Goren's Occasional B beard

[det1stgrade]

I agree w/ Observer. I've seen Bobby come off as condescending in certain instances, but only in a reactionary way. I noticed moreso that he treats people--of whatever social class/circumstance, with respect and dignity; (for instance, in "Jones" when he dances with the girl at the bar to put her at ease --and pays for the drink & dance, besides!) I think he shows a good amount of compassion for the less fortunate and/or the regular "working class stiffs."

[chief]

Hello Observer 2.

I readily admit that I am no expert on the series, but I think I know how cops think. for instance there was a completely new department being formed in a newly incorporated city in Colorado, by a chief who was a nationally acclaimed expert on policing. He insisted that all of the officers had four year college degrees. An acquaintance of mine was a member of the force and told me they were all pretty much regarded by other department's officers as "those ******* college cops". This was a few years back and many, if not most, officers are college educated now, but that attitude still persists and cops generally look at a "know it all" with disdain.

I agree with your point about the poker partners. I'll bet that the poker players are not cops, and I suspect that Goren might even describe himself in some other profession when in a game, or at the MOMA, which I am sure he visits regularly. (Not that there is anything wrong with that.) Incidentally, do you think he puts aside his abilities as a genius while playing poker. I don't think I would want to play against him myself.

Not being that well versed in the series I can't cite specific instances of when he has seemed condescending. To me it is pretty much the offhand manner in which he transmits (I almost said flaunts) his knowledge to others. Reminds me of another learned fictional detective..."elementary my dear Watson!"

[trisha]

In The Third Horseman, Eames asked Goren to promise her a margarita when the case was over. I guess that made me imagine them going for drinks at a cop bar. Eames would be welcome at a cop bar, I'm sure, and if she were to bring her seemingly smug partner, would anyone really say anything to her about it? If they did, I'm sure they wouldn't enjoy her response

I can see there being resentment over the young men and women moving quickly up the ranks by climbing an educational ladder. We actually discussed this on the other board about a year ago (Bordo88, the dead horse is calling you!) It used to be that you had to really work your way up, and maybe catch a lucky break by getting a case that was highly publicized. Now guys who have been on the job for 20 + years get passed over by people who are only a year or two out of the academy. That has to hurt.

Though Goren has been shown to have 12 years in on the job, we know that at least 4 of them have been at 1st grade with the MCS. Within 8 years, he went from the academy to MCS. A lot of cops work for 8 years and never make detective. I guess hat makes him one of those ******* college cops.

This is one of those times when I wish we knew how long Eames has been with the force, and what type of education she has

[chief]

This brings up another subject that I find interesting. I never understood why is it the practice in the NYPD to promote an officer to detective for a good collar or act of heroism. In many departments you have to take an examination, and perhaps attend additional education, in order to be promoted to detective. It would seem that the NYPD system could result in some of the detective bureau being more lucky than competent. I believe promotion from 3rd Grade to 1st is often based on longevity and/or luck. Perhaps I am wrong about this (I often am) but I am sure someone will enlighten me should that be the case.

[Patcat]

If you check out the NYPD website it has information on how police move through the ranks. My understanding is that it's a two tier system--one way is to take exams to be a sergeant, lieutenant, captain, inspector, etc., and the other is to move to detective by merit, and then up the various grades of detectives through merit.

And Chief is absolutely right about Goren's connections with Holmes. Dick Wolf, Rene Balcer and Mr. D'Onofrio have all said Sherlock Holmes is on of the primary influences on Goren's character, probably far more so than any attempt to make him based on a "real" NYPD detective.

I'm a big Holmes fan, as some of the ancient members of the board can tell you (probably sick and tired of me), and, like Goren, Holmes can be a horrible know-it-all. But what appeals to me about both characters is their devotion to justice, their use of their considerable intelligence to bring order out of chaos, and their great capacity for very hard work. Critics of Holmes and Goren rarely acknowledge that both of these detective are always gathering and cataloging knowledge.

Patcat

[Sirenna]

I don't think Goren hangs out with police other than Eames although we don't have any info that he doesn't hang out with them. It's never been shown one way or another.

I do detect a camaraderie, in your post, Chief among policemen of the same rank and background and some dissention among police who are not a like in this way. And often, NYPD Blue and LO show that various departments have their own style and don't always get along with each other.

I like to think, if Goren doesn't fit in it's because he won't compromise on certain things. In other words, he won't make himself seem less intelligent just to fit in. He won't tolerate aspersions against women, like Eames just because she's a female officer jsut to be like 'one of the boys'.

[chief]

Helo Sirenna,

Re: your last comment about women police officers trying to be "like one of the boys". I found that some women did do this, usually in the cruder ways, rough language, behavior etc. but it seemed, at least to me, that others who did not do this were more highly regarded amongst their fellow officers if the truth were to be known.

[chief]

Hello again Sirenna,

I should have included this comment on my previous. Your comment about various departments (and bureaus within departments) having their own style (and I would include rules and regulations) and not getting along with each other as shown on L&O and other shows.
The often shown controversial contacts with some state and federal agencies are, to some extent, accurate. Overcoming this often depends on the ability of the individuals to form good associations, even friendships, with people from other agencies. Something to remember is that individual departments , and members thereof, are often rated on their rate of closure among other items. No one wants to work on a case with another agency and then have them take the collar and the credit. Personally, the majority of times I worked with other agencies the credit was shared and I think that the onset of joint task forces has strengthed this. Another thing to realize is that many individuals and departments regard knowledge as power. I have seen cases lost or prolonged just because someone would not share information.

[Sirenna]

Chief:

Sorry for the postponed reply. I don't know how I missed this the first time around!

Re: your last comment about women police officers trying to be "like one of the boys". but it seemed to me, that others [ who didn't do this ] were more highly regarded amongst their fellow officers.

I would surmise it was because they were better at their job when they stayed true to themselves. After all a lot of crimes are sexually based or have a gender conflict component to them. It would help, in interrogations, or stakeouts, etc to have a women's perspective on the reasons why a crime might have taken place, no? My comment is probably very much simplified compared to the reality.

As for police departments being reluctant to collaborate with each other, sad to say but I also think as you do - that it is true. But. (isn't there always a but But wrt the Toronto police force, I've been impressed lately. They have become much more community involved and supportive and they've solved some cases recently which have required them to move among their own departments but, more significantly, among areas in the divisions communities which, normally, they would be in conflict with. i.e they would be only there to arrest a suspect or patrol or profile residents when perhaps the need to do so wasn't really there but the political push to 'get tough on crime' was.

They've solved some cases which required that they seek the involvement of other departments and other communities which is no easy feat depending on the view that community might have toward the police.

[chief]

Hello Sirenna,

Haven't been here to check much lately, press of the holiday season I guess. Your comments are very interesting. First off let me state that I have a high regard for policing in Canada. I worked in conjunction with officers in the local, provincial and RCMP forces and found that their training, attatude and professionalism were commendable so I am not surprised to hear your comments about Toronto. Sadly we had a homicide here in my area about two weeks ago and the small local police force shut out the more experienced state police investigators (with the exception of allowing them to do the extensive crime scene investigation). It was typical of what I mentioned, a fierce defense of the local turf to the detriment of the case. The prime suspect has not yet been arrested, but hope abounds. perhaps the Grand jury will indict today. As for the part about women officers, I think you have a good point.

[Observer2]

Hi, Chief,

I, too, missed this page of posts earlier on. I’ve been pretty hit-or-miss with my visits recently.

I appreciate hearing your take on Goren’s wealth of knowledge. To me, his usual style is so different from someone who is deliberately flaunting their knowledge that I wouldn’t have ‘gotten it’ that his low-key or “offhand” manner might come across that way to other cops.

On the other hand, he’s not just a college cop. He’s only been in the NYPD 12 years, but before that he was in the Army CID. He may well have come up through the first several levels in the NYPD by testing for the next rank as soon as each probation period was over. A while back I spoke with a couple of local detectives about Criminal Intent, and they talked about a former NCIS officer who was doing the same thing in a local department.

Chief, you said, “...I suspect that Goren might even describe himself in some other profession when in a game, or at the MOMA, which I am sure he visits regularly.”<br>
Is there a military/police reference for “the MOMA,” or are you talking about the Museum of Modern Art? I’m not sure why he would discuss his work with people at the museum, but if he did I wouldn’t expect him to particularly hide the fact that he’s a detective. Is there some reason you think he would?

As for the poker game, I think of that as being a group of buddies, people who know his line of work and accept him anyway – probably some have known him since before his Army days, as Luis seems to have. It was certainly my impression that the woman he was talking to when he mentioned the weekly game knew he was a cop. But your question, “...do you think he puts aside his abilities as a genius while playing poker” is another matter. I’ve thought about that quite a bit.

I don’t think he’s a true wiz at doing mental calculations (such as figuring percentages), based on the look he gave Deakins when Deakins performed a fairly impressive mental calculation that Goren didn’t even attempt (in Cherry Red). But Goren has a virtually eidetic memory, and is extremely skilled at reading people. I expect that if he played to win as much as he could, he would quickly become unwelcome at the poker table.

I also expect that, while his buddies may know that he’s unusually bright, and that he has “good instincts” about people, I doubt they are aware of how much, and how clearly, he reads people. It’s something you learn to minimize, or you don’t have very many buddies.

So my guess is that he would work at maintaining a balance between winning a reasonable amount of the time and losing a reasonable amount of the time. It’s easy enough to discard yourself out of a winning hand, or fold partway through the bidding.

Sorry to hear about the law enforcement turf war affecting the case in your area. I hope they get the guilty party off the street soon.

Observer2

[chief]

Hello Observer2, glad to see you are back. Quite a list of observations for me to comment on but I will try. I have my reservations about any experience Goren would have gained in CID or NCIS despite their abilities described in DeMille's books or the TV series. That is a personal opinion, not an overall indictment of the agencies. By MOMA I was referring to the museum. In such a location, or in most social gatherings, I (and many of my colleagues) did not advertise that I was in law enforcement. Doing so tended to bring about a slew of anti-cop stories or requests to fix tickets (pay them, like we do). I defer to your opinion regarding his poker playing, you are right about that, as well as about having friends, if he continued to win all the time he wouldn't have any poker partners. I will try to keep you posted on the outcome of the Grand jury and the case in general. I would not class it so much as a "turf war" as the attempt by a small department trying to defend its reputation to the residents, "We don't need no steenking staties" so to speak. I believe that is a mistake. The SP have personnel much more experienced at homicide investigation than does a department that has had one other such event in 14 or so years.

[KMC]

I agree that any condesension on Bobby's part is generally aimed at someone who deserves it...never at the "innocent"...so to speak. And I've noticed that people who don't like Goren refer to his being "all knowing". What they don't seem to pick up on is that all that knowledge is acquired...he's always checking reference works...his desk is usually stacked with books...he mentions a trip to the law library in one early episode. And in one of the DVD interviews it was stated that one of his best investigative tools is his library card. He strikes me as someone who loves to read...and to research anything that catches his eye or his imagination...and he remembers what he reads. And think about it...given what we know of his childhood and youth...which is not that much...still...disturbed mother...father who deserts...I'd be willing to bet he spent a lot of time in own head...with a book for company.

Unlike the other 2 series...we haven't been shown really anything of Goren or Eames off the clock...so to speak. They may very well go to the local cop hangout after work...and Bobby can be very charming and personable when he wants to be...so I don't have any problem with the idea of his hanging out...occasionally...with "the guys". I suspect the bent cop was right...he probably does have lots of hobbies and interests that he pursues...and probably friends and buddies he pursues them with. I've noticed that fan fiction tends to portray him as a tormented loner...but I don't get that at all from him.

To return to the start of this thread...his permanent 5 o'clock shadow...I know that it's been stated that it's supposed to show his dedication to work....but I don't buy that. He's almost invariably well turned out...pressed suit...shirt and tie...so the haven't time to shave thing just doesn't work...at least for me. My own little theory...it's his little bit of rebellion...remember...when we meet his friend Lewis...he remarks about Bobby that he can't get used to seeing him in a suit. So presumably there's been a time where Bobby didn't wear suits much..if at all. Probably not while he was in narcotics...and I see him as a jeans and tee-shirt kinda guy off duty. But when he joined the Major Case squad...he either realized...or it had been made clear to him...that a suit and tie was manditory...and considering some the people they encounter...a more casual look would not be appropriate. And lets face facts...he looks impressive in a suit...and not a little formidable....which he's used to his advantage. Det. Goren may wear a suit...but the stubble may be "Bobby's" way of asserting himself. Or I may be wrong...it's just a thought.

[chief]

Good Post KMC. For all of the posting on this (much more than I thought it would raise) you have possibly struck on the answer. Maybe Bobby is "a wild and crazy guy" after all.

chief

[MelTex]

Maybe you're right Cheif. Lewis pionted to a wrecked car and asked Bobby if it brought back any memories. Maybe in his wilder days, Bobby raced fast cars and wore more jeans and tee-shirts.

As for the stubble, frankley, I've been noticing in recent episodes that Goren is clean shaven. Which, to my eye, makes him look more pudgy around the cheeks and face, than when he had the stubble. I guess Goren found time to shave before work, while getting his perfectly pressed suits and always coordinating ties.

I saw in an interview with D'Onofrio, where he said, Goren was the kind of guy you'd have a drink with, but you wouldn't want to live with. I guess he's alluding to the fact that from his lonely childhood, Goren learned to live in his head most of the time. And relationships, like plants, require fresh air and sunshine. This is probably why he dates, but never for a long period of time. And he seems to be able to remain friends with the women after they conclude their dating.

I think Goren has friends, and goes to the cop bars with Lewis for drinks and such. I just think he also prefers to go to the library and read, or stay at home a lot as well...so he can pore over his psychopathy books and the Smithsonian. All of his ever-expanding and seemingly random knowledge is just the result of his library card being his greatest weapon.