EPISODE OF THE WEEK: THE FAITHFUL

[Cassie]

Oh, I feel in this episode, God is a character too, because Father McShane was a priest......and to me, his vow as a priest is as valid as if it was a marriage license.

I still think God, would have released him from his vows joyfully

[musicwench]

patcat said:

A word in some defense of Melanie Grasso. Even today, with the scandals and a more liberal world, Catholic priests exist on a different plane for some Catholics. It's one reason the sex abuse scandal happened and festered for so long. The guild and shame of having a child out of wedlock, let alone the child of a priest, would be terrible for Melanie Grasso. This is not to excuse what she did, but to offer some explanation.

I note that no one seems to blame Father McShane in this case. Do people feel that he at least tried to do the right thing? (And, for the record, I feel sympathy for him, although I certainly don't condone his actions.)

Patcat

I agree with you about Melanie Grasso. I believe she did pay and is paying for her indiscretion. Maybe I was just reading it wrong but I found her to be someone who had rebuilt a life and had her family to protect, not just herself. Perhaps it came off as more selfish to others but it made me see her in a more sympathetic light. Again, not condoning her actions either but understanding where she might have been coming from.

Also, I do blame Father McShane for basically, being selfish in his desire to be the perfect priest or what have you. As Cassie pointed out, he could have left the priesthood and still served God and the church in some way, just not as a priest.

[DonnaJo]

summerfield said:

Funny thing, last night while watching 'Saving Grace,' Michael O'Keefe played a priest. He was "protecting a witness." He also annointed the victim with olive oil, ala 'The Faithful.' Talk about your deja vu

No one really has an original thought these days!

I know this is for another thread, but it would be interesting to revisit Father McShane in prison, like have Goren ask him for advice about his own questioning faith. I also wonder if McShane gets any visits from Melanie Grasso, or has she moved on again "for the sake of her family?"

[Techguy]

I don't want to come across as an insensitive sexist you-know-what, but I still can't muster up any sympathy for Melanie Grasso. How is lying and keeping a secret about an older child protecting her husband and children? She seems too self-absorbed about how her pregnancy and giving Kevin up for adoption is all about HER, and her need to not to have her reputation tarnished, I can't give her a pass.

Of course she's not responsible for Kevin's choices, and how he acted on his anger to hurt others to the point of murdering someone. But she's too indifferent, too obsessed with circling the wagons around herself and her "new" life to even express an interest in how Kevin was doing. Maybe, just maybe, a little involvement from her would have steered Kevin in another direction, or maybe not. I just feel that as a mother, knowing Father McShane has been responsible for Kevin, she could have been more of a positive factor in Kevin's life as he grew older and perhaps headed off the tragedy that followed.

The "Thorn Birds" reference as applied to Father McShane is a very good one. I believe he loved Melanie at one time, and most likely still does, and loved Kevin too until the young man threatened to disrupt his mother's life. Father McShane is flawed, and while guilty of killing his own son, is basically not an evil man. He "manned up" to continue to protect Melanie, who I'm not convinced fully appreciated the magnitude of the double tragedy of losing her oldest son to death and her former lover to prison. Hindsight is indeed 20/20, and while it would have been much more preferable for Father McShane and Melanie to acknowledge their love, and for him to leave the priesthood to commit to that love, at the time Kevin was conceived both the priest and Melanie were too young and immature to acknowledge the options open to them. In hindsight, things become clearer and less complicated which is not available at the time the decision was being made.

Choices, choices, choices indeed.

[Patcat]

Techguy, I can't imagine anyone thinking you're a sexist anything (g).

There are no easy answers in this episode, no easy choices. It's a complicated, unforgiving view, and I think the fact that it doesn't give anyone any easy ways out may be why it's so good.

Patcat

[DonnaJo]

Question: Did Kevin know that Father McShane was his biological father? We know that he found out that Melanie Grasso was his mother and that's why he wanted to find her. To either hurt her or extort money from her, I forget his motive.

I just can't recall a scene where they mention that Kevin knows his paternity. Anyone?

[musicwench]

techguy said:

I don't want to come across as an insensitive sexist you-know-what, but I still can't muster up any sympathy for Melanie Grasso. How is lying and keeping a secret about an older child protecting her husband and children? She seems too self-absorbed about how her pregnancy and giving Kevin up for adoption is all about HER, and her need to not to have her reputation tarnished, I can't give her a pass.

Not the lying she did in the first place, but at this point in her life, what good would it do to tell them about it now? Would it bring Kevin back? Would it make anyone feel better?

I guess I'm seeing it from the point of view of 'if I were that woman's child.' Cause quite frankly, sometimes the truth is not always a good thing. It would be devastating to me if I had learned something like that about my parent.

Perhaps that's where Goren's sympathy comes in? Not wanting to ruin a family? Perhaps the sympathy is for Melanie's family.

And of course, like I said before, I could be reading her reactions in the wrong way but I think she was genuinely remorseful and while that doesn't condone what she did in the first place, keeping her family intact now isn't necessarily a bad thing even if it might be a bit selfish.

Oh and I don't think your opinion is a sexist one, btw. It's just coming from a different place mine is. ;-)

[Techguy]

musicwench said:

at this point in her life, what good would it do to tell them about it now? Would it bring Kevin back? Would it make anyone feel better?

I don't think your opinion is a sexist one, btw. It's just coming from a different place mine is. ;-)

I agree it's too late now for Melanie to reveal anything about her past to her family, as nothing would change insofar as Kevin's outcome is concerned. I just think that sometime before the tragedy, when Kevin and her own children were old enough to understand, she could have unburdened herself to her husband and children, and maybe got involved in Kevin's life so perhaps Kevin wouldn't have become so angry and violent.

BTW, thanks to you and Patcat for not thinking my view is sexist.

DonnaJo, you ask a very interesting question as to whether or not Kevin knew Father McShane was his biological father. My own view is he probably did not, but having discovered who his biological mother was he not only was going to disrupt her life, he might also have wanted to contact her to pressure her to reveal his father's identity so he could extort money from him too.

[deathroe]

I've been reading this thread with interest. This episode has always been difficult for me to get my head around, for some reason, but here are some impressions:

(1) Re: Goren's strenuous insistence that Melanie Grasso's family situation is "worth protecting." I wonder if he sees both her situation and her need to preserve her family as such a good because of his own fragmented family background.

Ultimately in this episode, Goren takes on the priest's role of confessor, with McShale as elsewhere in the series. Confession is a more important aspect of LOCI than of the other franchise series. It seems worth pointing out here because it seems that in the whole episode Goren logic (secular reason) supersedes the church dynamic.

(2) Watching the S1 episodes on USA, I'm struck by how luminous Eames/Erbe is. She has more to do here than usual--and there are some really neat shots of her, like the one in the glass at the video arcade, and the one where you have all the police and priests at the table in (think it's) Deakins' office, and she's standing behind the table and above them. It's as though she's being set up as the female perspective in this male-dominated world. Not that I'm a fan or anything *g*--but with all the memorable Goren scenes in this episode in particular it's worth pointing out that Eames was a great character even at this early stage. She is also the person who crisply points out to church officials that it's up to a judge--not to the diocese--to issue a warrant, giving some little suggestion of the church-state separation issue.


(3) Re, treatment of the Catholic Church: I had the sense with this one, which I do not always have with L&O, that it was a convoluted crime that just happened to have a Church context. The writers were using the Church for background and character and a particular story, not for sustained dialectic. I take it that for whatever reason the RC perspective was always part of the show: Ben Stone was Catholic, and so was Greevey. Not too sure why. ::curious::

[madger]

Several LOCI episodes deal with the Catholic church. How is that institution portrayed in LOCI? In this episode?
I think it is just a backdrop to the story, not a character of it.
But I noticed that Goren is very hostile to "the church" yet extremely sympathetic and gentle in his dealing with Father McShane.

Carver is extremely upset by Goren's getting a confession from Father McShane. Should the ADA be upset? For his part, Goren actually seems somewhat chastened by Carver's words. Should the detective feel guilty? Could Carver really take away Goren's badge?
This was when I started to develop a dislike for Carver, I never understood his problem with what Goren did. After all he got a plea bargain with no need for a trial.

We don't see Eames' reaction to Goren's getting the confession. Their conversation just before Goren visits McShane suggests Eames, while sympathetic to Melanie Grasso's situation, wouldn't entirely support Goren's actions. I've occasionally thought that if Eames did send that request for a transfer during the events of the first season, it might have happened after this case. Comments?
I'm with "it happened before the show started" camp.

I am bothered by one thing, that they let Morris' daughter think he had a gay relationship with Kevin, with absolutely no basis.

Another favorite quote:
"Who forgives God?"
Eames: "I'm already getting a headache thinking about it"

[Patcat]

Deathroe--the idea of the confessional, with Goren taking the role of the priest hearing the confession, is one that struck me very forcefully as I watched the final scene between Goren and McShane last night. Confessions in the Catholic Church are now frequently face to face, and the body postures of Goren and McShayne were very much like those of a priest and penitent. Goren takes this role quite frequently in the series, but it's very clearly defined here.

Eames is a splendid anchor to reality in this episode.

I think there are several reasons why LOCI, and the whole L&O world, have Catholic themes and stories running through it. There's a lot of former Catholics (and for all I know, current ones) before and behind the cameras. Dick Wolf was an altar boy at St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York City. Not only is Robert Goren an ex-altar boy, but Mr. D'Onofrio was raised Catholic, at least long enough to make his First Communion. I strongly suspect Rene Balcer was raised Catholic. And the Catholic Church is a huge presence for good and ill in New York City.

Patcat

[Patcat]

Everyone is making such good contributions to the thread. And I love the episode so I can't shut up.(g)

I suspect Goren is one of many people who dislike the Catholic Church as an institution but recognizes there are good people within it. I wonder if a priest or nun helped him as a child? (Not all priests and nuns are abusive people, recent headlines not withstanding.)

And as I watched the show last night, Carver's actions annoyed me more and more. Goren pointed out to Father McShayne that either the abuse story or the one involving Melanie Grasso could be of benefit to his defense. Now, admittedly Carver didn't know about Melanie Grasso, but he knew he might lose this case with the abuse defense. Goren might have saved Carver's rear on this case; the detective certainly saved the people of New York the cost of a trial.

And the suggestion Abernathy might have had a relationship with Kevin--yea, that bothers me, too. I suspect Goren and Eames would let his daughter know her father was actually a true hero in all of this mess.

Patcat (who apologizes for her spouting this am)

[musicwench]

deathroe said:

(1) Re: Goren's strenuous insistence that Melanie Grasso's family situation is "worth protecting." I wonder if he sees both her situation and her need to preserve her family as such a good because of his own fragmented family background.

That's pretty much what I believe in hindsight. Goren's own fractured background is often the driving motivator behind his actions. Whether it's lashing out at negligent fathers or about protecting children from bad family situations, it does seem to be a recurring theme.

[DonnaJo]

patcat said:

I suspect Goren is one of many people who dislike the Catholic Church as an institution but recognizes there are good people within it. I wonder if a priest or nun helped him as a child? (Not all priests and nuns are abusive people, recent headlines not withstanding.)

I don't think Goren dislikes the Catholic Church as an institution. Didn't he remark during this episode, "There's the Catholic Church and then there's St. *****(don't remember name of the church in the ep)
Meaning that he was distinguishing the wrong doings of that specific church from the institution as a whole.

I also believe that Bobby was befriended by a priest, nun or lay member of the church while growing up. They may have helped his family with food or bills during a time when Mr. Goren was absent (we do that at my job all the time). Something good affected his positive view of the religious.

[Techguy]

patcat said:

Deathroe--the idea of the confessional, with Goren taking the role of the priest hearing the confession, is one that struck me very forcefully as I watched the final scene between Goren and McShane last night.

Eames is a splendid anchor to reality in this episode.

These are two wonderful and spot-on observations, excellent examples of what CI has done in the past that were regretfully missing in Season 6. Oh how I long for a return to the good old days when there were depths and layers to the story that enhanced the viewing experience and discussion afterward.