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Post by tjara on Apr 22, 2009 2:03:33 GMT -5
Maybe that's why he had company/entourage - in case he'd run into Goren at OnePP! I mean you never know what that whack-job is up to, right? ;D
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Post by Moonbeam on Apr 22, 2009 7:58:56 GMT -5
Right!
I've been thinking, maybe the episode would have been more compelling if Stacey's pill popping mother had orchestrated the whole thing? She could have pulled a "Zaner" ( Enemy Within) and brought down the Fitzgerld family for what they did to her daughter.
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Post by Patcat on Apr 22, 2009 11:23:11 GMT -5
Moonbeam--now that's an interesting idea. But ENEMY WITHIN is one of the stellar LOCI episodes.
People like the Chief of Ds always seem to have an entourage. I'm actually suprised that Hayes-Fitzgerald didn't have one.
As for Ross, I think he's gone through a major shift in his attitude towards Goren (He's always seemed to get along with Eames and to even be protective of her.) The crucial scene for me came in PURGATORY when Goren met with Ross at Olivet's office. When Goren says, "I may be paranoid," and tells Ross that he's thought that the Chief might be trying to get him killed, Ross doesn't dismiss the idea. I think Goren is also trying to cooperate more with Ross. It's a fairly subtle thing that I hope continues.
Patcat
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LO:CI
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 141
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Post by LO:CI on Apr 22, 2009 13:10:36 GMT -5
OK, I just got to sea this one and I really liked it. Probably because it reminded me quite a lot of the "old" LO:CI without being too much (which would have been unbelievable after the last season). Also I liked that Goren looked better than lately (no beard and the shorter hair).
I thought the french dialect was funny but unfortunately I didn't undertand a word what he said. Can someone help me?
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Post by DonnaJo on Apr 22, 2009 13:28:40 GMT -5
If memory serves, Goren said that "a print out would be in order" in a faux french accent. I haven't yet commented on how much I enjoyed Jeffan's review. As a new viewer of the series, with no inflated affection for Goren or Eames, Jeffan's comments were insightful & complementary. ;D And Susan1212......your beautiful thoughts about Goren's heart being constant & ever present regardless of how he looks or acts.....it made me feel like I've been very shallow lately. It's true - when we look into his tired, bloodshot eyes, the soul of a good man shines deep within. I'll try to remember that.
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LO:CI
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 141
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Post by LO:CI on Apr 22, 2009 14:01:56 GMT -5
If memory serves, Goren said that "a print out would be in order" in a faux french accent. Thanks, I think I understand now: A printout would do. (could that be?)
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Post by DonnaJo on Apr 22, 2009 14:12:10 GMT -5
That's it!! I got it half right. ;D
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Post by nomoreexcuses on Apr 22, 2009 14:19:32 GMT -5
And Susan1212......your beautiful thoughts about Goren's heart being constant & ever present regardless of how he looks or acts.....it made me feel like I've been very shallow lately. It's true - when we look into his tired, bloodshot eyes, the soul of a good man shines deep within. I'll try to remember that. I'm fairly new to the series though because all seasons seems to airing everywhere on my cable service I've been able to do a lot of catching up. My fondness for the show isn't based on being in love with Bobby Goren so I'm having a hard time grasping why fans here who adore him continue to make excuses for all of the changes in the show, the character and the actor. Especially when even they admit that those changes haven't all been for the best. Is it simply a case of "love is blind"? If I was a hardcore Vincent D'Onofrio fan, I'd be outraged by the ho-hum script he had to work with in "Playing Dead." Doesn't he deserve better dialogue and better stories? If I was so devoted to D'Onofrio or Goren I know I'd expect more of him, not less. Why not you Susan1212 or you DonnaJo? I really want to know. nme
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Post by nomoreexcuses on Apr 22, 2009 14:29:12 GMT -5
Also, about the writing: It seems like the fans here who know the show intimately all pretty much agree that Rene Balcer was its best storyteller. From what I understand it's still very uncertain that L&O original will be back next year. If not, does anyone think Mr. Balcer would return to Criminal Intent?
nme
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Post by Patcat on Apr 22, 2009 14:35:37 GMT -5
You ask some good questions, nomorexcuses, some I ask myself. So good, that I think we may need another thread. So, check the general discussions...
Patcat
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Post by DonnaJo on Apr 22, 2009 14:59:25 GMT -5
If I was so devoted to D'Onofrio or Goren I know I'd expect more of him, not less. Why not you Susan1212 or you DonnaJo? I really want to know. nme You obviously haven't read any of my dozens of posts knocking VDO's portrayal of Goren, nme. There are plenty. My point here was that I agree with Susan that deep down, the character is still a good man, and that VDO does try to convey that. I agree with you that he (the character & the actor) deserve better scripts, so we don't HAVE to resort to looking beyond what is being presented to find what was more obvious in Seasons 1-4. Does this make sense? It's hard to explain. And I don't consider myself a drool fan of VDO, that's for sure.
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Post by unsteady on Apr 22, 2009 15:41:59 GMT -5
And Susan1212......your beautiful thoughts about Goren's heart being constant & ever present regardless of how he looks or acts.....it made me feel like I've been very shallow lately. It's true - when we look into his tired, bloodshot eyes, the soul of a good man shines deep within. I'll try to remember that. I'm fairly new to the series though because all seasons seems to airing everywhere on my cable service I've been able to do a lot of catching up. My fondness for the show isn't based on being in love with Bobby Goren so I'm having a hard time grasping why fans here who adore him continue to make excuses for all of the changes in the show, the character and the actor. Especially when even they admit that those changes haven't all been for the best. Is it simply a case of "love is blind"? If I was a hardcore Vincent D'Onofrio fan, I'd be outraged by the ho-hum script he had to work with in "Playing Dead." Doesn't he deserve better dialogue and better stories? If I was so devoted to D'Onofrio or Goren I know I'd expect more of him, not less. Why not you Susan1212 or you DonnaJo? I really want to know. nme I personally will say that the last episode disappointed me, but I didn't see a fault in VDO's performance. That's probably what all of us does, we blame the script before the actor.
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Post by unsteady on Apr 22, 2009 16:33:29 GMT -5
And Susan1212......your beautiful thoughts about Goren's heart being constant & ever present regardless of how he looks or acts.....it made me feel like I've been very shallow lately. It's true - when we look into his tired, bloodshot eyes, the soul of a good man shines deep within. I'll try to remember that. Whoaaaa! Now you're even creeping me out, DonnaJ! (trust me, nme, DJ really does possess discernment. Read more posts) Every attribute Susan ascribes to Bobby actually can be ascribed to every American TV lead, from Ben Cartwright to (enter every Western hero here), to Patrick Jane and both Admiral Adamas. Jeez, even Flipper qualifies. It's pretty wet, but to each her own. The lone exception is Lucas Buck (that's Buck with a B), which is probably why CBS supremo Les Moonves said at the time "I don't get this show". And if you believe the horse's mouth. VDO never he wanted to show Mr Kind and Wonderful. Read the Jeanne Marie Laskas Esquire piece again. It's a landmark now in profiling lore, not just VDO land. Anyhow, what D'Onofrio enthusiastically said he wanted to shine through was not goodness, or white knightness, or hope or love or peace, or nuthin'. He wanted you to see that the character was "fuc$ked up" and adds the famous "but you'll never see his mother." It was not only the great statement about how he would play Goren, but how he wouldn't play him. Screwy and interesting, not a neckless lump of neurotic lethargy. This is the guy who played Pooh Bear and Pyle and the Bug, for godssakes, and a dozen other great anti-hero or villains. He really knocks it out of the park, ole VDO at being really crazybad good, and when he adds handsome hero sex appeal to the mix, you get a character that could attract both Susan and myself, people as far apart intellectually as we are. Goodness and kindness and and gentleness and whatever uber-sensitive qualities Susan and others personally need to project onto the work of fiction that is Robert Goren are just that, personal projection for personal need. We all should have places to go to where we can suspend every critical faculty and just believe. The clicheed "Whatever" suits that choice , indeed. I hate this forum. If Bobby Goren were an anti-hero, we'd all know it. Also, Bobby ha shown multiple instances of being good. He is good. Rene Balcer was excellent in showing a goodness in Goren that, well, really stands out for me. The man's a hero for Christ's sake. I'll agree that he is fuc$ked up, but I'll also argue that througout the series, he's been a good man. I'll speculate here that Bobby Goren might have anti-hero tendancies that he represses constantly. If you are trying to say that, I appolozise for jumping down your throat.
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Post by dragonsback on Apr 22, 2009 16:41:26 GMT -5
I said nothing of the sort. I said that VDO excels at anti-heroes, and when he finally comes into the role of a full-on hero, he reels in every type of fan.
As for Balcer, writing a "good man" is so bloody simple that a junior high kid could do it. It's getting the f**k$ed up part just right that takes a master (two - Balcer and VDO together).
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Post by unsteady on Apr 22, 2009 16:47:13 GMT -5
I said nothing of the sort. I said that VDO excels at anti-heroes, and when he finally comes into the role of a full-on hero, he reels in every type of fan. As for Balcer, writing a "good man" is so bloody simple that a junior high kid could do it. It's getting the f**k$ed up part just right that takes a master (two - Balcer and VDO together). Yeah, I didn't read the whole post. I didn't see what else you had written. I'm sorry. I
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