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Post by Techguy on Apr 6, 2010 22:11:06 GMT -5
Too much about the pirates, coups, weapons, and terrorists and not enough about the major players.
I wished I felt something more about how Goren and Eames make their final exits but it just isn't there. I can't put my finger on it, but I felt more a sense of detachment than a real connection. Maybe all the subplots and the bodies piling up got in the way of my understanding and feeling. I felt empty rather than being fulfilled.
I liked how Zach Nichols planted the thought into Hasan's evil connving brain about how he (Hasan) might end up down the road, and how he (Nichols) will see it on CNN or read about it in the paper. People like Hasan deserve whatever karma comes their way. His "victory" is Pyrrhic and he knows it.
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angua
Detective
Posts: 281
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Post by angua on Apr 6, 2010 22:18:38 GMT -5
I'm sorry you didn't like it Tech, but I thought it was completely moving, I didn't even have to make myself like it. It was just there.
If anyone doesn't like the Hug, watch out.
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Post by peterinmanhattan on Apr 6, 2010 22:25:09 GMT -5
Techguy, I agree with you about the balance in the story, but also to rebut the argument: hasn't good ole classic CI favoured the plot over the personal even when long-time characters are departing?
I truly felt emotional during the last scene. Bobby's kiss was in my mind, totally in-step with his character. He was a consummate gentleman to the end, especially to the woman who has stood up for his "acquired taste" for eight and a half long years.
It seems as though my fears regarding Nichols being "fluffy" have been alleviated. He and Stevens seemed to prove their dramatic mettle, and based on next week's promo they seem to continue in that vein.
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Post by DonnaJo on Apr 6, 2010 22:28:58 GMT -5
I'm confused. Goren is fired for getting physical with a perp. Something that Elliot Stabler does to every rapist/child molester he encounters during an investigation. Yet Goren is fired by the same C of D's. Is that what happened?
Was Goren offered an opportunity to work with the FBI on this arms plan? I couldn't tell if the FBI chick admired Goren or thought he was a nut job.
Eames fires Goren as the temp Captain, and then resigns from the NYPD? That's insane. No wonder Erbe was upset. At least there was the friendship kiss and hug. That scene felt so real and genuine. To me, I was seeing Vince and Kate stripped of their characters, just saying goodbye to each other and to nine years of working together.
I was impressed with Saffron Burrows. Couldn't hear her accent at all, and she came across as smart, tough and effective. Like Techguy, my favorite moment was Zack telling the son that his assassination is inevitable.
I thought the sister gave it all up too easily at the end. Didn't fit with the character, who was as ambitious as her brother and who didn't seem to care all that much for the father that she never knew.
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Post by outerbankschick on Apr 6, 2010 22:29:14 GMT -5
TG, I really, really liked that part there with Nichols and Hassan. That was so well done. I think the writing could have been much better in some respects. I really didn't like that quick little - oh, by the way, Eames took the Lieutenant's exam and now we're going to promote her to temporary Captain for the express purpose of forcing her to fire her partner. That was a bit lame, IMO. But alas, played so well. The rest of it I'm still digesting. I did think the weapon story in the end was too rushed. They could have written that better, too. From the moment the FBI grabbed Goren, there should have been more focus on that... Vincent and Kathryn played that scene beautifully in the end. More tears for me, of course. I'm a sap. So sue me. And Eames gets a huge high five from me for voicing my exact thoughts: "You're the best. You always will be." Many imitators, but only one originator. Detective Bobby Goren. And damn, what would he have done all these years without Detective Alex Eames? He couldn't have done it all without her and neither could I. Gonna miss them both. Good thing I've got the DVD's.
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angua
Detective
Posts: 281
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Post by angua on Apr 6, 2010 22:32:35 GMT -5
I knew when I saw that Barbara Hall had written it, that it would not suck.
AL, she's a regular of L&O, right?
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Post by Techguy on Apr 6, 2010 22:36:05 GMT -5
angua: I thought the hug and kiss gratuitious. I saw the actors, not Goren and Eames. Blame it on my detachment or whatever. It is what it is.
@peter: I have no problem with plot taking precedence over personal angst and melodrama. The problem here is too many confusing details and subplots to the Ross murder. My attention wandered, thereby contributing to my detachment.
@donnajo: Confusion and detachment are what I'm left with. Hopefully after a second viewing of both episodes in a single session, some of the cloud layer around my brain will dissipate and I'll be enlightened. Or, maybe not.
@obc: Ah, there are some points we can agree on, as you state in the first half of your post.
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Post by outerbankschick on Apr 6, 2010 22:40:47 GMT -5
I think a second viewing of both episodes, one right after the other, might help for the continuity. I thought the performances were on point, all the way around.
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Post by Patcat on Apr 7, 2010 8:01:53 GMT -5
I'm going to post my impressions before reading other people's comments, so I apologize for any duplications.
Eames: "Oh, it's fun here."
I found that I didn't care anything about the unduly complicated, overly self important plot. Although I was surpised that Hassan didn't kill his blonde lover (who I thought was going to end up dead from the first moment I saw her) and that he arranged for his father's death.
Why all these women named Serena in the L&O world?
Nichols: "See. It is fun here."
Eames: "I really feel like I should try to talk you out of this." Goren: "That's never worked before."
So, is Goren suicidal or just resigned?
Wouldn't the money guy have had better security to protect him from people like Goren? I found myself torn between Goren's efficiency in getting physical and being troubled by it.
Nichols: "Miss the opportunity to wear a trench coat with the collar turned up?"
I like Stevens and the way she and Nichols work together. (It almost distracts me from Goren and Eames. Almost.) True, she doesn't have much of a personality yet.
Eames: "What's weird is that you can read Urdu."
Goren: "Do not question my love of my country."
But, finally, it was all highly unsatisfactory, aside from that hug. I can't really accept Bobby and Alex accepting the FBI's reasons for letting Hassan go. While I liked Nichols' final speech to Hassan--and Goldblum's delivery of it--I wanted more justice for the man who killed Ross. I'm still not exactly sure what Bobby is doing with/for the FBI. And if Alex is leaving the NYPD, why didn't she force the Brass to fire Bobby?
The hug, though...Well, some of us have been waiting for something like that for a long, long time. And I don't think we're all dewey-eyed romantics. I suppose some people will think it's too much of a sop to some fans, but I didn't see that. I saw a nod to fans, a good by between two good friends (Goren and Eames, and Mr. D'Onofrio and Ms. Erbe). Everything about this episode should've been so good.
Patcat
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Post by tere on Apr 7, 2010 8:30:52 GMT -5
But, finally, it was all highly unsatisfactory, aside from that hug. I can't really accept Bobby and Alex accepting the FBI's reasons for letting Hassan go. While I liked Nichols' final speech to Hassan--and Goldblum's delivery of it--I wanted more justice for the man who killed Ross. I'm still not exactly sure what Bobby is doing with/for the FBI. And if Alex is leaving the NYPD, why didn't she force the Brass to fire Bobby? The hug, though...Well, some of us have been waiting for something like that for a long, long time. And I don't think we're all dewey-eyed romantics. I suppose some people will think it's too much of a sop to some fans, but I didn't see that. I saw a nod to fans, a good by between two good friends (Goren and Eames, and Mr. D'Onofrio and Ms. Erbe). Everything about this episode should've been so good. Patcat I agree. This part rushed through plot details as fast as it could to get to the end. I'm going to have to watch the end again because I couldn't decide whether Eames was actually firing Goren or just trying to explain what she was expected to do. If she intended to quit, why not tell him after the fact? Or did she quit on the spur of the moment? The scene was well done but I found it a little odd in the context of 8 years.
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Post by annabelleleigh on Apr 7, 2010 9:22:50 GMT -5
TG, once again you've hit it on the head. Detachment. It was written into the script: Goren out of uniform at Ross's funeral; Goren lines like "it doesn't matter anymore" sprinkled throughout the script.
Think: When -- after the hallway confrontation with the FBI agents -- Eames says it's "bad" Goren says "No, it's good." It's good because Goren is trying to get himself fired. It's too hard simply to walk away -- and yet it's over. Goren has nothing left to give the NYPD, just as VDO has exhausted his contributions to Bobby Goren and CI.
That's the only way (for me) that the end makes sense. The actor chose detachment as his mode of egress.
And Erbe/Eames? She told us why she took the interim captain job for the moments it took to fire Goren: it was the kinder thing than throwing him into the jaws of the Chief of Ds.
That's our Eames -- taking one last painful shot for her partner. Clearly it killed her to be the instrument of Goren's dismissal. But without him -- logically no reason to stay. That's what I think Erbe wanted conveyed in that last scene.
I found honesty and richness in this end to our dear detectives. Not because of the somewhat clumsy kiss and hug but because I think somewhere in those last lines of almost nine years art imitated life.
AL
P.S. Angua, Barbara Hall has had a long distinguished career writing for television but she has never before contributed to an L&O drama.
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Post by jaquimichel on Apr 7, 2010 9:50:20 GMT -5
I rated this episode average. Goren pissing off the wrong people but this time no one to save him. The story and acting came up short. D'Onofrio and Erbe's acting was stilted, as if they had already left the characters behind. My biggest concern was how the writers would treat Eames. I was disappointed that even in the end she's catering to Goren and sacrificing her career. The line "You're the best. You always will be" was not moving, it was eye-roll inducing.
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Post by Patcat on Apr 7, 2010 9:51:55 GMT -5
Al;
I agree with your take on Goren's actions. They seem to me to be the acts of a man who's resigned to his fate. Your explanation also clears up Eames' actions.
I thought the kiss and hug's clumsiness to be true to the scene. Goren and Eames don't do this sort of thing, and they don't know quite how to do it.
Patcat
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Post by tjill on Apr 7, 2010 9:56:25 GMT -5
Well, at least Ross went out with a BANG instead of a WHIMPER! I am extremely sorry I cannot say the same for Goren and Eames!
I think the story concept for the ending of the episode, goodbye to Goren and Eames after eight years, was handled quite poorly, particularly when they know that Goren has always fascinated the viewers on a much higher level than the typical L&O franchise detective. Eames has been a stalwart of the series since the beginning (with just a brief break) and also deserved better. The sudden bum’s rush did not sit well with me at all. Did anyone time how long that scene lasted? Barely anything. It was a very poor and disrespectful farewell to two solid long-term performers.
I would have felt much better about the ending if Goren had decided to leave on his own instead of being “gently fired” by his partner (who was not even actually in the Captain role yet) in what must be the absolutely quickest, no union lawyer, no paperwork, no taking away of the ID badge, etc., firing in the entire history of the NYPD; possibly in the entire history of the entire New York State Civil Service Commission! I agree with the person who felt that it was disingenuous for him to be fired for what Stabler gets away with in many episodes … manhandling a suspect and not strictly following the Department’s party line. That was a cheap “no think” way for the writers to handle it when the viewer knows better. The scene and the concept for the firing had no authenticity whosoever. Of course, the performances were very touching with Goren trying to make Eames feel better and the kiss goodbye, but that’s not what I am complaining about. It’s the lack of realism and lack of respect for the viewer’s intelligence. Again, I cannot fault the performances! When Eames tells Goren, “You will always be the best,” the look on his face was like, “Yeah and now I will never do my job again, so …” The part where Goren tells Eames, “See you around …” with his ID badge still hanging around his neck was so awkward. It just left me with a bad feeling about what is going to happen to Goren now. Then, after Goren leaves, Eames compounds the disaster by abruptly calling the Captain and telling him she would not be taking the Captain’s test after all. Eames places her gun and badge on the desk, so we know she is not just rejecting a promotion, but quitting altogether, and that’s it. The Eames I know wouldn’t have been a “yes” woman for them in the first place. I don’t think Eames would have mousily agreed to fire Goren, but instead would have rebelled against the brass and tried to persuade them that Goren was worth keeping, yet the writers just barreled on, making her behave totally unlike her character of eight years in their haste to finish Goren and Eames off almost as an afterthought.
The ending tends to leave me disgruntled towards LOCI and towards the new cast (even though it is definitely not their fault how things turned out).
How could this have been handled better?
I would have had a good sense of closure if Goren chose to leave on his own, preferably with dignity, so the viewer could at least have a feeling that Goren has something else to do and isn’t totally lost out there somewhere. Then I could look upon the new cast more benevolently as in the torch has now been passed to them and they will carry on the good work, instead of how I now look at them: as interlopers. There were many ways this could have been done:
Goren decides to work for himself as a private detective; Goren decides to take a sabbatical and/or go back to school; Goren decides to relocate and leaves NYC; or even Goren runs off with Nicole to a tropical island … a very twisted ending, but we could at least think of him as (hopefully) being happy with his beautiful beloved … serial killer (provided she doesn’t kill him) …
In short, there were a lot of ways to handle this more gracefully and more respectfully to both the long-term actors and to the audience.
As for Eames, I would have preferred she stay a bit longer as a familiar face on the show.
Now we have only three primary cast members … one that is familiar and two totally new. Although I am very happy with Jeff Goldblum’s performances so far and the new detective introduced in this episode seems promising, I just think there are not enough cast members on LOCI now. Unlike the other L&O series, which all have plenty of different personalities, it’s going to be an uphill battle for both the writers and the performers to hold the audience’s interest with such a small cast. The new performers are promising so far, but judging from this episode, the writers may not be.
In short, I will not be going out of my way to watch LOCI anymore. Last night I abruptly ended a phone call because I didn’t want to miss a second of the episode. I don’t see that happening anymore on the days I choose to watch LOCI. I am now not a “must see, can’t miss” loyal view of LOCI, but a casual viewer … if there’s nothing better on and I have the time, I will watch it. If I miss it, oh well …
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Post by lovebug on Apr 7, 2010 9:59:18 GMT -5
I thought the writing was awful! I was trully bored and if it wasn't the Goren and Eames finale, I would have changed the channel. I'm glad now EB, KE, and VDO have left the series-they deserve better material to work with.
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