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Post by Patcat on Feb 2, 2005 16:21:30 GMT -5
Well, I tend to think that Goren's character is neither as haphazard or as well planned as some people think. By that, I mean that I believe there's a general outline about Goren's character and what he's going through, and that the person who controls it the most is Rene Balcer, followed by Vincent D'Onofrio, followed by Dick Wolff. At the same time, I think they've all given themselves plenty of room and flexibility to try things like the Does Nicole Live or Die? the latter was a gutsy move--I didn't particularly like it, but I admire them for trying it.
I don't think Balcer, D'Onofrio and company are trying to make ART--they're doing the best they can to make an entertaining and thoughtful show. And occasionally, as often occurs with people doing their best, they come up with art. (It's interesting that people trying to make ART often make pretentious and boring stuff, while people just trying to do their best come up with ART. I submit AN AMERICAN IN PARIS (very arty) and SINGIN' IN THE RAIN (very entertaining and great art) as examples. Or Leonard Bernstein's symphonies as opposed to his musical theater works.)
Patcat
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MelTex
Detective
"I want a Jonny 7 all-in-one gun..."
Posts: 336
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Post by MelTex on Feb 2, 2005 20:28:14 GMT -5
I am also one for the mix. Goren's antics the first 2 years were fascinating and made the show for me. Vincent was brilliant, balancing between the bumbling baitor and the steely, investigator. But I wanted more. ;D Great description Velocity. I've never heard it put quite that way about Goren's tactics, although its extremely correct! Its all in how Goren is able to off-center his prey, before he pounces on some miniscule piece of evidence uttered by said suspect--that will ultimatly land said suspect in jail. Sometimes he comes off as all-knowing or preternaturally gifted--but one has to remember, Goren is a watcher and researcher. His skills of deduction are as legendary as his eccentricities. And the way VDO portrays his wonderful uniqueness, is what brought many of us (me extrememly included) to the show. Awesomely said Pat, Goren is the underlying "great mystery of CI." And his mystery, woven seemlessly into the story lines, plots and crime-solving of the show--is why CI is no. 2 in my top 5 favorites that I make damn sure I at least have a VCR timer set for--if I can't be there to watch it. Man, I hope I didn't just come off sounding like a complete dork. I try to keep myself at "mild-Dork" most of the time...alas, it's a hard balance...I know. *big grin*
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Post by Marie on Feb 3, 2005 8:21:00 GMT -5
Well, I tend to think that Goren's character is neither as haphazard or as well planned as some people think. By that, I mean that I believe there's a general outline about Goren's character and what he's going through, and that the person who controls it the most is Rene Balcer, followed by Vincent D'Onofrio, followed by Dick Wolff. At the same time, I think they've all given themselves plenty of room and flexibility to try things.... I think that too. Yes, there's some structure to it, but it's not a straight-jacket; he's still able to "breathe", chuckle! And speaking as an artist, I also loved your observations regarding art; ie: that it's usually better when it just "happens" as opposed to it being planned from the start - as that can often lead to something pretentious. Do you believe that when fans get excited over Goren's pathology and submit posts about it online, that they're often read by the show's writers - who in turn, look upon it as feedback which thus influences what they'll write in the future - for it ultimately being viewed as positive and ergo in support of a current direction they've chosen to take? Do you feel that to the extent Goren's pathology is discussed here, it consequently works against seeing what you'd prefer to see..? For encouraging more of it, if indeed it does. And therefore, are you presently unhappy now with the amount of posts delving into Goren's pathology, for reasons above, and prefer that we pull it back and keep discussions within parameters you're more comfortable with? As I'm more than willing to hear & consider your views and opinions! Reading them is half the fun! But speaking for myself, if I'm correctly reading inbetween the lines of your statements, it's my contention/opinion that what you'd really like, is for people to stop doing anything that could potentially ruin the show you love, as you love to see it. Chuckle! Which is totally fair! You've every right to want your show to remain as you've always loved it! And every right to express as much, here! No one "owns" the Forum or the internet. I'm just letting you know by way of my response, that while I truly respect that, sadly, from what I imagine to be your perspective, it won't bear any influence on what I might write in the future, myself. So I hope the show, as you love it, never changes. But I hope the show I'm getting, meanwhile, continues to entertain ME. Smile.
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Post by Techguy on Feb 3, 2005 9:43:27 GMT -5
Techguy: Do you believe that when fans get excited over Goren's pathology and submit posts about it online, that they're often read by the show's writers - who in turn, look upon it as feedback which thus influences what they'll write in the future - for it ultimately being viewed as positive and ergo in support of a current direction they've chosen to take? Do you feel that to the extent Goren's pathology is discussed here, it consequently works against seeing what you'd prefer to see..? For encouraging more of it, if indeed it does. And therefore, are you presently unhappy now with the amount of posts delving into Goren's pathology, for reasons above, and prefer that we pull it back and keep discussions within parameters you're more comfortable with? Marie,
My response to your first question is, I am not 100% certain at this point if the CI writers and creative minds behind the show are looking at the fan board posts and directing story lines according to the comments made online. What I speculated about was, I expressed concern that CI and the Det. Goren character MIGHT be shaped and influenced to such a degree by relying so heavily on fan feedback IF this is indeed taking place. I am somewhat concerned, perhaps in the wake of the Nicole lives or dies fan vote, that the CI honchos are trying to provide nuances and details to CI and the Goren character to appeal to a majority of fans. I likened the process to the creation of a Frankenstein monster, taking bits and pieces here and there to try to satisfy or appease the majority of fans by providing elements that will appeal to a broad spectrum of the CI fan base. I speculated about this issue because I sense the drastic differences in Goren's personality between playful and upbeat to moody and brooding might be a result of tinkering with story lines based on fan online feedback. And like the Frankenstein story, what we could end up with are the fans/townsfolk takiing torches in hand to storm the CI laboratory--not a pretty sight, especially with those tempting (to some) housewives waiting in the wings.
As for your second question, I welcome and enjoy posting and reading posts by others about Goren's psyche and psychology. I in no way suggest or wish for anyone to hold back discussing whatever he or she finds fascinating about CI. Far be it for me to put a muzzle on anyone's desire for expression. My one caveat in all this goes back to what I said earlier--what I am concerned about is the CI PTB taking this varied soup of fan opinions and then trying to come up with stories and variations on the Goren character so as to try to please as many fans as possible. My personal preference is for hints and suggestions about Goren's past, rather than dwelling on the depths of his psyche so much that these elements take over the dynamics of an episode. And personally, I'd also much rather the writers risk controversy than trying to be all things to all fans. Otherwise, the end result could be that NO ONE will be satisfied, or at the very least, a substantial segment of fans might get turned off by the roller coaster ride of "what will Goren be like this week."
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Post by Marie on Feb 3, 2005 12:06:26 GMT -5
Marie,
My response to your first question is, I am not 100% certain at this point if the CI writers and creative minds behind the show are looking at the fan board posts and directing story lines according to the comments made online....... I speculated about this issue because I sense the drastic differences in Goren's personality between playful and upbeat to moody and brooding might be a result of tinkering with story lines based on fan online feedback. Ah! Ok! Thanks for clarifying! I wasn't entirely sure that I'd understood you, chuckle; so I thought I'd ask - as opposed to just assuming I'd taken your meaning correctly! Ahhh.. so you're just a bit worried about a worse case "Frankenstein" scenario happening, then. Gotcha! I too, don't want them to toss in SO much, that all you "see" then, is where they've "tried" to attach the various arms, legs, head, feet to Det. Goren (so to speak; chuckle!) I mean, you want to see the dress, not where they've stitched it together, eh? [/color] [/quote] I take your reasoning. But it's given me pause now to wonder if perhaps the direction we're seeing (Goren in season 4) isn't maybe a case of the writers doing just that...? Risking a controvery...? As it's certainly got all us chatting, eh! Chuckle! Maybe the truth of it lies somewhere in the middle? They're partly taking note of what fans are saying, but at the same time, they're also doing what they like, in the process? Hmm! I guess we'll never know until they do another one of those cast interview thingy's on a DVD, and tell us! LOL! I don't know either, how much influence fans have on the storylines. I do know they know we're out here, chatting about Criminal Intent. And they did do that Nicole "Lives or Dies? thingy. Maybe that was just them flying the idea past us..? Because in truth, they didn't know for sure what they wanted to do, themselves? Or maybe it was just a publicity stunt? They always KNEW they were going to bring her back, shot the alternate ending, and used the fact they had, to better compete with whatever else the competetion had running? I know that Networks always hope you'll at least stick with them, after your particular show is done - and not switch over to CBS or ABC etc. And consequently place a strong program in a certain slot hoping it'll serve double-duty as a lead-in to the next one in their line up. But again, it's anyone's guess out here on the internet. Chuckle!! And I'm glad to hear you say that you're open to people posting whatever they want, and never meant to suggest they shouldn't! Thank-you for your tolerance. It helps to encourage an open, free-flowing Forum where everyone gets a chance to chat about their interests!
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Post by Techguy on Feb 3, 2005 15:48:40 GMT -5
A-OK Marie.
Maybe the CI honchos will make some new revelations *if and when* the Season 2 DVD set is released. I know many posters on this board and others I visit are of the opinion that S2 is the best so far. I certainly think S2 has some of the best CI episodes--here I go singing the praises of "Cherry Red" again--so the extra bonus features on the S2 DVDs could and should shed some light on what has been going on in the evolution of CI in general and the Det. Goren character in particular.
However--and here is another caveat--I do hope everything isn't spelled out for us with most if not all questions answered. I like some mystery to remain so we as viewers can continue to speculate and fill in the blanks without being spoon fed the entire CI/Goren menu. As Patcat noted, "the great mystery at the heart of LOCI is Robert Goren." The mystery and uncertainty about exactly what it is that makes him the way he is--this is the part of the charm of CI and Goren that intrigues me the most. Tidbits of information whet the appetite for more, but I prefer not to have all the i's dotted and t's crossed. When Vincent D'Onofrio is done with Goren, and when LOCI leaves the airwaves, I want to be left wanting more so my imagination can feed my appetite.
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Post by LOCIfan on Feb 3, 2005 16:18:19 GMT -5
Interesting discussion! As to whether or not the writers/actors on LOCI read the fan boards, I think Balcer has stated in interviews that he does check them out every once in a while. Whether or not what's posted influences the direction of the characters and the show -- good question! Obviously fan input determined whether or not Nicole would live or die (unless the whole thing was a hoax).
But I'd imagine TPTB must take what fans write online with a grain of salt. LOCI has a regular audience of around 10,000,000 viewers, the vast majority of whom don't post online about the show. Those who do seem to be the hard-core fans of D'Onofrio and/or the show itself (me included) AND those with time and internet access (me again included). We represent a vocal minority among the show's regular viewers.
The internet may be the quickest and best way for the show's creative team to take the pulse of a certain segment of the show's fans. But most of the fans seem to constitute a "silent majority".
Best, LOCIfan
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Post by Marie on Feb 3, 2005 16:36:57 GMT -5
A-OK Marie. However--and here is another caveat--I do hope everything isn't spelled out for us with most if not all questions answered. I like some mystery to remain so we as viewers can continue to speculate and fill in the blanks without being spoon fed the entire CI/Goren menu. As Patcat noted, "the great mystery at the heart of LOCI is Robert Goren." The mystery and uncertainty about exactly what it is that makes him the way he is--this is the part of the charm of CI and Goren that intrigues me the most. Tidbits of information whet the appetite for more, but I prefer not to have all the i's dotted and t's crossed. When Vincent D'Onofrio is done with Goren, and when LOCI leaves the airwaves, I want to be left wanting more so my imagination can feed my appetite. I don't want either Rene Balcer or Vincent D'Onofrio to give us ALL the pieces, either. I want the series to go go to bed without every getting that final, last piece of the puzzle. But I do like "playing" with the pieces they give me! As it's my own imagination moving them around, you know? And the picture I get changes from day to day. Even though I'm still basically working with the same ones; chuckle! But then I'm an artist. I can see a blank piece of paper and imagine 1,000 different things appearing upon it. So the more clues "I" get, the more pictures I can make - not less! But that's me.
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Post by Patcat on Feb 3, 2005 17:05:36 GMT -5
Sometimes what's great about a character is what is left out. If Sir Arthur Conan Doyle had told readers everything about Sherlock Holmes, I'm convinced Holmes wouldn't be remembered at all. So, part of me hopes that Goren remains a mystery.
Another part of me wants to see him resolve all of his issues, find a nice girl (not necessarily Alex, but hey, she's available), have his 2.5 kids, a nice house, and a nice muscle car to work on in the yard (g)
Patcat (in the middle of the road, again, where she can be hit by cars going in both directions)
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MelTex
Detective
"I want a Jonny 7 all-in-one gun..."
Posts: 336
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Post by MelTex on Feb 3, 2005 23:22:39 GMT -5
Sometimes what's great about a character is what is left out. If Sir Arthur Conan Doyle had told readers everything about Sherlock Holmes, I'm convinced Holmes wouldn't be remembered at all. So, part of me hopes that Goren remains a mystery. Another part of me wants to see him resolve all of his issues, find a nice girl (not necessarily Alex, but hey, she's available), have his 2.5 kids, a nice house, and a nice muscle car to work on in the yard (g) Patcat (in the middle of the road, again, where she can be hit by cars going in both directions) I agree. If the mystery is resolved, then a large and intriguing part of CI will be washed away--leaving only "Robert Goren...This is Your Life" or someother nonsense. And yea, after the "Nicole-Live or Die" vote, I'm pretty sure Balcer surfs the forums to see where the fans are swaying towards. Does it have a bearing on what he's gonna write for Goren's character in future eps...nah I think not. Andeven in the end, I don't think I want all of Goren's mystery to be resolved. I'd like to think that he and Eames will continue to solve cases, on into their retirement years--when they can solve cases of bingo fraud, suspicious nursing-home deaths and ...the all important..case of the stolen dentures!! Goren's not the "ride off into the sunset" kinda guy. He'd keep working. *dodges Pat in the middle of the road, flys off the shoulder into a ditch*
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Post by twilight on Feb 4, 2005 23:16:08 GMT -5
A while ago I was reading an interview with Sam Waterston. He said that one of the things that drew him to Law & Order as a show was "its indifference towards its heroes." In other words, the show doesn't care what problems they have. It doesn't bother telling you about their relationship crises or their emotional troubles or any of that sort of thing. All that matters is that they show up ready for work.
Law & Order: Criminal Intent has always been the Law & Order series that comes closest to the hearts and minds of its leads. We know far more about Goren, specifically, than we do about any of the other detectives (or prosecutors) in the series.
Now, so far, I don't mind this. In fact, I rather like it. D'Onofrio does a spectacular job bringing Goren to life and making him constantly interesting and entertaining. This makes it easier to truly CARE about him as a character and adds to the show.
If moody Goren translates into melodrama, however, I'm not going to be happy with it at all. I like Law & Order precisely because it avoids melodrama and sticks to having intriguing stories that I'd say --- at the risk of sounding rather pompous --- have a great deal of relevance to issues that are important today. This is also true, to a lesser degree, of Criminal Intent.
I like watching "The Bobby Goren Show." But I also like a good story. It's got to be a balance, and it's a balance that I think would be totally messed with were the writers to take Goren in a direction that'll end up smacking of melodrama.
I also like seeing D'Onofrio show us Goren's dark side. He's a fabulous actor --- and I'm a sucker for seeing intense emotion on screen. The thing is...
...Criminal Intent is a 45 minute show.
There's not enough time for there to be a story AND an in-depth exploration of Bobby's personal issues. When they try to throw the two together the result is that both aspects of the show get short-changed. And that's precisely the sort of thing that worries me, because I think that poorly done, incomplete character development --- especially in a "darker" direction --- can only mean one thing: melodrama!
Now, I've just said a heck of a lot without really taking one side or the other, which is probably kind of irritating to anyone who has bothered to read this far (sorry about that!)
Nevertheless, the best I can do to wrap up is to say that I'd like to see Goren get moody --- up to a point. The only way to go beyond what we've already seen would be to essentially scrap the story in favor of episodes centered solely on Goren's psychology. Otherwise, the writers are going to end up with a total mishmosh and fail at both things they are attempting to do (i.e. telling a story, and presenting us with Bobby's problems.)
Criminal Intent doesn't have to be "indifferent" to Goren. He's a great character, and I've come to really care about him (wow, I sound like a dork now!) And there's no reason why he need be cheerful all of the time, either.
They've just got to watch that they strike a balance between exploring Goren's psyche and telling the story, because the latter is what Law & Order's always been about!
(Sorry for the long, rambling nature of this post, incidentially. I kept changing my mind as I wrote it, which I suppose really goes to show how difficult it was for me to decide on what I would rather see in the show!)
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MelTex
Detective
"I want a Jonny 7 all-in-one gun..."
Posts: 336
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Post by MelTex on Feb 7, 2005 13:19:41 GMT -5
A while ago I was reading an interview with Sam Waterston. He said that one of the things that drew him to Law & Order as a show was "its indifference towards its heroes." In other words, the show doesn't care what problems they have. It doesn't bother telling you about their relationship crises or their emotional troubles or any of that sort of thing. All that matters is that they show up ready for work. Law & Order: Criminal Intent has always been the Law & Order series that comes closest to the hearts and minds of its leads. We know far more about Goren, specifically, than we do about any of the other detectives (or prosecutors) in the series. Great post Twilight! And what Waterston said is very appropriate to the L&O universe. Of all the cop/crime dramas on TV, the L&O fanchise has stuck to the crimes and the solving and prosecution of those crimes. Even CSI, Without a Trace and Cold Case...along with the other crime dramas -- have taken large amounts of time out of episodes to givee background or personal issues time in the light. Criminal Intent has give more personal info on Goren (at least) than the mothership's characters. They've sprinkled in info on Briscoe and Logan and Green, even McCoy and some of his assitants. But I think, by far, SVU has given more to the personal sides of it's main characters ( namely Benson and Stabler) than any other L&O. Which is OK for THAT show, its more shock-value cases are bound to have more affect on the detectives' personalities and they wanted to show that. Ex: we actually know more about Benson and Stablers home lives, history ect...than we do about Eames and even Goren. They take more time out of the episode to divote to Stabler's family, Bensons history ect...than CI does. And , that is why I like having the option to watch the awesome psychopathy of criminals led into their motives and minds by the wonderful Det. Goren. Or, if I want more melodramatic twist to the police drama-- with the jaw-dropping story lines of sexually motivated crimes and the poinant, tear-jerker stories of their victims... I can watch SVU. Choices are good. I guess thats why ht L&O unverse is getting so diversified. There is a L&O out there for everyone! *snerk* ( sometimes I secretly wish CI was longer than 45 min. I mean, sometimes I really want to know what's going on with Goren after he walks off alone after an exhausting case. Oh well, guess thats what fan fictions are good for! LOL!)
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Post by NicoleMarie on Feb 8, 2005 2:17:41 GMT -5
Thumbs down on a moody Goren. Way down!
I don't care who has decided to make Goren moody. All I can say is I don't like it. There are a million other directions to go instead of "the dark side". That is very disconcerting to read that. The only place really left to go in the dark side is the bottom where Goren would self-destruct. I cannot imagine the reasoning behind Goren self-destructing, unless there will be a light at the end of the tunnel but, I don't see that light and haven't for a year now.
I am one of the ones who hated "Semi'. I prefer the old Goren from seasons 1 & 2. I wonder what has changed. We can speculate all we want but will not know for sure. Maybe the writers are trying to please people who want a multi-layered, melodramtic Goren. I hope not.
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Post by Marie on Feb 8, 2005 5:09:04 GMT -5
Thumbs down on a moody Goren. Way down! I don't care who has decided to make Goren moody. All I can say is I don't like it. There are a million other directions to go instead of "the dark side". That is very disconcerting to read that. The only place really left to go in the dark side is the bottom where Goren would self-destruct. I cannot imagine the reasoning behind Goren self-destructing, unless there will be a light at the end of the tunnel but, I don't see that light and haven't for a year now. I am one of the ones who hated "Semi'. I prefer the old Goren from seasons 1 & 2. I wonder what has changed. We can speculate all we want but will not know for sure. Maybe the writers are trying to please people who want a multi-layered, melodramtic Goren. I hope not. Really..? You disliked "Semi-Detached?" Oh that's a shame; since it means you sat there unable to enjoy the premier episode of season 4; which of course sucks - as fans wait all summer for their shows to start-up again with new ep's..! I understand why you prefer the old version of Det. Goren, though. I loved that Bobby, too! And to the extent I also enjoy this version, owes to subjectivity or it being one's cup of tea? Chuckle; I guess either will do to account for it! The only aspect of that earlier Bobby which I'd disliked - but only a little bit so, was the trace of smug arrogance I thought I could detect in him, from time to time. One can and people do, debate what he may think of himself, but outwardly he's always given the impression at least, of being well aware of his own self-worth. Which occationally seemed to come across as perhaps a wee bit too much pride? I dare say that's one of the reason "A Person of Interest" appealed so much to me, personally. Oh I'm not saying I think Bobby had it coming...good GOD no! No one has that kind of cruelty coming. But "if" he'd needed someone to "take the piss" out of him a bit (English slang term - in case anyone's puzzled) I dare it was taken out in that ep, by Nicole Wallace! Leading to immediate empathy for him now, as one's sympathy is engaged in the wake of her success; albeit a temporary one. And I liked how the writers/actor managed to convey the duality of things, for juxaposing an earlier scene with the dead-beat dad - "You bastard.. you BASTARD!" with another scene later on in a dimly lit room: "she got me... she got me good". As I liked how it "resonated", for imagining on some level, he had been taken down a peg - just a bit. That aside, I never took issue nor found any fault with the old Bobby! The above never served to make me like him any less - after all, there or not, it's such a small aspect of his over-all character; chuckle! But as I note imperfections in old Bobby and make allowances for them, so too do I allow for things seen in "moody" Goren. Does that any sense? LOL! I know what I mean, unsure if I'm conveying it; chuckle! I guess I'm saying I can like and enjoy both versions, for cutting them equal amounts of slack. Happy or sad, I adore Det. Goren. As I can't think of any other character I like to watch as much, whatever they're doing with him on the show. Mind you, it's early days yet! I could be in denial; chuckle! It could turn out quite horribily in the end. But I'll hold onto my faith it won't until I'm forced to face the reality of that. Note: former Buffy the Vampire Slayer fan - and when they went off the rails in the final season 7, BOY did I ever B***h online!! LOL! Not that I'm remotely suggesting I think that's what you're doing! I'm just owning to have done it, myself. And therefore why, whenever I encounter someone merely lamenting a change - which is all I see you doing, the memory of season 7 is more than sufficient to remind me of days when I was equally as displeased with what I was seeing. Here lies therefore my ability to "empathize" with you!
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MelTex
Detective
"I want a Jonny 7 all-in-one gun..."
Posts: 336
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Post by MelTex on Feb 8, 2005 10:33:24 GMT -5
Thumbs down on a moody Goren. Way down! I don't care who has decided to make Goren moody. All I can say is I don't like it. There are a million other directions to go instead of "the dark side". That is very disconcerting to read that. The only place really left to go in the dark side is the bottom where Goren would self-destruct. I cannot imagine the reasoning behind Goren self-destructing, unless there will be a light at the end of the tunnel but, I don't see that light and haven't for a year now. Yea, I see what your saying Nicole, and if they are planning for Goren to continue ina down-ward spiral -- the only place to end up is crash and burn at the bottom. No one wants to see that happen to Bobby or the show. Actually, COLLECTIVE was a glimpse (for me) back to the "Old Bobby", with him playing in the toy shop, trying to infiltrate the vamp-club, pulling the rug out from under Dorian in front of all his cohorts and such. From what I've read so far about STRESS POSITIONS, its gonna be a good one as well, so maybe they're not going to go to the "dark side" of Goren so much right now in the season. Sweeps is coming up, they're going to want to really entice the veiwers in...ex: Noth returning with Logan.
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