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Post by NicoleMarie on Feb 8, 2005 11:41:35 GMT -5
Really..? You disliked "Semi-Detached?" Oh that's a shame; since it means you sat there unable to enjoy the premier episode of season 4; which of course sucks - as fans wait all summer for their shows to start-up again with new ep's..! Yes I did hate it! I remember watching it thinking "What the hell?!!" hehehehe I understand why you prefer the old version of Det. Goren, though. I loved that Bobby, too! And to the extent I also enjoy this version, owes to subjectivity or it being one's cup of tea? Chuckle; I guess either will do to account for it! I don't like this Goren. LOL! All of his spark is gone. And I'm not interested in diving inside Goren's head. I want him to solve crime crimes! The only aspect of that earlier Bobby which I'd disliked - but only a little bit so, was the trace of smug arrogance I thought I could detect in him, from time to time. One can and people do, debate what he may think of himself, but outwardly he's always given the impression at least, of being well aware of his own self-worth. Which occationally seemed to come across as perhaps a wee bit too much pride? I liked the cocky Goren! Some people like to see him get knocked off his stoop but I don't like that stuff. I guess I just miss the simplicity CI once had. I don't wanna watch poor, sad Goren have a meltdown or walk around zombie-like with his tail between his legs. Not to say I want Goren infallible or Superhuman Goren! I just want him to pick his head and pick his feet up and wake up! I dare say that's one of the reason "A Person of Interest" appealed so much to me, personally. Oh I'm not saying I think Bobby had it coming...good GOD no! No one has that kind of cruelty coming. But "if" he'd needed someone to "take the piss" out of him a bit (English slang term - in case anyone's puzzled) I dare it was taken out in that ep, by Nicole Wallace! UGH. Wallace. I don't enjoy the cat and mouse games those two play with each other. Just solve the crime already! Move on! I'm guess just so darned impatient! Leading to immediate empathy for him now, as one's sympathy is engaged in the wake of her success; albeit a temporary one. And I liked how the writers/actor managed to convey the duality of things, for juxaposing an earlier scene with the dead-beat dad - "You bastard.. you BASTARD!" with another scene later on in a dimly lit room: "she got me... she got me good". As I liked how it "resonated", for imagining on some level, he had been taken down a peg - just a bit. Haha. I didn't like that. It was so unnecessary to me. All of that added melodrama. But that show was too silly to me. You could see Goren was walking into a set up, that he was gonna get tripped up. That is the fault I find with that particluar show. And yes, Nicole got one over on him. Was it really necessary for Goren to mope and punch the wall? He's been tricked by perps before. But instead of crumbling or sticking his thumb up his butt, he went into overdrive to finally nail the perp. Now I find myself thinking "Catch them Goren, stop moping! You got more brains than that!" hehehe Does that any sense? LOL! I know what I mean, unsure if I'm conveying it; chuckle! Yes it does! I just hope I make sense too! Mind you, it's early days yet! I could be in denial; chuckle! It could turn out quite horribily in the end. But I'll hold onto my faith it won't until I'm forced to face the reality of that. Note: former Buffy the Vampire Slayer fan - and when they went off the rails in the final season 7, BOY did I ever B***h online!! LOL! Not that I'm remotely suggesting I think that's what you're doing! I'm just owning to have done it, myself. And therefore why, whenever I encounter someone merely lamenting a change - which is all I see you doing, the memory of season 7 is more than sufficient to remind me of days when I was equally as displeased with what I was seeing. Here lies therefore my ability to "empathize" with you! hehehehe Lamenting...I like that! I guess I'm just worried too. I can't help but wonder what's going to happen. I can B***h and moan all I want, we all can, but, ultimately, the writers/actors will do what they want. I certainly don't want to sound like I am B***hing, that's not my intent. I guess I'm just worried and weary. I'm looking for that light at the end of tunnel. I'm hopeful but, at this point, I don't have the same amount of faith that you do. I am a person who looks to the bright side. though it may not seem I am looking, I really am! hehehe D'Onofrio has a penchant for dying in his films. That thought is in the back of my head too. And people have written about Goren's iminent melt down. I cannot imagine the reasons for that to happen. What purpose would it serve? (For removing D'Onofrio from CI when his contract his up, perhaps?) Oh, I hope they think of another way. I would feel all my time watching this show and getting attached to this character would be wasted. Of course, that is JMHO. Others may actually like that idea or make more sense out of it than I can.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Feb 8, 2005 11:55:58 GMT -5
Yea, I see what your saying Nicole, and if they are planning for Goren to continue ina down-ward spiral -- the only place to end up is crash and burn at the bottom. No one wants to see that happen to Bobby or the show. Sometimes I think I'm either just a worry wart or just too paranoid about CI. Actually, COLLECTIVE was a glimpse (for me) back to the "Old Bobby", with him playing in the toy shop, trying to infiltrate the vamp-club, pulling the rug out from under Dorian in front of all his cohorts and such. Yes, it was nice to see Goren spouting out some old "piss and vinegar"!!! From what I've read so far about STRESS POSITIONS, its gonna be a good one as well, so maybe they're not going to go to the "dark side" of Goren so much right now in the season. Sweeps is coming up, they're going to want to really entice the veiwers in...ex: Noth returning with Logan. UGH. Logan. I loved the original L&O, when it first started but, I hated Logan. In fact, I didn't care for the changes made when they brought on the female ADAs. GRR! And damn, do I miss Lenny! Anyway, I was quite glad when Logan finally went to the slammer. Damn, him being on CI must mean he got out! Does Goren really need Logan to help him solve a crime? I think not! Ok, I'm being a brat now. hehehehe
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Post by Techguy on Feb 8, 2005 12:28:17 GMT -5
My concern about the descent into Det. Goren's "dark side" is similar to NICOLEMARIE'S--once you start the descent, when does it stop? Or does it? I can accept occasional displays of Goren disgust, anger, regret, etc. so long as the integrity of the story is maintained. No melodrama/soap please--I don't watch CI to chart Goren's recovery from childhood emotional traumas--I watch because I delight in seeing him get the better of nasty perps who have committed horrible crimes.
Which brings me to the arrogance and smugness Det. Goren has displayed on occasion. Sure, I admit I get off on seeing him play with the minds of diabolical criminals who think they have gotten away with something. One of the best examples of this smug arrogance is how Goren took over the hot red sports car in "Cherry Red"--stop me if I'm boring, but this episode is etched in my memory. Goren goes after the perp in the one way that is absolutely guaranteed to mess with the perp's psyche--by getting in the car first and denying the perp the pleasure of that experience. Is this cocky and arrogant on Goren's part? Absolutely. But what makes this scene work is that Goren and only Goren could get away with such audacity. It is a splendid scene in a fantastic episode.
And as for the cat and mouse games between Det. Goren and Nicole Wallace--apologies to anyone who wants this storyline to continue. But for me, the game has been played out and I just can't see how else she can get under Goren's skin without Goren and CI getting swallowed up in a soap/melodrama sinkhole. I cringe at the prospect of her next appearance, and wonder aloud what can the CI writers have in store for Goren and for CI viewers when this takes place. Not a pretty sight.
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Post by Patcat on Feb 8, 2005 14:42:29 GMT -5
For me, the balance between getting in Goren's head and the crimes is just fine. While I enjoy episodes tha texplore Goren's psyche (and let D'Onofrio give some splendid performance), I, like Techguy, don't want every mystery about Goren solved. And I think the Nicole Wallace story line is played out, however, I want a more satisfying end than just having Goren blow her away.
Eames' blowing her away is another matter.
Patcat
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MelTex
Detective
"I want a Jonny 7 all-in-one gun..."
Posts: 336
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Post by MelTex on Feb 8, 2005 16:47:26 GMT -5
No, Goren doesn't need Logan to solve a case, but Logan's GF gets involved in this case, so thats why he's back. To my knowledge, Logan wasn't in the slam, he punched out a politician and got demoted off to Staten Island. At least, I think...I could have missed something, I have slept since then. *grin*
I liked Logan, he kicked ass and wasn't afraid to do it. LOVED Lennie...( will miss Jerry very much)
"Piss and vinegar"? There's a new descriptive phrase about Goren I havn't heard! *Laugh* Thats great, thanks for that new one Nicolemarie!
I seriously HATE that I haven't seen CHERRY RED *sniffle*, Techguy, but I know what you're saying about it being fun to watch Goren "pull the rug out from under them, with a smug grin on his face". I've always contended that even with his sometimes soft-spoken and off-kilter antics, there is an ego somewhere under there in Goren. He's good and he knows it. A little cockyness is to be expected, though getting knocked off his stoop is also necessary. He's human, not superman, like you said Nicolemarie...so to prove the point, the writers had to create a foil for him, someone who "Could" take him down a notch or two.
As for the Wallace story line...yea I think its pretty much done. She didn't get under his skin as much in GREAT BARRIER, and I don't really see where else they could go with her...but who knows what those Sneaky-Petes writers have up their sleeves.
Pat, I'm with you! Something about Eames gut-shooting Nicole Wallace...a slow painful gut-shot death....there is just something about that, that appeals to me! *evil devil grin*
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Post by NicoleMarie on Feb 8, 2005 20:39:18 GMT -5
I used to think Logan went to the slammer. I don't think he spent forever in prison but I think he was there. I'll go ask someone to make sure. By the time Logan left, I quit watching L&O so much. hehehe I don't mind Goren getting a good slap upside the head every now and then cos, he needs it! It's just the cat and mouse games I don't like. I guess I just don't have the patience for it. Oooh I judt thought of a really good caption...Nicolemarie laughs evilly!
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Post by NikkiGreen on Feb 8, 2005 20:46:00 GMT -5
I used to think Logan went to the slammer... The photographers outside the court caught the slap Logan gave the Councilman. It was featured on the front page of the newspaper. Working Staten Island was akin to a demotion. No slammer! In the follow up TV-movie Exiled (a very good movie, I might add), Logan wasn't too pleased with Briscoe not siding with him. He wasn't too happy with McCoy either. Following the successful outcome of the case in the movie, Logan was left hoping things had improved for him and he'd be returning to the city.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Feb 8, 2005 20:57:09 GMT -5
Ah darn! You shattered my belief/fantasy! hehehehe
Oh man, I dread him again! hehehehehe
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Post by Patcat on Feb 8, 2005 23:04:44 GMT -5
Logan is a good, solid, cop with a bit of a short fuse. He works the way a lot of detectives work--following up clues, hanging tough, doing the everyday tough work. He doesn't have Goren's insight, ability to use his imagination, and psychological knowledge. So, I think a character like Logan works brilliantly in a procedural like the original L&O, but not as well in a LOCI environment. But it takes a lot of intelligence to be a detective on the level of the NYPD Major Case (heck, to be a 2nd or 3rd grade detective), so Logan must have something in his head.
Patcat
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Post by NicoleMarie on Feb 8, 2005 23:16:57 GMT -5
Logan must have something in his head. Patcat Yes, rocks! Ok, I will shut up now and go to bed! hehehehe
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MelTex
Detective
"I want a Jonny 7 all-in-one gun..."
Posts: 336
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Post by MelTex on Feb 8, 2005 23:55:18 GMT -5
Logan is a good, solid, cop. So, I think a character like Logan works brilliantly in a procedural like the original L&O, but not as well in a LOCI environment. But it takes a lot of intelligence to be a detective on the level of the NYPD Major Case (heck, to be a 2nd or 3rd grade detective), so Logan must have something in his head. Patcat Yea, I'm kinda wary about how well Logan will be able to keep up with Goren's psychopathy of the criminals. He didn't act like he really wanted to get into the "why dunnit" aspect in the mothership. You're right Pat, he was great in the mothership L&O, but (unless he goes through some serious personality and intellectual changes) he's gonna be trailing in Goren's dust on CI.
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Post by kawaiidragonfoe821 on Feb 9, 2005 11:46:35 GMT -5
I agree that it is the "a la Columbo" that keeps me interested. We never met "Mrs. Columbo", despite all the references to her. It was just a running joke and did not affect the crime-solving process. I don't mind a bit of moodiness for Goren (we all have our bad times), but let him do what he's good at--get into the minds of the criminals and bring them in. As a kid, i loved the old eps of sherlock & lived for them. i still have all the old tapes & still watch them LOL i was always apart from my classmates b/c i was the only 8 yr old that watched them over cartoons. anyhow... the one thing that was a little repetive about them was that holmes was ALWAYS perfect, he never made a mistake & we never REALLY got to see HIS batcave. with bobby we do & i really like seeing more of it, it gives more of an insight to his characters but we cant have TOO much of because it'll ruin the mystry of his character.
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Post by Techguy on Feb 9, 2005 14:09:14 GMT -5
...it takes a lot of intelligence to be a detective on the level of the NYPD Major Case (heck, to be a 2nd or 3rd grade detective), so Logan must have something in his head. Patcat Now we know Logan is going to be featured in half the CI episodes next Season-- presumably with a partner other than Eames? Who then? I know, Bishop must be coming back, and I can't decide whether to laugh or cry at the thought of a Logan/Bishop pairing. Is this a marriage made in TV heaven, or is NBC coming up with a new "Fear Factor" type reality series to compete with "Desperate Housewives" on Sunday nights? And if Bishop ends up paired with Logan, I wonder who will drive or scroll in this potential partnership?
And so Logan's exile in the Staten Island purgatory has ended. Does it also follow that somehow Logan either got promoted to Major Case Squad or has the connections necessary to land such a plum assignment with the NYPD? Heck, I never understood how Bishop landed on MCS either, so maybe if she is returning as Logan's partner, we might get a clue as to how either or both made it to MCS.
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Post by Patcat on Feb 9, 2005 16:01:14 GMT -5
I think we should remember all the speculation about Bishop is just that--speculation. I don't think she'll be brought back.
Re. Sherlock Holmes being perfect--ah, you've touched upon one of my sore points regarding both Holmes and Goren. Neither is perfect. Neither is a magician. Both are human and work very hard to gain the knowledge and to do their work. They don't make a lot of mistakes, but that's because they're good at their jobs.
And there are moments when Holmes makes Goren look like Mr. Sunshine. And vice versus.
Patcat (who will now get off her soapbox)
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Post by Marie on Feb 10, 2005 8:15:15 GMT -5
And there are moments when Holmes makes Goren look like Mr. Sunshine. And vice versus. Patcat (who will now get off her soapbox) Chuckle! Jeremy Brett played Sherlock Holmes of course, on the BBC. And that version of the popular sleuth included references to his occational indulgences in "cocaine"; ahem. So yes indeed! Sherlock had his "moments" too! But even worse in my opinion, he was also guilty of playing the violin BADLY! LOL! Ever hear someone doing that? It's agony! Like a cat being skinned alive! I'll take moody Goren over that, any day! Chuckle!!!
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