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Post by Metella on May 2, 2007 20:03:06 GMT -5
I did like that one line very much "Arrest her" I'm sure I liked a few other lines ... I'm sure I did ..... sure.
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Post by Sirenna on May 2, 2007 20:24:44 GMT -5
Sure you're sure, Metella?
I think I remember some good acting. I think so.
Actually yes! I liked how Goren and Eames interacted with each other. They were professional yet comfortable, with the give-and-take flow that marks both their characters' partnership on-screen and their knowledge of each other as actors. For instance I liked the scene where Eames was interrogating one of the spacemen and Goren was in the room letting her lead and watching the suspect.
I know from the some of the fanatic boards out there that people are anticipating 'Endgame' as a vehicle to watch Goren portray emotion. I'm with Locifan on this one, if Goren's dad turns out to be a serial killer all for a two-minute scene of Vincent doing his thing, I'll feel cheated and I hope he will too. I give a parellel to describe what I'm trying to say by quoting one of the few lines a film critic ever wrote that I understood about the movie War of the Worlds: "The world had to end so Tom Cruise could be a good dad." Vincent doesn't need the waters to froth to show he's a fantastic actor. He needs the crux of good writing and interesting ideas to complement and enhance his level of skill.
Donnajo: very interesting take on the final scene. Now I'd like to see that part again.
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doctorj
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 92
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Post by doctorj on May 2, 2007 20:58:33 GMT -5
I have to agree with you, Techguy. "Ripped from the headlines" = BORING. As I see it, the problem with "ripped from headlines" stories is that I already KNOW where they're going to go. I know how it ends, because I read the CNN articles. Why do I need to SEE two detectives pluck out a wig and a diaper from a car trunk? The ONLY reason to produce a "ripped from headlines" story is if you have something new and interesting to say or show us. Did we get that here? Um, no. (What did Sirenna call the NASA characters... a bunch of "skirt-sniffing animals"? Yep. Not much emotional dimesion there!) In fact, I'd say this episode was nowhere near as dramatic as the original news stories. Given the number of dramatists they have writing for them over at CI, that's very, very sad. JMO. PS. Sorry it's been so long since I posted. My life got pretty hairy there for a while. Hopefully things will de-fuzz soon.
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Post by Cassie on May 2, 2007 21:26:18 GMT -5
We just got done watching it again, My hubby thought the show was awesome. He gives it an "A". He felt that Goren and Eames where their old selves, that it felt like the old days. It was a decent show from beginning to end. We both like the last scene where Ross, made the comment that Sandy was a type A personsility and Goren was quick to say.... "So am I , and so are you!!" Ha! Goren hasn't lost his sense of humor
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lodi
Rookie
Posts: 20
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Post by lodi on May 3, 2007 1:17:11 GMT -5
I really thought this was one of the duller episodes also. No interesting NASA insight, obvious outcome, and I agree with whoever wrote that the scene about the lotion was nothing short of insulting. Is the writer afraid that we won't get it? I'd rather not get it than be spoon-fed.
I certainly hope Goren wasn't sympathizing with the husband - didn't really catch the look. The episode was a little heavy on the "women are so catty and emotionally out-of-control" theme anyway - I would hate to see them play down the husband's part in the mess. Of course, the real-life event was certainly not flattering to the female gender!
I gotta say though - no offense to anyone - I thought the episode with the deaf community was just as dull, and that seemed to generate a lot of discussion here. Brother's Keeper and the one with the suicidal cop weren't bad this season. And I also watched SVU for the first time in a while last night - now THAT is bad television. How far can they take the daughter-of-rape thing? Nauseating.
Lodi
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Post by DonnaJo on May 3, 2007 6:49:32 GMT -5
I wrote the comments about the lotion scene. I'm glad to hear someone else thought that scene was pretty insulting to us CI fans. Sadly though, there are people out there who are very dense & uninformed.
I'm writing back, Lodi, because your comments reminded me of another example (nit picking, yes) of this spoon feeding. Goren points out to Eames that the murder weapon is a Diver's Knife. Then, after they view Craig's video and he claims that deep sea diving is his favorite pastime. Eames snarks, "Deep sea diving. Just him, the deep blue sea, and his DIVING KNIFE." I mean, come on. Who needed that spelled out?
Another sad reminder of a difference in the writing, for me, was the admission by the Commander that he was at the crime scene (murder of Jessica) hours before she was discovered. He even mentioned checking her vitals. In seasons past, clues that someone was at the body or crime scene prior to CSU would have been noticed by Goren, no matter how minute or obscure that clue might be. I am reminded of at least a dozen episodes. Goren's uncanny ability to see the obscure, to see what all other Detectives cannot see, is absent.
Several posters have mentioned expecting MORE out of the Goren/Eames episodes. But I say that the writers are solely to blame here, for deliberately "dumbing down" Goren's abilities. Is this to show less of a difference in detecting ability between the two teams? Can you have Goren be Goren without Logan looking like less?
I'll stop here, because that discussion is OT.
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mimi
Detective
Posts: 231
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Post by mimi on May 3, 2007 8:16:33 GMT -5
Sirenna (geez Sirenna you've been quoted a lot in this thread ) pointed out that there was some good acting. What I think makes this episode (and CI in general) better than what's on TV right now is the quality of the guest stars or the regular actors, or both. Even if I don't always agree with D'Onofrio's choice on how he portrays Goren, one of his strongest quality as an actor is to do something even if there's nothing. What I mean is I believe he sees farther than the words. The "Am I angry" scene is one the best example of this. This scene was so common in the writing and in the way it was shot, yet it worked because of how D'onofrio spun it: the tone, the face, the leaning towards Eames...everything made it a memorable scene. Erbe has a great ability to listen and catch what D'Onofrio is throwing at her. On the other hand the "Houston, we got a problem" didn't work as well. As the other scene, it was a cliché line, very common ground, Erbe wasn't able to spin it in a way to make it work. If written in the way Lovesong wrote it, that would've made another memorable scene Lovesong, send your resume to Warren Leight pronto!
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Post by deathroe on May 3, 2007 8:53:28 GMT -5
I seem to have liked it better than some. I've always felt with CI that even when it wasn't my fav. ever it was better than most things (I concur, mikeyrocks), with a certain style and rhythm that were enjoyable. Patcat, I'm very much in your camp on this--and DonnaJo, I could not agree MORE about the spelling out. They do more and more of that. Also agree that the episode was not as carefully constructed as it might have been, but at least it was trying ... ish to be classic CI. Too bad it seems to have taken so long fwiw, here are the impressions that I jotted down last night. They may overlap with others's comments: 1) I thought it was good, old-fashioned Criminal Intent. Good range of suspects. Good throwback episode (save of course for the stalker cam and music video in the teaser). Makes me nostalgic for the days when you could watch and know that, even if you don’t think it’s the best story ever, you come away satisfied by the depth as opposed to, you know, perturbed. Yes, it was over the top and quirky, but isn’t that one of the great things about classic CI? 2) But again, stalker cam :-P (I really appreciate having this exploitative idea pointed out to me by people on these boards.) 3) I thought the character of Sandy was really sad. I thought that was just a very sad idea. 4) Thinking of that Entertainment Weekly preview that I posted in Articles and Interviews the other day, I find it telling that exactly what they were griping about was that it was vintage CI, with the twists and turns. Confusing. Required some reading on the part of the viewer. God forbid that anyone should have to read or interpret anything, let alone primetime television. I concur with whomever said that SVU was more successful because it is more "dumbed down." The whole point about CI to me (as it is about the first seasons of the original) is that it has all those twists and turns.) 5) They get a booby prize though for being the only show ever in the course of human history to use “special lotion” as a plot point in TWO separate episodes (the other one being GROW). Ew. 6) What is the early (first 3 seasons) episode where there was likewise a female stalker with wigs and diapers—Goren and Eames find her stash?? 7) I got a good giggle out of “Worldweek.” Have they used that before? 8) Like the Batman comment in Brother’s Keeper, Goren’s “Do you think I’m angry?” was supposed to be cute, I think, played for the audience aware of the character’s history and of the dynamic with Eames. It pushes out of the texture of the show a little—it’s too “meta”—but I enjoyed it. Now Goren has GOT to know that he is angry … unless they are overplaying the whole “Goren knows other people so well yet does not know himself” card beyond all possible suspension of disbelief. (whoever made the comment about the fic writers over lunch ... LOVED it). 9) The irony of the “housewife” outsmarting all the “type A personalities” was very nice, I felt. With the sitcom-esque name, too (Edie Nelson). 10) “Edie” is also slightly <I> I dream of Jeannie</I> esque, no? 11) The dynamic between Goren and Ross is actually enjoyable once you get in to it. Nice little “tit for tat” “So am I—so are you”—and Eames actually appearing to try not to smile. 12) Love Rodgers. How does she pull that off year after year? She’s an icon. 13) Both Eames and Goren seemed really on and focussed. Nice. Loved Erbe’s “Houston, we have a problem,” which could have been lame and cheesy yet was not. Loved her whole contribution to the episode, and she wasn’t as grouchy as in Silencers … Goren seemed in control. That is how I prefer them to be. I miss the days when a young, cocky Goren could say “We’re supposed to be better than the people we prosecute” (or was that Logan on the mothership? But I think it was Goren.) I miss the days when the Eames-Goren dynamic was on an even keel. (Then again, I still don’t feel like all that angst from earlier in the season has been resolved and hope that it will be). 14) So Eames drinks tea sometimes? As opposed to just coffee? 15) The hidden issue in the episode seemed to be “focus, drive”—so-called “type A personalities” and what happens when they go wrong. It’s an interesting idea, although I am (again) starting to feel like they’re overplaying every case’s relation to Goren’s own life. 16) If this is the calm before the storm, I’m rather worried that the sky is going to fall in next time round. In a way I’m going to be kind of glad when this season is over for that very reason! So I guess what I'm saying is that while I concur with others about the show operating at a reduced capacity I did really like that it was a relatively traditional CI show. There is nothing like old-school CI, even just glimmers of it *s*
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Post by Summerfield on May 3, 2007 13:59:10 GMT -5
Perhaps they should have titled this episode "I Dream of Jessica"! Nelson/Nelson Healy/Hurly Jeannie/Jessica Edie, short for Eden as in Barbara? I kept waiting for Larry Hagman to make an appearance.
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Post by Techguy on May 3, 2007 15:24:45 GMT -5
I kept waiting for Larry Hagman to make an appearance. No, it has to be that other Bobby, Patrick Duffy, just so we can all wake up and find out Season 6 never really happened, it was all just a very bad dream.
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Post by addicted2vdosgoren on May 3, 2007 15:42:16 GMT -5
I 6) What is the early (first 3 seasons) episode where there was likewise a female stalker with wigs and diapers—Goren and Eames find her stash?? "Consumed" from season 3. I think Goren did say that line - maybe in "The Pardoner's Tale"? I miss that early dynamic as well. I've recently purchased DVDs of the first 3 seasons and the differences between then and now are striking in terms of quality of story, as well as the energy level of the cast. I do want CI to continue, because I love the show and I need to see what happens with Goren once mama Goren passes on (assuming that is what happens in "Endgame"). Well said. The episode wasn't great, but it was better than most this season ("Albatross" and "Privilege" were very dull to me.) And I just loved seeing Goren being more engaged and Goren-esque lol
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Post by Techguy on May 3, 2007 22:30:11 GMT -5
Bobby's failure to recognize his anger surprises me a bit. In SUITE SORROW he comments that he knew Julie's anger. I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this already, but Amy Ryan who plays Edie "Mrs. Commander" Nelson in Rocket Man also played Julie Turner in Suite Sorrow.
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Post by LOCIfan on May 4, 2007 23:22:33 GMT -5
I didn't think this was a classic Goren/Eames episode by any stretch of the imagination. It's true that Goren wasn't all angsty, but otherwise, it was an entirely boring and lame G/E episode.
What happened to the Criminal Intent? The wife was jealous. Not terribly interesting. And the steroid lotion?? I think in order to induce roid rage, someone needs to be injecting large quantities of steroids, not just rubbing it on a patch of dry skin.
There was no psychological mystery for Goren to peel away.
There wasn't even a physical mystery for Goren to solve. Goren and Eames were startlingly inactive in the investigation. Well, maybe not startlingly, because they haven't been doing much detecting this season, but come on... They just happen to find the stash of wig, diapers, other incriminating objects IN THE CAR? We're supposed to believe that a Type A, rigid planner decided to leave all that stuff in her rental car? What a windfall. They didn't figure out that the Commander had been with the dead woman before he confessed. They didn't figure out the affair between the two until the ME said they'd found his semen in her. Everything they learned about the astronaut's personalities was literally TOLD to them by the astronauts on the NASA website. And the credit card being used to buy two pairs of the same earrings for his mistress and lotion-girl. Well, that was a gimme too. If Commander didn't charge the second pair of earrings to his credit card, hmmmmmm... who else could it have been? Goren didn't observe and then deduce anything. Everything was handed to them.
Where's that great, quirky detective? Where's even an average detective?
And where was Goren when it came time to crawl into the wife's head, unravel the pathology of her criminal insecurity? Where was Goren's compassion with lotion-girl? Where was his keen eye? The eye, that in past episodes, would have had him ingeniously uncover the reality that lotion-girl was a tool, and would have used his compassion and understanding to then somehow catch the Machiavellian wife in her own web.
This was a lame, lame excuse for a G/E episode and is miles and miles away from classic CI.
Also, to those who say ripped from the headlines = boring, well I agree and disagree. When used in uncreative ways, as here. Yes, dullsville. The actual case is far more interesting.
But the way that CI has always used headlines, as a jumping off point, a place to start and then spin a psychological mystery out of, that has always been fascinating to me. The way the BTK case was used in Shibboleth is a great example of a successful ripped from the headlines episode. And this season, Weeping Willow was another example of a headline that was used to excellent effect on the show.
In fact, Weeping Willow was a high point in an otherwise disappointing season, precisely because of the fact that it so adeptly riffed on the headline it ripped from.
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Post by DonnaJo on May 5, 2007 7:39:04 GMT -5
I didn't mind so much the unrealistic use of a steroid lotion as I did the "viewers are dumb" manner that it was introduced. Sandy insists she doesn't use steroids.... camera does close up of her furiously scratching her arm.....Sandy pleads for special lotion....scratches arm again... The look that Goren gave the Commander when initially being questioned along with the publicist made it obvious that he knew they were intimate from the start. Rogers just confirmed it. At least that's what I saw. Since this was a NSA hero, perhaps it was best to wait for concrete evidence like the semen. I've decided I'm going to trust VDO's acting & am hoping this lack of detecting and obvious lack of empathy is deliberate on his part. I'm no shrink, but if we are to assume that Mom is in the very last stages of terminal cancer, then lethargy, frustration & lack of keen observation would be normal. Even if the writer's are choosing to dumb down the script, VDO may not be dumbing down his subtle portrayal of a man in emotional pain.
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Post by Jefferaldo on May 5, 2007 7:40:40 GMT -5
Bobby's failure to recognize his anger surprises me a bit. In SUITE SORROW he comments that he knew Julie's anger. I don't know if anyone else has mentioned this already, but Amy Ryan who plays Edie "Mrs. Commander" Nelson in Rocket Man also played Julie Turner in Suite Sorrow.
yes i noticed this which is why again this episode was see through -- another repeat offender.
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