EPISODE OF THE WEEK: JONES

[Patcat]

Will air May 30, on the USA Cable Network, at 6 pm(EST)

First aired October 21, 2001. Fifth show of the First Season.

Written by Geoffrey Neighor and Rene Balcer
Directed by Frank Prinzi

Guest Cast:
Daniella Alonso as Angie Suarez
Griffin Dunne as Henry Talbott
Karen Young as Denise Talbott
Thomas G. Waites as Mo Turman (the bookie)
Leslie Hendrix as M.E. Rodgers
(Hendrix, Dunne, and Waites are all repeat offenders, or will be)

Synopsis: Goren and Eames follow the bodies of the mistresses of a lawyer who's life is in chaos.

Quotes:

Goren: "I like to dance."

Eames: "I didn't take this job to get noticed."

Goren: "I like Angie."

Eames: "Big day for little women."

Goren (examining a body): "Well, unless they're scenting the ocean with lavendar, this woman was drowned in a bathtub."

Goren: "Could be a serial killer...or a killing spree."
Deakins: "Well, whatever they are...there's three of them."

Eames: "It looks like his train's about to run out of gravy."

Goren: "The only medical condition you have is denial."

Eames (after Denise refuses to turn on Henry): "So much for sisterhood."

Eames: "He's an equal opportunity sleezeball."

Goren: "Hey, Don Juan...You're under arrest."

Eames (to Talbott while waiting for Goren): "He likes to take his time."

Goren (to Denise): "He's never been the man you thought you married. He never will be."

Eames: "I need to to wash off the slime."

A very popular first season offering, that had a lot of discussion, but a lot centered on that scene about Goren's "Size 13 shoes" It's a terrific scene,but one I'd like to only briefly touch on, largely because there's a lot of other terrific scenes and things about this story. Of course, if anyone wants to talk about the shoe scene, feel free.

What do these women see in Henry? How did he meet Denise? Why does Denise stay with him?

Will Denise survive?

How did Henry get through Yale Law?

Is Angie Henry's first murder? If she was, would he have eventually killed one of his girlfriends?

Do Goren and Eames consider Rand a serious suspect? Is Rand guilty of anything?

What is Eames' reaction to Denise?

Is Denise the stupidest woman in the LOCI universe?

How does Eames react to being bait for Talbott?

This is a fairly explicit episode, beginning with the sexual encounter at the start, continuing with the comdon left on the kitchen floor, and, of course, that infamous "Size 13" conversation. Is it too explicit or exploitive?

I apologize for the few questions, but I do have a lot of comments that I hope will encourage some discussion.

I'm haunted by Angie, who appears to have been a sweet, gentle soul. Even her boss, who's more than a bit of a jerk, is disturbed by her death.

This is an episode which helped to cement my love for Goren and Eames. They both look beyond Angie's profession--which some might view as just above that of a prostitute--and see the real human being. I like the gentle way Goren interviews Angie's co-worker, the way he dances with her so she won't get in trouble, and the way he pays for her drinks and dance. This is a good man.

Deakins is watching out for his detectives. He urges both to take a post with the task force. And Goren is watching out for Eames--he notes it would be a good move for her.

There's some great points in this episode. The set dressing for Talbott's office is a terrific reflection of the chaos of the man's life.
(Talbott's description of Rand's life is also a pretty good description of Talbott's life.) While I suspect that the one way mirror is unbreakable in real life, Talbott's shattering of it is a tremendous punctuation point on this story. And I love the final framing of Goren and Eames inside the shattered mirror.

A critic once commented that Kathryn Erbe was one of the few actresses who looked like she was actually physically strong enough to be a cop. And her shoulders look terrific. Erbe is really wonderful in his episode. D'Onofrio gets all the showy stuff, and he's wonderful at it, but Erbe gets some terrific snarky lines in this episode and she handles those and the massive exposition in this story with great skill.

Happy talking.

Patcat

[Summerfield]

Denise wasn't stupid, Goren could vouch for her....uh sorry, wrong Denise. ;D

I think the wife in Phantom had to be the dumbest in the LOCI universe, but that's another topic.

If George Bush got through Yale, I guess Talbott could too.

[tjara]

I did read the other thread about this episode, but with all your nice questions, Patcat, I wanted to post in this thread. I'm acutally somewhat surprised that this episode doesn't get more attention.

One thing I want to address first:

This is a fairly explicit episode, beginning with the sexual encounter at the start, continuing with the condom left on the kitchen floor, and, of course, that infamous "Size 13" conversation. Is it too explicit or exploitive?

In my oppinion, no. This ep touches upon many stereotypes and "common myth". It's really the key to this ep, I think... just think about it, Goren doesn't have to explain the size 13 or the hand remark, and that's only because we as viewers know what he's implying. One maybe could discuss the first scene (did we really need it?), though I don't get all worked up about just a little bit of bare skin, really. I would'nt think that CI is something that very young people should watch. Also, before I worry about that little bit of bare skin, I worry about all the violence that is depicted on CI and other shows. Honestly, I sometimes think it's surprising that people will be put off by a mildly explicit scene, but violence doesn't even make them shiver... and they definitely don't worry about their children seeing it as much. I'm not implying you, Patcat, or anyone in particular on this board - I just think there's a double standard on this issue.

For me, this episode is definitely one of my favorites, simply because it's very witty and very critical of stereotypes at the same time. It depicts a few stereotypes (prostitute, little women are weak,...) and it destroys them. Of course, having two actors that themselves can pass for stereotypes (VDO and KE) and using them brilliantly in this ep makes it even stronger. I guess it also profits from the fact that usually Eames is the "tough" one in this couple, inspite of the size difference.

Also, I like how cleverly the story is set up - like the issue about little women. Right at the beginning another cop remarks about Angie & her killer: "Took a tough guy to kill her." or Eames "Big day for little women." They touch upon this issue here and there, but we don't now yet why it's important.

Eames as bait is just too funny, I like how they set Talbott up. KE really gets to do something in that ep, I like that. She's doing such a good job with Talbott, reacting the right way - like when she thanks him for protecting her. I also like how she contributes to the story otherwise - Eames is the one to know right away where Angie worked - very believeable detail considering she was with Vice before MCS. And of course she talks to the pimp etc. It nice how they set up "reversed roles" (Eames, the small lady is though, Goren the big guy is soft) which makes the set up of Talbott & aria ever more powerful, because roles are reversed. Goren acting all "jerky" is funny too, especially since Goren usually doesn't act that way (I even much more enjoy his act in "Badge") - but it works so well with a certain kind of suspect.

And of course, I love the aria. It's got me laughing every time, and it's so cleverly set up. I mean, at the beginning, Goren really is in the background of the shot and he still seems "big". Then the shoe-shot, set up to make his shoe look big. The way he towers over Talbott to see what size he wears... The remark about hands, which clearly works so well because VDO has these ridiculously long fingers... look at how he holds his hands on that remark, you really see it, too. I wonder whether that scene was hard to do and I'd love to see the bloopers.

What do these women see in Henry? How did he meet Denise? Why does Denise stay with him?

I guess he can be very charming when he wants to. Also, because of his own ego, he wants to be the "protector" in a relationship. And many women do like that.
I've no clue where he meets Denise, but it's quite evident that she doesn't know what kind of scumball he is. She knows he's got trouble, but she thinks it's his business, she's unaware of the affairs, the cocaine and the gambling.
I also like how these two actors are cast and how they are put in a frame and you can see that she's about his heigt if not taller. And then we have a frame Talbott and Goren and this time the height difference is really striking...

How did Henry get through Yale Law?

It's called Gentlemen C's, right? Also, his situation took a while to develop, so my guess would be he's been in a downward spiral for a while, but probably wasn't as bad back in college.

Is Angie Henry's first murder? If she was, would he have eventually killed one of his girlfriends?

Yes, Angie was the first victim. I don't think Henry was meant to be a serial killer, but this was supposed to be a killing spree. Henry was "cleaning the house" because he was under pressure. Angie put him under pressure, then the second girl did, then Goren & Eames do...

How does Eames react to being bait for Talbott?

Strange you would ask that, because I think when the camera shows Eames, there's almost no reaction, maybe a surprised one, but almost as if she hasn't picked up on what Goren is suggesting. I might have an overimaginitive mind - but up until then her heigt hasn't been an issue, not in eps before that, not in that particular ep. It's as if she herself forgets about it, and so the other people do to, and Goren reminds her of it. Not that she's that small... but she seems to be this tough cop, so you don't really think about it...

While I suspect that the one way mirror is unbreakable in real life, Talbott's shattering of it is a tremendous punctuation point on this story. And I love the final framing of Goren and Eames inside the shattered mirror.

I love that, too. Of course the real mirror is unbreakable, but the shattered mirror really is a symbol. It's the shards of Henry's and Denise's lives. And it's funny that the guy that's so small can shatter the mirror - it's like they are debunking the small and weak notion that's been in that ep. It's really them debunking stereotypes in this ep.

I like the gentle way Goren interviews Angie's co-worker, the way he dances with her so she won't get in trouble, and the way he pays for her drinks and dance. This is a good man.

I second that - at that point I was completely smitten with Robert Goren.

[DonnaJo]

Great comments, tjara.

In terms of classic Goren, the final aria in this episode has to be one of the very best, IMO. And it wouldn't have been half as good without the guest actor. He made VDO and Erbe shine.

Hiring Griffin Dunne as the slimy, cunning, charming Henry Talbott was a brilliant choice. He is such a talent. I'm surprised that he isn't in more TV or movies (or he is and I haven't seen it?) Other than CI, I saw him in "An American Werewolf In London."

[deathroe]

Scorsese's After Hours is classic Dunne, but I can never quite watch it without thinking of the villainous Hen-ry!

[leanonme]

I love this episode.

I have to say that I screen every episode of CI before I let my teenagers see it. I don't let them watch this one, for a lot of reasons. In fact, sometimes I am horrified that there are kids out there who see CI, because sometimes it is just, well, bad. By bad I mean you have to be really mature to handle it well. I was pretty shocked to see that they are going to air repeats on NBC at 8:00. I think there are sexual issues that are especially dangerous for teens to see. Violence is one thing, and I screen for that, but combine violence with sexual images and that is really bad. Robert Goren would say so himself.

I am no prude. I thought that the scene at the beginning was exploitive. We didn't need to see that sex scene to understand the story. It wasn't even a great scene, as I think some commented on previous threads. There were certainly ways to do it better. To me, it screamed RATINGS, SHOCK VALUE. One thing that really hit me was that it was right at the very beginning of the episode, so any person who had the TV on from a previous show, and hadn't changed the channel yet, was hit pretty hard. This is one reason I don't have TV...

I think that was the only exploitive thing. I felt the rest of the show was great. I love the guest cast in this. The manager at the hostess bar always gets a laugh out of me, I guess when you have watched it a lot, it becomes easy to see the melodrama...
"Little Angie? No..." ( far off, uncharacteristic, sentimental look...) LOL.

Denise? Ah, she is another of my favorites. "My husband called and asked me to pay off his gambling debts, of course I agreed," in that great, snotty, are-you-crazy- and- stop- breaking- my- denial voice.

Was anyone put off by Eames "sisterhood" remark? I found it pretty sexist. So, as a woman, I am just supposed to speak because you are a woman? Like we have some sort of stupid, mindless bond? I mean, could you imagine Goren ever expecting a man to speak just because he was a man- "brotherhood", please.

I could go on and on about Denise, but I am short on time now. But denial? To say the least. I don't think that she is stupid, but allowing herself to repress what she suspects, so that her perfect little life isn't disturbed. ( Which I guess is stupid.) I mean, ugh, to have to face the truth? Just like Eames said at the end... now she has to go tell her kids. I mean, how awful. I always found it interesting how they just barge in and tell her that her husband is suspected of what, 3 or 4 murders... she probably had been worrying about him having an affair, or some drug problem.

Goren is great in this episode. What can you say about that dance at the bar? And offering her the money? Who can't love that? I always think he is the man of steel, considering that dress she was wearing, and her body, and he never gives one look, just respect.

The aria is awesome. I think you have to be mature to get it for all it is worth. Of course we all know what they are going for here, and it is hilarious. Griffin Dunne is the best. VDO what can you say? Slamming that foot up there? Great! But you know, the truth is that Goren is hitting Talbot in his weak spot, not in what is necessarily true. This is one reason that I wouldn't let my teens watch it, they are smart, but I didn't want them walking around with that idea in their minds( stereotype, short men,small women, shoe size, etc.), until they could really get beyond the drama of it and understand that once again, Goren is hitting someone in their weak spot psychologically, based on what they believe to be true.

This is one of the reasons I adore this show, and Goren. I have watched a lot of good arias lately, and it just doesn't matter what is the actual truth about a situation, Goren is going to hit the person with how the person sees the situation. It might be true in Goren's life, or the persons, or it may not, but he isn't going to back down from it. In fact, he is going to blow it up larger than life, and this is displayed perfectly here. Of course, it usually is blown up in the person's mind, and that is why they have committed any given crime. We just get into everyone's head, and I love it.

Oh, and add in the broken glass- I am glad that did it that way, even if it is unbreakable in real life- and Goren slamming Talbot on the table...very cool, love it, love it. Awesome TV.

Thanks for the discussion!

[maherjunkie]

You don't think they can handle it at that age and be familiar with the references and distinguish between sterotypes?

DonnaJo, you are forgetting "Who's That Girl? with Madonna. ;D

[Patcat]

And I think you have to admire Griffin Dunne's willingness to play a character who's so sloppily evil, and whose manhood is so blatantly challenged.

Patcat

[leanonme]

I think they can. I am sure they have. I know they see and hear plenty, they tell me a lot of it. But you know the idea is "not on my watch." I was considering this at my son's basketball game this afternoon, feeling really weird, because I am just putting out blurbs and I feel like I sound like a nut. But really, that opening scene? When I was a kid, that was soft core porn.

I think it was just the whole episode. But I think I am also really sensitive because we have some men in our family who are at both ends of the spectrum, really tall and really short, and it was just weird. I imagined this conversation in my head, and it always ended up sounding like I was trying to say, "well you know Uncle Charlie and Uncle Steve, well it isn't true for them," UGH. So, I can talk about stereo types in general without having to get THAT close to home, know what I mean?

Thanks for the question.

[deathroe]

I think that with the "sisterhood" remark Eames just meant that Denise had chosen her husband over his female victims ... JMO, however

[jeffan]

JMO, but I sometimes wonder if there is such a bond as "sisterhood", especially when the male of the species is involved!

I read this book when it was first published and it certainly made me have a re-think.


www.amazon.com/Womans-Inhumanity-Woman-Phyllis-Chesler/dp/0452284082

[ragincajun]

as a nurse the sterotype of tall men and short men and parts of anatomy( also didn't you love on HLOTS, We there was talk about the size of a mans nose, with Munch! lol. Also then the size of hands, )I am sure that was all created by a tall man with big hands, large feet, large nose and a little, well you know, cause in 10 yrs, as a nurse I can tell you, it aint true.

[tjara]

leanonme
Do you mind me asking - how old are your teens?
Do you by chance know - how is CI rated?

I don't think I can talk about this completely unbiased. First, I'm not a parent, and that definitely changes a lot. Also, my parents never were overly strict when it came to watching TV - or let's say, what I watch on TV. I cannot say whether it did harm, I don't think it did By that time such shows became interesting, I was informed well enough in that department, though.

I agree though, that first scene was rather unnecessary.

[tjara]

PS: I never really understood that sisterhood remark. Though I thought Eames was talking about the 4 victims - alluding to the fact that Denise, inspite of the evidence, wouldn't believe Henry did it.

[leanonme]

Feb 8, 2009 17:29:20 GMT -5 tjara said:

leanonme
Do you mind me asking - how old are your teens?
Do you by chance know - how is CI rated?

I don't think I can talk about this completely unbiased. First, I'm not a parent, and that definitely changes a lot. Also, my parents never were overly strict when it came to watching TV - or let's say, what I watch on TV. I cannot say whether it did harm, I don't think it did By that time such shows became interesting, I was informed well enough in that department, though.

I agree though, that first scene was rather unnecessary.

Last night I walked into the house, and my teens and my husband were watching Jones! LOL. I forgot to ask my husband if they watched the opening.

My son is 17 a real gentleman, humble sort, and when I came in during the aria, he was embarrassed and left the room. My daughter, a much more worldly 15, was fine with it.

Putting this out there has given me a lot of food for thought, and some pretty interesting conversations with my friends. I am biased as well tjara, because as I said, I had a pretty crazy home growing up, and I was exposed to a lot of things that had a big impact on me, and it wasn't good. My kids have a very different home. As I said, I know that they are exposed to a lot. But it is just easier not to have the ongoing battle in the house about what is coming out of the TV, especially since I have younger kids in the house as well.

I have no idea what CI is rated. Good question. TV is very different than when I was a kid. But one thing I love about CI is that it is a great springboard for lots of great discussions about justice, and all kinds of issues. In fact, my son told me that in one of his classes, his teacher was amazed at his knowledge of psychology, and lots of other random things. One day, she asked the kids in class what they watched on TV. When my son told her that she watched CI, he said, "Oh that's the one with VDO right? Well that explains a lot about the things you know."