|
Post by ldjrac on Nov 16, 2006 8:18:04 GMT -5
First off - new to posting - first time posting anywhere
I have read through the other post and kind of feel like I know most of you. I like reading your post. I have been reading for a while and thanks to all your insight.
Any way here's my two-cents worth.
Regarding Eames reaction - I was torn between being mad at her and feeling bad for her.
was it me or did anyone else notice that the actual crime scene still is getting to her. When Bobby pulled the girl's head up to look at the wound Eames turned her head. Over the years she stood right there and watch taking in every detail of the crime scene but it looked like part of her just could not handle the "dead body"; probably because she came so close to being the victim in BLIND SPOT. This is just an oberservation that I had not seen posted yet - so I thought I would throw it into the discusion
I think she is still struggling to keep her control and she just does't have the time or patience to deal with Bobby's issues.
|
|
elizabethbay
Detective
Oh god, I've swallowed the tie clip...
Posts: 242
|
Post by elizabethbay on Nov 16, 2006 9:34:11 GMT -5
A brief sidebar here about Rita Moreno. Just saw the clip over at The Reel, and I've commented elsewhere on the net, but I am so impressed I have to say it again. She's ....brilliant, perfect. And perfectly drawn by the writers. What could have been a disaster is so on the money, in every way. Above all, this character - whatever else anyone may think of this episode - carries back perfectly in time, too, to all the eps where she was a disembodied notion, an image in the mind of Goren. Moreno has given us a Frances Goren that will never disrupt our pleasure with those old eps. That's a gift to the fans, for sure.
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Nov 16, 2006 10:33:40 GMT -5
Techguy; I hoped you'd add your perspective regarding the use of the military connection in this episode. My following comments are not meant to disparage your comments--I certainly have no right to do so--but did you find what LOCI did here more objectionable than what some other programs have done? And is it more exploitative than other things LOCI has done with other groups? Again, I ask out of interest and intend no slight of any kind.
I agree that Ms. Moreno did a fine job.
And, to return to my habit of beating poor horses, just let me point out again that it's Bobby who needs to ask for leave and help. But it's well within his character not to do these things, and cops are notorious for toughing it out when they shouldn't. Alex is engaging in some of that behavior by coming back to work so quickly.
My hope, of course, is that the LOCI creative staff is running the characters and us through the ringer, and all will come out better at the end. It's not realistic, perhaps, but I occasionally want my fiction to bring order to chaos. Put simply--I like Bobby and Alex; I want them to be ok.
Patcat
|
|
|
Post by Metella on Nov 16, 2006 11:56:30 GMT -5
Patcat - I'm going to jump in and answer you on the military question, hope you don't mind.
TDY is hard on families - hard on relationships. It can create anger, it does create an independence in the people left behind that can be difficult for the soldier to adjust to. This is a huge dynamic that was dismissed here.
Guilt over an action taken by a group - even if you don't pull the trigger - can be all consuming. The GROUP dynamic which was also HUGE was ALSO not addressed here. This show chose to go with the detective's personal lives. It was a choice - I don't like it.
Other shows have gone into the mental significance of military life & done it fine.
I know TechGuy will you a more detailed answer; and from the soldier's perspective. Mine was from the family's perspective.
|
|
effie
Detective
off chasing plot bunnies...
Posts: 264
|
Post by effie on Nov 16, 2006 12:16:19 GMT -5
Let me just throw this into the mix.
Given the connection between Frances and Bobby, it struck me as a wonderful parallel that Frances' reaction to not wanting to deal with Dr. Sylveste was to pretend to be asleep. Bobby just changes the subject, but neither of them seem to like to deal with difficulties head on.
Like mother, like son!
|
|
elizabethbay
Detective
Oh god, I've swallowed the tie clip...
Posts: 242
|
Post by elizabethbay on Nov 16, 2006 12:25:41 GMT -5
Let me just throw this into the mix. Given the connection between Frances and Bobby, it struck me as a wonderful parallel that Frances' reaction to not wanting to deal with Dr. Sylveste was to pretend to be asleep. Bobby just changes the subject, but neither of them seem to like to deal with difficulties head on. Like mother, like son! Is this what the psych people call 'avoidance-avoidance'? Interesting parallel, Effie. I wonder if in R. Goren's case, it is nurture, not nature - the way he's developed a coping mechanism for dealing with his mother. He can certainly tackle other problems - gun in the face, painful realisations - without ducking. But his mother? Survival tactics of a child, and entrenched over the years. Hey, it's a tv , but your point is thought-provoking.
|
|
|
Post by janetcatbird on Nov 16, 2006 12:29:45 GMT -5
Effie, nice detail! Elizabethbay, I agree with you that Moreno's performance is spot-on, nice and fitting with all the tidbits we've been given before. Peachybc--if you need help with Mr. Leight, I'm available! (Maybe that can be our next group gathering--after we beat down Nicole Wallace in the alley we can move in on the production studio!)
Someone upthread mentioned how weird it was at Ross's THanksgiving. You could tell that it was not normal--didn't you see the tense looks on everybody's faces? Besides, he mentioned "I know this is one of two Thanksgivings for several of you". I think that's just a neat touch for Ross: he doesn't strike me as the type who would have an amicable divorce (lord, he's harsh enough with coworkers, can you imagine personal bitterness and hurt?), but he's sucking it up. He was prepared to make a sacrifice--allowing the wife and her significant other--because seeing his boys was that important to him. Admittedly not the most tactful, and the grimaces/halts weren't fooling anybody, but he was at least trying to make things halfway decent for his children in a tough spot.
(See? Very little of that was said, but I'm an intelligent, alert viewer who can draw inferences. And I'm sure people disagree with my view, but isn't half the fun speculation and debate over what everything means? As opposed to spoon-feeding the audience and assuming we're slack-jawed idiots?)
All this talk of "I like to see character development!" makes me roll my eyes. Please don't be offended, I don't mean to be ugly to anyone on the board, but my own personal take: "development" implies a gradual process over time, not BLAMMO! all at once blitzkrieg's, which is what we're getting. They worked in plenty of character development in neat little touches along the way that meshed nicely with the human stories they were investigating: pain, guilt, love, death, what have you. (I sound like a hypocrite because I fussed three years ago that I wanted to see the baby, but I liked how they handled Eames: a brief glimpse, and some throwaway lines that are believable and appropriate to the situation, not taking over.) If you thought that there wasn't enough character stuff in the show initially, how did you get to be fans?
Isn't that how you find out about people in real life? You spend time with them, and usually with people who aren't family--coworkers, as the characters are--you get bits and pieces over a while. (Or maybe I'm just more reserved, but how many people tell you their life story and deep, dark, intimate details at the drop of a hat?) That's one thing that makes me groan or snort in most entertainment movies/TV shows-- reminds me of The Great Muppet Caper when Diana Rigg is describing her brother's misdeeds at their first meeting:
MISS PIGGY: "Umm, why are you telling me this?" LADY HOLIDAY: "Plot exposition, it has to go somewhere."
I DO NOT like where they're headed. Obviously the writers and performers are capable of fine work, but if they're so busy trying to titillate, grab ratings, and "See! We're cool and hip and revamped!"...oy. Fins to the left, Fins to the right...
--Catbird
|
|
mimi
Detective
Posts: 231
|
Post by mimi on Nov 16, 2006 12:47:46 GMT -5
Why didn't Goren pull his Army experience to show that yes indeed he could relate? One of the most astute observation I've read so far! I think that would have shifted the story from Bobby goes batty to Bobby's past and personal turmoil are intertwined with the plotI also have a huge problem with the length of the investigation. One can assume from the first questioning of the friend that the 2 girls went out the night before (let's assume it was Friday) the friend said she left around 2 AM-ish; and from the outdoor scenes, we can see that the searching scenes are done during the day (in November full daylight is around 8 AM til 4 PM). So, if they started searching for the girl in the morning (let's say 10 AM) it means the girl would only been missing for 8 hours or even less? If the investigation took place on Saturday and the arrest on Sunday, that's also a lot of back and forth in one day for Goren. When I was watching, I was under the impression that the tango between Frances and Robert Goren lasted for at least 2 days; but now I think it was only one day.
|
|
peachybc
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 109
|
Post by peachybc on Nov 16, 2006 13:02:49 GMT -5
Effie, nice detail! Elizabethbay, I agree with you that Moreno's performance is spot-on, nice and fitting with all the tidbits we've been given before. Peachybc--if you need help with Mr. Leight, I'm available! (Maybe that can be our next group gathering--after we beat down Nicole Wallace in the alley we can move in on the production studio!) --Catbird LOL Catbird. I'd just like to get Warren to TONE IT DOWN a bit. I understand that G & E only have 11 episodes. I grasp that all too short time span for story telling. And I know that the "conflict, conflict, conflict -- that's what makes a good story" mantra is pounded into writers but whew...Give us viewers a breather. If this personal, emotional character aspect had been dotted here and there, I think everyone would have been pleased and actually hungered for more. Now I feel like I'm going need a tranquilizer before I watch the next G & E episode! ;)
|
|
effie
Detective
off chasing plot bunnies...
Posts: 264
|
Post by effie on Nov 16, 2006 13:08:16 GMT -5
I was unsure as well about the number of days the episode spanned... but I think I remember at least four different shirts on Bobby... so while that's not an exact indiction, I often used to tell differing days by marking Bobby's ties... so its in the same vein.
just checked the screen caps so as not to say something stupid, and here's the rundown...
blue corduroy shirt during first Thanksgiving call and first trip to rest stop parking lot, and then back to Carmel Ridge to see his mom into her treatment.
Greenish Khaki shirt at second time to the rest stop (lets call off the hunt)
orangey striped shirt to talk to the EMT and scout the junkyard
plaid shirt for the final desk-clearing and subsequent confession and exiting stage right ;0)
so four days??
At any rate its as many shirts as we've seen him wear the whole rest of the season put together. I've only counted four of the French cuff shirts that he's been switching between.
Anyway... we now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion and away from anal retentive costumer land ;0)
|
|
|
Post by mwendyr on Nov 16, 2006 14:02:32 GMT -5
I've got to say that this episode was brilliant... and it was wasn't. That's the feeling I've come away with anyway. I loved it, the whole time I was watching it was amazing but the ending just ... ended. I know they like to do this but it didn't seem real to me and Bobby's behaviour didn't ring true to me either. I know his mother is sick but he only seemed to be reacting to her 'attitude', not her sickness - she kept phoning and that's what was pushing him over the edge towards what Wheeler called tipping point last week. I, personally, am as frustrated as Alex. She kept offering herself as someone to for him to vent to and he ignored her completely until finally telling her to 'back off'. I think she was ready to accept an apology too, when he came back at the commissioner had had his go. But he didn't look at her, didn't say anything to her, he just carried on with the case and that's what pi***d her off. I really hope that the character of Bobby isn't heading for the loony bin, because it doesn't seem real to me, he's always been professional up until now. Hence, my frustration, I feel like we're watching a different Bobby Goren to the one we've seen in the previous 5 seasons. I think The Nanny was fantastic! I can't remember the actress' name. LOL. I've never thought of her as a serious actor but her breakdown at finding Amanda's body was just amazing, I was moved to tears. Same when, at the end, the father broke down as well. Their portrayal of the parents was just perfect and they were the highlight of the episode for me. That, and finding out Alex's husband's name was Joe... wonder if his last name was Smith. A little unexpected but it was cool to hear, finally having it revealed on the actual show. I hope that in the next Goren and Eames episode, we won't just get a fine and dandy team - because I need to see it resolved for it to feel real to me. And that might take some..... Wendy Hugs
|
|
|
Post by Techguy on Nov 16, 2006 14:05:23 GMT -5
Techguy; I hoped you'd add your perspective regarding the use of the military connection in this episode. My following comments are not meant to disparage your comments--I certainly have no right to do so--but did you find what LOCI did here more objectionable than what some other programs have done? And is it more exploitative than other things LOCI has done with other groups? Again, I ask out of interest and intend no slight of any kind. Without going into too much personal and painful personal details, I went through a horrific period of PTSD after my final tour of duty in the Gulf War. Thanks to effective therapy and being blessed with finding someone who understood and stood by me during the process of recovery, I was finally able to heal and get my life back in order. That's all I'm prepared to say on this subject because re-visiting the process is way too heavy a load to endure again or unload on anyone else.
I can't say if what CI did in TWAH is more objectionable to what other programs have done because CI is the only network TV show I take the time to watch and record. I tried watching SVU and CSI a couple of times and got completely turned off by the overly graphic nature of the programs and the almost obsessive preoccupation with the personal lives of the characters to the detriment of the story about the VICTIMS of the crime. I also can't comment about whether or not CI has exploited any other groups because I don't have the same personal stake in any other issues to the degree I have with the way returning service men and women were treated in TWAH.
The bottom line of why I feel angry and betrayed is this: the story of Amanda Dockerty and her fellow servicemen from Iraq were treated as a secondary sidebar to the Goren family drama and all the angsty melodramatic window dressing Warren Leight and the writers served up for us viewers to gorge on for Thanksgiving dinner. I am also offended that most of the comments about TWAH I have read on other boards are more concerned with how Mr. D'Onofrio looked and how thrilled they were to see Goren "lose control" and finally see his mother than they were about Amanda's murder and the effect on HER family.
"Losing control" is not the glamorous exciting event TWAH portrays it to be. I've been there, done that and it's not a pretty sight for those who care about someone and want to help but don't know how. That's why I have such a deep personal stake in what REALLY matters in TWAH, and why I feel I and my brothers and sisters have been betrayed and exploited in ways that are deeply personal and significant for us. All this talk of "I like to see character development!" makes me roll my eyes. Please don't be offended, I don't mean to be ugly to anyone on the board, but my own personal take: "development" implies a gradual process over time, not BLAMMO! all at once blitzkrieg's, which is what we're getting. Continuing the war imagery, a blitzkrieg of personal details and angst is exactly what we have been getting so far in Season 6. I can appreciate "character development" as much as anyone else if it is DEVELOPED over time and not crammed down my throat in choking gulps. No offense to anyone who enjoys this sort of thing, but now I wish I'd never seen Eames kidnapped or got to meet Goren's mother. All these personal details and melodrama all at once is like being thrust into a family of pushy annoying individuals who want to give you a blow-by-blow description of every bad thing that has ever happened to them. Enough already.
|
|
|
Post by Patcat on Nov 16, 2006 14:15:20 GMT -5
Techguy;
Thank you for your honest and open response. I can understand and even agree with your objections. Other shows have used the Iraqi situation for stories as well--WITHOUT A TRACE comes to mind--and I think have demonstrated far less sensitivity (and gotten greater critical praise for it, sadly.)
It reminds me of a review I read of the latest WAR OF THE WORLDS which said, "The world is destroyed so Tom Cruise's character can became a better father."
Patcat
|
|
peachybc
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 109
|
Post by peachybc on Nov 16, 2006 14:15:49 GMT -5
Why didn't Goren pull his Army experience to show that yes indeed he could relate? One of the most astute observation I've read so far! I think that would have shifted the story from Bobby goes batty to Bobby's past and personal turmoil are intertwined with the plotI noticed this omission as well and actually said something to my husband about it during the episode. But as I recall Goren and the kid were standing there, staring at each other after the "you don't know what it's like" comment. Goren hesitates, then just lets the comment go. I think it was to show Goren just wasn't up to or didn't care about setting the kid straight. Like it was too much effort. It's one more indication that Goren's not completely into his job at the moment. Momma is taking here tole, mentally, physically and emotionally. What's interesting is that emotional mess or not Goren still managed to "solve" the case (what little case was actually delt with).
|
|
effie
Detective
off chasing plot bunnies...
Posts: 264
|
Post by effie on Nov 16, 2006 14:22:07 GMT -5
For a quick chuckle, I was just leafing through the local newspaper and I happened to check the horoscopes... we know Bobby is a Leo and this just made me laugh:
Leo: Talk rather than retreat. You could be way too tired or exhausted for your own good. Fumbles and mistakes are likely to happen in this scenario. Someone might test your patience. If you need to, close your door or retreat. Tonight: Some private time.
|
|