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Post by DonnaJo on Apr 26, 2010 15:40:40 GMT -5
I was fine with the personal arc of Season 6 that Warren Leight and Vincent brought to the series. The Frances Goren storyline was riveting, as was the introduction of Frank Goren as Bobby's loser brother. I also appreciated Season 7's "Amends," where we finally learned about Eames husband. I looked forward to coming here and discussing the show and what was happening to our Bobby. ;D Things started unraveling for me in the middle of Season 7, starting with "Untethered" and then "Purgatory." The whole Brady daddy serial killer arc ruined the show for me, even though there were some good episodes that didn't deal with Bobby's angst (Kissinger, for example). By Season 8, Goren was so depressed, haggard and messed up that it was sometimes painful for me to watch. But I still did, praying for him to snap out of it and be well again. I'm not sure what happened with Goren's storyline. Too much a good thing? If personal angst is good, than let's dump more of it on the guy? I honestly am not sure whose idea it was to keep giving Bobby so much sorrow, especially when it came to his career. Now he's been fired, and has nothing.
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Post by outerbankschick on Apr 26, 2010 19:02:58 GMT -5
Season 8 was all about Goren's recovery...it was just that USA screwed everything up by airing episodes out of order. And there is another reason consistency is important. You have to make up your mind...are you going to do a story arc that goes on for more than one episode or not...because if you are, you can't throw a monkey-wrench in the works by airing the episodes out of order.
The writing for S8 definitely wasn't stellar, nor was the writing for Loyalty - I can't speak for the rest of S9 because I've not seen any of it, but so far, the comments I've read on a couple of boards haven't been great as far as plot and story go.
IMO, by Family Values, Bobby was back. Scarred by his journey, but moving forward. I would have been satisfied with that as a finale if I'd known how they were going to screw him in Loyalty...
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Post by Patcat on Apr 27, 2010 11:25:18 GMT -5
What I'd like to think is that Bobby came to a realization that he didn't have to be defined only by his work, that he didn't need to be part of the NYPD to have a life. I saw a resignation in his reaction to his suspension in LOYALTY, and even a certain amount of relief when he was finally let go by the NYPD. He, at least, didn't have to make that decision. How he'll fell when he learns that Eames has fallen on her sword is a different matter.
But, after all, isn't that what fanfiction is for? (g)
Patcat
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Post by outerbankschick on Apr 27, 2010 19:12:17 GMT -5
Patcat, I tend to agree. I think he wasn't all that unhappy about being fired. I think he'd had enough of the politics of the MCS, too. And because I hate that dumb plot device cooked up to have Eames fire him, I'm going to rewrite that whole scenario.
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Post by Patcat on Apr 28, 2010 8:48:15 GMT -5
I was thinking (always dangerous) about how unfair Goren and Eames (and, by extension, Mr. D'Onofrio and Ms. Erbe) were treated in the stories that led to their departure. Mike Logan got a fine send off, as did Captain Deakins. I found Deakins' falling on his sword for the good of the department especially moving. But Goren and Eames get a confusing mess. Not fair, not fair. Only Carver, who didn't get any explanation for his departure, has more to complain about, and I'm not sure he wasn't treated better.
Patcat
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Post by outerbankschick on Apr 28, 2010 22:12:11 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm feeling a bit like TPTB gave us the finger with that one...
The characters and their actors, not to mention the loyal fans, deserved better. Way better.
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Post by Moonbeam on Apr 28, 2010 23:18:02 GMT -5
They don't care what we watch, as long as we watch.
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Post by Jefferaldo on Apr 29, 2010 21:52:35 GMT -5
TBH I thought that the CI I came to know and love was lost as soon as Warren Leight stepped in. It stopped being the crime drama that I knew and loved and started turning into a soap opera. Needy mothers, drug addict brothers, serial killer fathers, a detective finding someone to love then that person conveniently committing suicide, a nemesis' heart stuffed in a box conveniently killed by the mentor - what does that sound like to you? Not a series that is "focusing on the mind of the criminal" but rather "next time on the bold and the beautiful". If someone told me when I started watching this show in season 2 that this was how it was going to turn out in season 6 and 7, I would have stopped watching.
I blame Warren Leight. Does everyone remember "Brother's Keeper"? What a god awful ending. I laughed when Goren said "Look, I've done this a lot. It's better if you just confess"... and then... HE DOES! Ugh. Sloppy. Lazy. Crap.
/rant
That being said, the show did start to recover in Season 8. I thought many of the episodes were much more well done that seasons 6-7. I felt the lackluster episodes were In Treatment, All In, and Alpha Dog. I thought All In would have had tremendous potential if Lou Taylor Pucci returned as the same character, but alas.
After seasons 6-7 which were very "meh" to me, I am really enjoying Season 9 so far. It is sad to see Goren and Eames go and he will always have that special compartment in my heart but he was never going to return to the Goren I loved in Seasons 1-3. With a fresh set of faces, I feel that it indeed has breathed new life into the show. I enjoy watching JG, SB, and MEM. They work well together and as others here have mentioned I don't feel the need to compare JG and SB. Apart from the awful music video of Broad Channel, I thought Delicate and Gods & Insects were great episodes. We had arias in the Interrogation Room! I can't remember the last time that has happened (Were there any in the Warren Leight years? Folie a Deux was great).
The show will never return to the glory of the Rene Balcer years, but as long as it returns to its roots, that is, the crime and the mind of the criminal, great arias that are exciting to watch, little tidbits about the characters lives (rather than soap opera), then I will take that and I will be happy with it.
I am very much looking forward to coming episodes.
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Post by DonnaJo on Apr 30, 2010 8:55:51 GMT -5
Very nice post Jeff. Glad to see you. Playing Devil's Advocate...can one blame Warren Leight without also blaming Vincent? From what I remember from an interview with Warren at the start of Season 6, he asked Vincent what changes he wanted, and Vincent said that he wanted to get more personal with the character. I see Warren as appeasing his star - trying to get him to enjoy his job again. It was obvious (at least to me) that in Season 5 VDO was bored. I do agree though, that something that started out well ("Amends," "TWAH") got way out of hand under Warren Leight ("Untethered, Purgatory") with Vincent's acting just so over the top that I actually cringe when watching the mental ward slab scene. I know others don't see it that way, but I do.
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Post by crimefighter on Apr 30, 2010 12:28:07 GMT -5
Did you also cringe watching Hargitay in the prison rape scene? Vincent gave Goren a depth to his character, I'm sure if USA hadn't destroyed the show, Eames would have been more fully explored. In keeping with the discussion of personal lives, SVU has always been that way right from show one. As to Vince being" bored" I would say if he was he certainly hid it well, I always found him an engaging actor, his full attention to detail may irritate some, but it does galvanize a large number of his loyal fan base. I don't see that energy on any Board for Goldbloom, including this board, hardly a ripple of interest. It was never this quiet with the show when Vince and Kate starred, a shame to see it seem to be falling off the radar.
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Post by DonnaJo on Apr 30, 2010 15:16:43 GMT -5
"Did you also cringe watching Hargitay in the prison rape scene? "You assume that I've seen it. I don't watch SVU exactly for the reasons you mentioned, crimefighter. Melodramatic acting, and everything so over the top, all of the time. That's why the slab scene, and a few others, bothered me so much. LOCI has always been better than that. Much better. And I do realize that many fans didn't see it that way. I respect that. It's hard to tell at this point if newer fans of the show will join this site. This message board started in 2004, roughly 3 years into LOCI. The show had developed a strong following and now there was a well moderated place to discuss it.
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Post by outerbankschick on Apr 30, 2010 21:05:04 GMT -5
The slab scenes bothered me because they were so real. It was hard to watch that part of Untethered. It still is. And the teaser from Frame...dear God what a brilliant job Vincent did with that one! I've got a blog post to do about that one...which was born from manually screen-capping the episode. What a range of emotion he showed on his face during the scene where he found Frank lying under that sheet. As for "over the top" - well I don't see it that way, but if emotion and high drama is not wanted on CI, someone better go back and tell a great many of those guest stars that they had it all wrong.
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Post by Techguy on May 1, 2010 3:23:31 GMT -5
I've resisted posting on this thread until now because I wasn't sure I was capable of avoiding stirring up a hornet's nest. However, Jeff articulated a lot of what I personally believe about CI, although I do not share his positive assessment of Season 8 which I think was an almost complete disaster.
And as for apportioning "blame" if that's the right word: one only has to look at how NBC handled the Conan O'Brien/Jay Leno fiasco to identify the usual suspects.
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Post by DonnaJo on May 1, 2010 8:21:40 GMT -5
As for "over the top" - well I don't see it that way, but if emotion and high drama is not wanted on CI, someone better go back and tell a great many of those guest stars that they had it all wrong. That isn't what I said. I said that VDO's acting has at times, and in my opinion, been over the top. I never mentioned the acting of any of the guest stars. Besides, emotion and high drama are not the same as scenery chewing.
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Post by Jefferaldo on May 1, 2010 9:23:33 GMT -5
This is OT but... Has anyone seen Sharon Stone on SVU? There was enough Scenery Chewing in one episode for the entire L&O franchise!
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