post by sarahlee on Nov 15, 2006 2:43:19 GMT -5
You said it all. I'm going to bed. 'Night, ya'll...
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Post by SarahIvy on Nov 15, 2006 3:01:36 GMT -5
I love all the posts so far on this...sometimes I feel so behind being a West Coaster! After reading all of this and talking about it on the phone for an hour with a friend, I think my thoughts (and second viewing) will have to wait for tomorrow. Right now my responses are far too simplistic and emotional to bother posting.
But the incredibly thoughtful posts already here will keep my mind churning until then.
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Post by sobergal95 on Nov 15, 2006 3:07:51 GMT -5
This is another very very difficult episode to watch and talk about.
TWAH is an emotionally draining and extremely stressful episode, heightened and underscored by Goren's slip and loss of control, and departing attitude daring Ross and anyone else to fire him or stop him from leaving. The battlefield is strewn with corpses, the casualties are mounting, and the collateral damage is yet to be assessed. Time to retreat to the trenches and regroup; the enemy is at the gates, and the long dark night of the soul is at hand. ..... I liked your words there Techguy, "casualties mounting," "collateral damage".... I imagine we have more to see this season along these lines. And I'm glad we (as viewers) have time to regroup ! I think our friends will need some healing time after this episode!
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Post by Cassie on Nov 15, 2006 6:03:29 GMT -5
The War at Home, when we say the war within ourselves.
What about the struggle of the fans? Who love/hate the new LOCI season? Its not the same LOCI for sure, but I am enjoying the interaction between the detectives more, Goren, Eames and Ross.
I liked the episode, I was all waned up, and told to take a Tylenol PM so I would get some sleep last night. I finally got to meet Bobby's mom. I thought her a little odd, but I also feel that some people, when they are terminal, are more demanding then they normally are. I wonder too if there is a reason why his mom is at Carmel Ridge other then her mental illness. Like does she belong to the prison population at Carmel Ridge?
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peachybc
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 109
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Post by peachybc on Nov 15, 2006 7:34:14 GMT -5
Wow, some truly wonderful thoughts and insights into this episode! Love this board and the interaction here.
My mind is still rehashing the episode. I need to see it again to get some clarity but a few rambling thoughts here...
Frances Goren's behavior reminds me sooo much of my mother-in-law when she was in the hospital for surgery. Folks would barely get home after a long, vigilant day at the hospital to grab a bite to eat and unwind a bit and the low and behold the phone would ring. It would be another weepy, melodramatic demand from Mom. It got to the point that folks were afraid to answer the phone! Part of the "drama" was a bad reaction to anesthesia and pain meds and the other part was/is just her personality: "It's all about me or sure as heck should be!" attitude.
I think Frances Goren has some of that personality attitude combined with her multiple illnesses. Plus, I imagine she was promised, expecting a day together with Goren. It was Thanksgiving after all.
As others have pointed out with ill family members (whether it's physical or mental or both), the caretakers do have to draw boundaries in order to survive and maintain. Right now Goren seems to be in an emotional eddy -- one he can't seem to break free from. If he doesn't set some limits soon, he's gonna go right down the emotional drain.
I think the death of Goren's mother will be a cathartic release for him. Yes there will be grief and pain of loss, but there will also be a freedom, a lifting of a long time hopeless burden. That sense of release will bring guilt with it, but I think it's a natural, normal part of the grieving process under such difficult circumstances.
As to Eames... her reaction, after Goren's desk trashing, initially seemed harsh but then again Goren's not the only one with problems. Eames has undergone her own traumas this season. She has sought out professional help (no doubt required by the department) to cope. Has Goren?? Has Goren tried to help her cope with her trauma?? And Eames has repeatedly reached out to Goren about the trials with his Mom, only to be shut out, rebuffed or flat out ignored by Goren. I think Eames is reaching her limit with him. She can't help him if he won't talk to her. Like it or not I think Eames has come to depend on and needs Goren. His refusal to share and unburden himself feels like a rejection to her. I can't help but wonder if Eames is thinking something like, "Stop playing martyr and freaking get some help and unburden yourself to someone! Or you're going to destroy everything and not just for yourself."
Goren's seemingly petulant behavior at the end with the "fire me" comment strikes me as a call for help. Goren's reached his emotional limit, and instead of admitting it's more than he can handle and that he needs help, Goren wants someone else to make that decision for him. Interesting.
Hard to believe that Ross would take that "fire me" comment seriously. I got the feeling that Ross finally admitted he needed Goren too, and that Ross was finally filled in on Goren's personal family problems. Ross just might force Goren to taken personal leave though.
Lots of other thoughts running wild, but I should shut up for now. LOL
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