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Post by Patcat on Feb 20, 2009 9:22:43 GMT -5
An early bird special. This episode will air at 2pm (EST) on March 2 on the USA Network, but I thought the recent discussion of this eleventh episode of the first season indicated interest in this story.
First aired January 16, 2002.
Written by Rene Balcer (a rare solo effort)
Directed by Constantine Makris
Guest Actors: Robert Stanton as Dennis Griscom (Mr. Stanton portrayed one of the boyfriends in HAPPY ACCIDENTS, where Mr. D'Onofrio plays a visitor from the future.)
Synopsis: The murder of a doctor who performs abortions put Goren and Eames in a race to catch the killer.
Quotes:
Eames: "Three witnesses, including "God", saw a male, white, come out of the woods near the 97th Street Transverse."
Eames: "From locks to lock 'n' load." Deakins: "Nest step for Mr. Griscom is lockup."
Carver: "This is a murder case. Let's not turn it into a litmus test for abortion." Eames: "Sounds like it already is."
Goren (to Mr. MacLeish about his and his wife's philosophy): "There's no hypocrisy to it. No double standard."
Deakins: "This guy has a death wish and he's going to take somebody down with him." Eames: "We can always hope that he gets the order mixed up and shoot himself first."
Eames (to Cutler): "Maybe you only read the parts of the Bible you like. I remember that God stopped Abraham."
Cutler: "You take orders from that lady?" Goren: "She's got seniority. You know these women on the force, they come with an extra set of brass ones."
Eames: "Suspicious dust balls?" Goren: "It's spun glass, commonly used to make silencers."
Goren: "True believers expect everyone to think like them."
Eames: "What do you really think?" Goren: "I'll tell you what I think when I get pregnant." Eames: "You're gonna have to do a lot better than that, Bobby." Goren: "Okay. Life is full of uncertainty. People need to have options. Abortion has to be one of those options."
Eames: "We have a sketch of Ma and Pa Kettle's houseguest."
Eames: "Promise me a margarita when this is all over."
Attorney: "He's invoking his right to be silent." Eames: "He doesn't have the right to be deaf, so he'll have to listen to what we have to say."
Goren: "Might help if you had a firing pin."
Questions and Comments:
Abortion is a very hot topic. Did LOCI take a risk in using it as the basis of an episode? How well does this episode represent the various stands on this issue?
Does the victim get lost in this story?
How do Goren and Eames react to Mrs. Cavella?
Why did Dennis choose Dr. Cavella?
Does Bobby genuinely admire the MacLeishes?
Will the MacLeishes be charged with anything? Are they guilty of anything?
Does this case hit Alex particularly hard? If so, why?
Does this episode cop out by making Dennis' opposition to abortion based on his personal situation?
What turned Dennis into an avenging murderer?
How did Dennis and Susan become so serious without the subject of children coming up?
Are Eames and Griscom so different in their views that they exist in completely different worlds?
What is Carver's position on abortion? Would he have been able to prosecute Dennis?
Would Dennis have been scarier if he hadn't had a personal reason to oppose abortion?
Will Dennis be handed over to the Feds? Will he get the death penalty?
Was Dennis seeking suicide by cop?
Why is it so important to take Dennis alive?
Somewhat off topic, but a related issue--What do you think Bobby and Alex's positions are regarding the death penalty?
Comments: In the midst of what I think is a realistic, remarkably fair handling of a very controversial subject, this episode also contains a solid depiction of an investigation. There's some crime scene investigations, computer research, Goren insight and Eames' leg work, and a complicated perpetrator. Robert Stanton is excellent as Dennis Griscom The only thing this episode lacks is (aside from Eames' margarita comment) the dark humor that accompanies many of the best LOCI stories. We get to see Goren undercover. For once, we get an attorney who actually challenges the detectives. This is also an episode where Kathryn Erbe's Alex Eames takes center stage, and Ms. Erbe is terrific in conveying Eames' anger and frustration. There's also insight into the Goren/Eames relationship. Compare Goren's honest response when Eames presses him on his views on abortion with Carver's smooth evasiveness. (I know a lot of people feel Carver is anti-abortion, but I can't tell from his words if he's opposed or merely a politician hedging his bets.) And we receive a guest appearance by Zach, the computer geek.
Humbly submitted for your comments and consideration.
Patcat
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Post by tjara on Mar 4, 2009 5:23:19 GMT -5
Since I can never not voice my oppinion ;D , I'd like to answer some of your questions, Patcat. I waited until others got a chance to see the ep, but now I really feel like replying...
I think there's a basic coverage of various sides, but not exactly an in-depth depiction of any of them. I think they did fairly well, but since Dennis didn't turn out to be a fanatic just for the cause, there wasn't the need to explain his position very thoroughly, and also therefore there wasn't a need to kinda "counter" Dennis viewpoint.
In a way, yes. Third Horseman really is a classic Whydunit, there's not much Whodunit. I think Goren's got Griscoms name before half of the show is over, and from then on, the story is about Griscom, not about Cavella. And since there was no connection between Cavella and Griscom, Cavella gets lost.
I think it was a matter of "opportunity". Griscom walks the line between revenge for his own good and killing for the cause. Also, he seems to have qualms about killing, so maybe it kinda was "his test". He needed to know he could do it.
It's never clearly stated, and since I share the McLeishes view, I may be biased, but my feeling was that he does. He likes consistent positions, and I also think that Bobby, besides all what he has been through, cerishes life.
I don't think they'll be charged with anything - as for guilty, I'm unsure. Dennis fooled them, I don't think they would've helped him if they knew what he was up to.
My fanfiction self could come up with scenario, but I think it was written in the way she was to emphasize how strong she is. This is consistent with her character, a strong, independant woman. She had to put up with so many nasty men, some who's views on woman weren't worth a dime. And in Vice she's probably seen "ruined" existences because the women couldn't have and abortion.
Yes, in a way, it does. Although, Denis didn't acquire this position because of Susan having an abortion. He was against abortion before that, at least that was my understanding. It was part of his religious upbringing.
I guess helplessness. He tried to prevent Susan from having an abortion, but he realized that he had to fight the system, because in his view the system was flawed. And I can even understand the "male point of view" in that scenario. I mean really as a guy, you don't get a choice. Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting women should be made to have kids they don't want to (though in this day and age there's ways not to get pregnant, IMHO!), but I can understand the pain of a man who feels helpless on that issue.
Actually, they talked about this. It was then that Dennis revealed to her that he wanted to "have many kids and help the poor". I think she kinda thought she could change him, maybe, but then she got pregnant...
I think Griscom does. Alex has a belief, and she stands up and fights for it, yet I don't think she gets blindsided by it. Alex isn't a fanatic. Griscom is, and part of being a fanatic is to focus solely on that issue, to see nothing else or to just wipe away "facts" that contradict your points. When Goren says "True believers want everyone to think like them" there's a whole lot of truth to that statement.
I think Carver is against abortion, but probably knows it can't be prohibited. He would prefer women to take on other options, though. He's professional enough to prosecute Dennis, because justice is first for him.
Yes, I'd say so...
Why would he be handed over to the feds? I don't know enough to say whether he'd get the death penalty.
I think Dennis intended to kill himself after shooting the judge, anyway. He was wrapping things up before that. When he saw his plan fall apart, and he couldn't kill the judge, he just decided to kill himself.
So justice be done? I don't really know, but usually you want to humiliate the villains and see them being taken alive. Death (and suicide more so) always seems to be an out. I even get that feeling in "Suite Sorrow".
Uuuooh - tough question and a touchy issue. I'm not sure how much my own view on the issue might taint what I think (like to think?) about them. Both are not beyond threatening suspects with the death penalty.
I think Alex isn't 100% decided. She holds deep contempt for some criminals, so maybe she thinks that some deserve it. But then she's worked in Vice, and she's seen enough of the justice system to know it's not that easy.
I think Bobby is opposed to the death penalty. He generally a well informed guy, so I think he'd know those deterence statistics and the wrong convicition statistics etc. He knows the faults in the justice system and he studies the psychology of perps, which could breed a certain kind of understanding and "sympathy" for them. I did see his appreciation of the McLeishes view. Generally, I think he's carved out to be a "liberal, educated, well informed man" - someone who would be opposed to the death penalty. Then I think about whether Mark Ford Brady changed any of his view on that matter. Maybe the Goren of Season one thinks differently about it than the later Goren...
On a sidenote: I remember reading somewhere that many cops are opposed to the death penalty.
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Post by Patcat on Mar 4, 2009 9:33:56 GMT -5
Thanks for responding to this posting, Tjara, with your well written thoughts.
Many cops are opposed to the death penalty, some because they know the problems of the justice system, and some because they think it's too easy of a punishment for many criminals.
Some states are now reconsidering the death penalty, not because of moral grounds, but because death penalty cases cost the state far more than keeping a man in prison for life.
Patcat
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Post by tjara on Mar 5, 2009 4:01:04 GMT -5
Yeah, I remember reading about that, too. And it doesn't surprise me, all the appeals that a defendant goes through...
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Post by idget on Mar 5, 2009 11:38:59 GMT -5
Hi all! Well, here is my first post (not counting the welcome thread) so here it goes! This has become one of my favorite episodes. I think Goren and Eames are really starting to work well together and starting to trust each other's instincts. Abortion is a very hot topic. Did LOCI take a risk in using it as the basis of an episode? How well does this episode represent the various stands on this issue? I think it was probably more riskier at the time this episode was made than now. It seems to me that this issue doesn't seem to get the same amount of press it once did. Hopefully because their hasn't been any bombings or killings recently. I think LOCI was more balanced than most shows I have seen on this topic, but I do think it tended to skew more towards pro choice than pro life Does the victim get lost in this story? I think so. The Dr's widow and Child figure prominently at the beginning, but except for a comment made by Eames about the child later in the episode, it totally focuses on Griscom for the final 2/3rds of the show How do Goren and Eames react to Mrs. Cavella? They are both visibly moved by her and seem to be at a loss of words. (which is unlike them, esp. Goren) Why did Dennis choose Dr. Cavella? He was on the abortion web site hit list, but other than that I don't know. Does Bobby genuinely admire the MacLeishes? I think he does, in his interview with Mr. Macleish he is soft spoken, stays seated and treats him with respect. When Goren doesn't like somebody he is often loud, bombastic and walking around the room to keep the suspect off kilter. Will the MacLeishes be charged with anything? Are they guilty of anything? The only thing I can think of is not letting the police into their home. It might be part of their probation that they have to let the police in when they come calling. It may be weird locking yourself to your radiator isn't against the law. Does this case hit Alex particularly hard? If so, why? I think so. Usually she has no trouble being a female in a male dominated profession, but i think she was really feeling it in this episode. Cause lets face it a man can have no clue how it feels to be young, alone and pregnant. Does this episode cop out by making Dennis' opposition to abortion based on his personal situation? Maybe, but since this show is about criminal intent I guess they felt they needed have a twist on it. What turned Dennis into an avenging murderer? Not sure, why after so many years he decided to act now. Maybe he was getting older and has had no more intimate relationships and realized his only chance of being a parent was behind him. But that seems pretty lame. How did Dennis and Susan become so serious without the subject of children coming up? I think Dennis was more serious than Susan and his reaction to her wanting an abortion opened her eyes. Are Eames and Griscom so different in their views that they exist in completely different worlds? Unfortunately it's impossible to exist in to two different worlds, because I know some people I would like to put there. But I don't think they would ever come to an understanding or even a polite agree to disagree. What is Carver's position on abortion? Would he have been able to prosecute Dennis? I think like all good lawyers he kept his true opinion to himself and he would have no problem prosecuting Griscom, especially if it bought him fame and recognition. Would Dennis have been scarier if he hadn't had a personal reason to oppose abortion? I think so. He looked so normal, that a guy like him could so coldly shoot someone in front of their child was scary. Will Dennis be handed over to the Feds? Will he get the death penalty? If this was a real case, it probably would have been handled by the feds to begin with. Was Dennis seeking suicide by cop? Probably, it seems like the cowards way out. Why is it so important to take Dennis alive? Is it? I didn't feel the urgency to get him alive more than any other of their cases. The both seem to always want to catch the bad guy alive. Somewhat off topic, but a related issue--What do you think Bobby and Alex's positions are regarding the death penalty? I am not sure about Eames but I would guess she is for the death penalty esp. if a cop was killed. I get the feeling that Goren is against the death penalty.
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Post by Patcat on Mar 5, 2009 11:51:34 GMT -5
Idget--thanks for your well thought out responses.
Patcat (who likes to know that all her hard work ain't been in vain for nothing (g))--Actually, it's not that hard by any means.
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Post by tjara on Mar 5, 2009 12:52:30 GMT -5
Thanks for the answer's, idget! Interesting to hear someone else on this. I don't think Dennis was planning suicide by cop. He had planned to kill himself even before that. He was gonna shoot and then jump, when he didn't get to shoot he would just jump.
On a sidenote - Patcat, don't you think for a minute that I'll be ignoring your threads about "Poison" and "The Extra Man". I love your questions and the effort you put into those threads, so I'll gladly answer when I get the chance! (Whether you want to view that as a promise or a "threat" is your choice ;D )
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Post by DonnaJo on Mar 6, 2009 11:10:05 GMT -5
Excellent thoughts, tjara and idget. I agree that Dennis was planning on committing suicide after murdering the judge, but not by jumping off the building immediately after wards. By putting his affairs in order, such as giving Susan his fathers dog tags, I believe he was planning a more thought out, elaborate suicide. Perhaps he was going to hang himself in front of an abortion clinic. Something with a message. When he realized that he was going to be arrested, he knew that he had no choice but to jump. If he was serious, he would have, and no trick by Goren would have worked.
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Post by Patcat on Mar 13, 2009 8:53:04 GMT -5
There was some discussion on another thread about Goren's answer to Eames about abortion and whether he told her the truth about his feelings on the subject. My take is that after attempting to brush away her question with a glib answer, he responded as honestly as he could. I don't think there's any evasiveness about his final answer. I can't imagine that anyone would think abortion is an easy thing to consider. Bobby's response--that people need options in life--strikes me as a well-thought out answer to a difficult question. When he realized how important the question was to Eames, he responded with his real feelings.
What if Bobby were opposed to abortion and told Eames that? Is Eames, with her support of a right to aborion, not open to discussion about the issue?
Patcat
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Post by tjara on Mar 13, 2009 9:27:54 GMT -5
Hey, I get the "strange" feeling that Bobby has difficulty with "killings" of any kind. So while he really believes that abortion should be an option, he'd like other options considered first. You get what I mean? Also, when he talked to Susan about Dennis, I had the feeling he understood Dennis, that he understood the male perspective. Maybe though I'm just projecting my own thoughts into his mind.
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Post by Patcat on Mar 13, 2009 10:08:37 GMT -5
Oh, I think you're right on both counts, Tjara. I suspect Bobby would look for another option--having the baby, adoption--before abortion. But, in the end, he recognizes that a woman has the ultimate decision and that not every one can deal with those other options.
The thought comes to me that, given the circumstances of his conception and the difficulties of his family, Bobby might not be here if abortion had been legal. Of course, he didn't know that at the time of THE THIRD HORSEMAN.
Patcat
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Post by tjara on Mar 13, 2009 10:25:00 GMT -5
Hmmm, I don't know. Frances said she never knew for certrain, so maybe she didn't think about abortion or rather she dismissed the issue of paternity and told Goren Sr. he was the father all the while making herself believe the same. I do think that even if abortion wasn't legal, there were places a woman could turn to, even in the 1960s.
Also, it's not sure how "violent" Brady was at the point. The famous car accident was when Bobby was four, so maybe Brady was quite the gentleman before that? I doubt that she would've continued seeing him if he had been violent before that, and Frances stopped seeing Brady after the car accident.
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Post by idget on Mar 13, 2009 17:57:37 GMT -5
Tjara, I think you are right in regards to Bobby not liking killing of any kind. I think he has a great regard to the sanctity of all life. I also don't think Frances would have had an abortion. Bobby once mentioned he was a lapsed alter boy so I always assumed that Frances was a practicing catholic up until her first break with schizophrenia, and I can't see a married practicing catholic in the 60's seeking out an abortion.
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Post by outerbankschick on Mar 13, 2009 20:28:51 GMT -5
Oh, I think you're right on both counts, Tjara. I suspect Bobby would look for another option--having the baby, adoption--before abortion. But, in the end, he recognizes that a woman has the ultimate decision and that not every one can deal with those other options. Patcat That is what I was getting at, along with what Tjara said about him having issues with "killing" of any kind. It is possible for one to not like the idea of abortion without condemning those who may look to it as an option. So his feelings were for real, but he did not elaborate in a way that would put him at odds with Alex. This is just my opinion of course, and I believe she'd certainly be open to a discussion. It also seems that there really didn't need to be a discussion about it because, essentially, they're both on the same side of the issue. It just struck me that he answered her the way he did. I didn't think he was being evasive or dishonest, just that he was keeping his tone very neutral. And the fact of Frances being a practicing Catholic, and raising both of her sons in the church, would certainly enter into it as well. He would have had an upbringing that discouraged abortion in all cases and as he grew up and ventured into the world, he formed his own opinions about it.
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Post by tjara on Mar 14, 2009 5:35:14 GMT -5
Hmmm - actually I think they're very much on the same page. While I do think that Alex relates to the issue differently, I'm not sure whether her standing up for abortion rights should be counted as her not having problems with the "killing of a live". She did have troubles with the shooting in Homo homini lupus, and while she probably thinks differently about abortion, I think her anger was more about Women's rights being infringed. She's a small lady in a "male enviroment", it would make sense if she had issues with men who think that they can determine what happens to women.
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