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Post by deathroe on Jul 27, 2008 19:29:09 GMT -5
I'm glad to know someone who notices these things noticed this! It struck me as a real pattern in the episode.
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Post by deathroe on Jul 27, 2008 19:43:02 GMT -5
Speaking of audiences ... I saw this thing on Hollywood Heat on TruTv (aka Court TV ... yeah, I watch some silly things ). They either are running or were running a couple of stories about being an extra on SVU. They remarked that they use between 200 and 400 extras. So I was just wondering: does CI no longer do that? Owing to the 30% budget cut? I was kind of curious about this. One thing I could see it impacting in "Vanishing Act" would be the Miles Stone spectators, I'm thinking. Seems like there weren't so many of them.
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Post by djcifan on Jul 28, 2008 4:41:02 GMT -5
I believe there was no IV set up while he was in the real coffin and underground. When he was in the safe room he had the IV hook-up. He wanted to look gaunt and starved so that his duped fans wouldn't start asking questions like "how come you look so robust and well fed after being buried for a month?". I think that's what happened.......I could be wrong. Yes, the safe room had all the cool medical paraphernalia, but the premise of the trick was that he was truly buried alive for 30ish days right? So since humans have to have some fluids the IV made sense - I just couldn't figure out how the organizers imagined the could have had the IV trailing out of the coffin lol. Or perhaps it's just more 'magic'. Like I said I just pictured an IV post standing next to a headstone. ;D Loved James Frain, one of the better male guest stars of the season. Glad to see a guy being the murderer for a change, all those crazy ladies were making me nervous. And Christopher Lloyd was perfect. Really enjoyable epi.
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Post by ragincajun on Jul 28, 2008 10:20:28 GMT -5
I believe there was no IV set up while he was in the real coffin and underground. When he was in the safe room he had the IV hook-up. He wanted to look gaunt and starved so that his duped fans wouldn't start asking questions like "how come you look so robust and well fed after being buried for a month?". I think that's what happened.......I could be wrong. Actually if you notice when they are at the grave site, they have an IV pump behind them while viewing the screen watching the magician in the coffin, so they give the impression that he does have an IV in the coffin.
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Post by djcifan on Jul 28, 2008 18:02:56 GMT -5
Ah ha - I'll have to watch for that the next time! So there was an IV trailing out of the coffin! Thanks for the sanity check, ragincajin.
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Post by deathroe on Jul 28, 2008 23:34:59 GMT -5
Oh, by the way--on the magic world as being figurative for present-day television? On reviewing, Miles Stone spells out the analogy pretty clearly: the audience "doesn't want cheap tricks and illusion anymore, they want reality [my emphasis]." Think "reality television": yeah, it's there.
[edit: and note Eames' "didn't you used to have a network deal?" at the end. It's nice to see these little connecting threads. Classic CI seems to do that a lot: it's overtly about the crime story, but then at another level it's about something else. Examples: "The Pilgrim" is about human loneliness, not terrorism; "Silver Lining" is about Goren as master craftsman and about the Eames/Goren partnership; "Death Roe" is overtly about human gluttony. Not to the exclusion of all else, but there's always something like that in the really good episodes.]
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susan1212
Detective
Yeah. I get that.
Posts: 444
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Post by susan1212 on Jul 30, 2008 20:10:42 GMT -5
deathroe said
I don't know why I didn't respond to this enlightening and moving post way back on page 5. All I can say is that it was so well written that I was taken aback and wanted to think about it for a while. Then, I must have forgotten; then quietfireca mentioned it to me and well it is such "good stuff" (sincerely!) that I have to comment.
You are right, deathroe, when you say that this is what Bobby is capable of giving. Many men hope to charm their way back into the heart of a woman. Depending on the man, and in this case, I would have to say "It works for me!" I think he is adorable and she does too. She knows this is the best he can do, and she is welcoming and accepting of his way of apologizing. She smiled at him, and even laughed with him in this episode. I think it's their way of reconnecting. She probably couldn't handle a full out apology and "relationship talk" either. As you said, neither one of them is "good at dealing with their most profound emotions". I am not a shipper, but I think it would be easier for them to make up if they were romantically involved. One kiss from Bobby and I'd be saying..."Come over here and let me forgive you some more!" But as police detective partners, and hopefully never lovers IMO, I cannot see them having a long talk about it. It's not how their relationship has worked in the past, and even though it does seem to be changing, heart-to-heart talks with each other don't seem to be in their future either.(thank God!) When it comes to their partnership/friendship, skirting the issue is the path they take. And eventually, she will find a way to let him know he is completely forgiven...maybe by just having an end of show comment....which neither one did in this episode. The writers are very subtle, so we will have to keep a watchful eye on them. (which is something everyone on this board is intensely good at!)
Thanks again, deathroe, for another of your insightful posts!
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Post by DonnaJo on Jul 30, 2008 21:29:43 GMT -5
Thank you both for sharing such beautiful thoughts. Deathroe, your explanation of Goren's somewhat awkward display ( I did call it fawning....sorry..) to Eames as being what he is capable of now, emotionally, is very profound. I missed it too, in the rush of getting my own two cents in about the episode. Susan wrote: "And eventually, she will find a way to let him know he is completely forgiven..."I believe that this "letting him know" will be by saving him from the nosedive he is supposedly heading for in "Frame." Instigated by Nicole? Who else could save him from her but Eames, who knows their history together like no one else.
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Post by Techguy on Jul 31, 2008 13:40:33 GMT -5
Thanks from me too to Deathroe, Susan1212, and DonnaJo for your insightful comments about the Goren/Eames relationship. I sincerely hope they are on the mend for good, especially if Nicole is lurking about waiting to pounce in "Frame." Nicole smells weakness like a shark smells blood in the water, so if Goren's nemesis is indeed going to return, G/E will need to muster all their strength and will to oppose her. I think it would be easier for them to make up if they were romantically involved. From my personal experiece, I have to disagree. Maybe because I'm a male, but for me it's much more difficult to "make up" with someone I'm emotionally invested in. Fortunately I haven't had serious problems in this regard with Mrs. T, but I admit I have had extreme difficulty with this issue in my past relationships. Maybe I finally matured and grew up by the time I got married! ;D
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Post by maherjunkie on Jul 31, 2008 13:50:37 GMT -5
Thank you both for sharing such beautiful thoughts. Deathroe, your explanation of Goren's somewhat awkward display ( I did call it fawning....sorry..) to Eames as being what he is capable of now, emotionally, is very profound. I missed it too, in the rush of getting my own two cents in about the episode. Susan wrote: "And eventually, she will find a way to let him know he is completely forgiven..."I believe that this "letting him know" will be by saving him from the nosedive he is supposedly heading for in "Frame." Instigated by Nicole? Who else could save him from her but Eames, who knows their history together like no one else. Ahh yes, he should be eternally sorry for putting his job over her well being. I wish he would do "relationship talk"- to lay her out if necessary.
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Post by deathroe on Jul 31, 2008 17:02:30 GMT -5
This and all the other comments about this are very, very interesting. Thanks for posting them. It is very interesting to read different perspectives on E and G. I do not see mine as totalizing. One thing I do think is that there was way too much there for the writers to write them a more permanent bust-up. To me, unlike the other franchise relationships that I enjoy (everyone from Logan and Greevey to, yes, Benson and Stabler), Goren and Eames' dynamic is more multi-layered and extremely affecting. I might be giving myself too much credit, but I don't think it's just the cute factor: I think it's the personalities involved. Somehow, despite its being just a silly crime show ::dodges bullets:: what the actors show strikes me as deep and genuine, whether the actors see it as friendship or something more (and wouldn't you just love to know how they see it?) That is, however you slice it, exactly what he did. It's kind of interesting to me that that scene in "Purgatory" really did divide fans into two camps. I know as a woman I was very inclined to take Eames' part, and basically, I still do. But people do do this to each other, it strikes me--people disappoint each other all the time :/ In a way, there has been something very satisfying about seeing Goren's humanity, both in his singleminded pursuit of the only thing that has ever given his life meaning--let's face it--having this job--and then in his rather puppyish attempts to set things right with Eames. It's very arresting, even if the accompanying crime stories have sometimes been--well, I really hate to say it, but--lacking.
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Post by diablodeblanco on Jul 31, 2008 18:30:17 GMT -5
A point to consider..........
What if Goren had told Eames about his undercover situation. That would have been exactly what he was ordered not to do by not only Ross but the Chief of Ds. At this stage of the game any infraction, the slightest hint of insubordination on Goren's part would have given his superiors the excuse to can him. He knew they were looking for that excuse. The man was out of work for months with no end in sight. What kind of financial drain that must have been. How scary that must have been. His job, his pension, his health insurance, etc. all gone if he didn't do as he was ordered. Put yourself in his place. Now make a choice. Tell your partner the secret or grab hold of the only way to reclaim not only what is a must have financially but a must have emotionally. Where would he go at his age for other employment. Can you imagine the reference letter the Chief of Ds would write? Imagine....50, out of work, out of money, out of benefits, out of everything that you need to survive. But you still have your partner.....sort of. She calls once in a while to see how you are doing now that you have nothing. Then eventually she stops calling altogether. Goren made the right choice. The only choice. Eames needs to get over her snit and understand what was truly at stake.
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Ladyheather
Detective
An acquired taste.....
Posts: 441
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Post by Ladyheather on Jul 31, 2008 20:29:04 GMT -5
I still want to punch Bobby for not letting Eames into the loop, however is was for a good reason. He did this to keep his job and protect her. Maybe in the past he would have put her at risk, but he just did that and it cost him dearly. I think that is why Ross was involved, to keep Eames out and still Bobby had someone he really could trust. The "old Bobby" would have told her anyway, but not since he fell. He cared too much for her to drag her into something that he suspected was a set up. If it had been and he told her, she would have probably lost her job too. What if she would have gotten killed because of him and the higher ups wanting him gone. She accidentally gets in the way, and gets hurt. There were too many things that were not under his control, he kept her out because he cared.
Now, after saying all that, I still want to punch him for not confiding in her. She would have been ok. Next to her husband, Bobby is the one man(decent man) she has had in her life.
His need for her approval is normal. He cares what she thinks. He wants things to be ok, again. It is a question he has had to ask her before, even when it wasn't so serious. I am not a shipper, but this is the most important relationship in each of their lives. They are married to their jobs, and their jobs/lives depend on each other.
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Post by quietfireca on Jul 31, 2008 22:38:15 GMT -5
Nicole smells weakness like a shark smells blood in the water, so if Goren's nemesis is indeed going to return, G/E will need to muster all their strength and will to oppose her. I think it would be easier for them to make up if they were romantically involved. From my personal experiece, I have to disagree. Maybe because I'm a male, but for me it's much more difficult to "make up" with someone I'm emotionally invested in. Fortunately I haven't had serious problems in this regard with Mrs. T, but I admit I have had extreme difficulty with this issue in my past relationships. Maybe I finally matured and grew up by the time I got married! ;D I have to agree, Techguy. Goren and Eames must have a united front and cover each others backs (at the same time? how's that for a confusing mental picture???) if they are going to face Nicole. Geez, I could live without her. The UO nickname is far too nice for her. And it's far easier for me to talk plainly with a co-worker who I'm not emotionally invested in! But that's just me - maybe I need to learn a few things!
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Post by quietfireca on Jul 31, 2008 22:48:03 GMT -5
Ahh yes, he should be eternally sorry for putting his job over her well being. I wish he would do "relationship talk"- to lay her out if necessary. lay her out? Now there's an unexpected thought! Sorry maherjunkie! I couldn't resist! ;D Please take all the pot-shots you wish at my posts!! I want to be eavesdropping on the relationship talk, even if I'm squirming, but the other? Well, I won't go there...... Besides, a girl could go down in flames for thinking that way here! Now, let's see if I can do some deep thought tonight....
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