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Post by Patcat on Apr 23, 2010 11:59:24 GMT -5
There are a couple of posters on the USA Board complaining that Vincent D'Onofrio is to blame for the recent changes in LOCI because he wouldn't come back at a reduced salary. I don't hold with that idea (and would be happy to discuss my reasons why), but wondered if there is someone we should/could finger. Since we generally play nice with each other, I thought we might be able to discuss this, unlike the people at the USA board.
Patcat (hoping she's not stirring up too many hornets in the nest)
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Post by drsues on Apr 23, 2010 13:51:13 GMT -5
You can't blame an actor for making a decision concerning his/her career. They have a life outside of the spotlight, and have goals that I would suspect, for Mr. D'onofrio, would not be fulfilled by continuing in a television show.
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Post by wicksandlather on Apr 23, 2010 14:50:08 GMT -5
No one is to "blame" for VDO leaving. I'm new here and none of you have reason to trust me but, I know VDO wanted out awhile back. VDO chose to stay on for S7(Noth wanted out) and he was given some perks for doing so. VDO also stayed for S8 in order to help JG get comfortable in his role.(and the fans) Also you should know that VDO is a really good guy. I noticed some comments about him on the other site that really made me mad. VDO has helped out many members of the crew(including my brother in law) by recommending them for other work during the CI hiatus. Have there been conflicts along the way? Yes as any other show and any other job. VDO is an artist not a sell out, he wanted out of playing Robert Goren and wants to spend more time filming smart independant films. VDO also has a daugther who is aspiring to be an actress/singer and VDO is helping her. *edited to add: I hope I'm not stirring the hornets nest!
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Post by outerbankschick on Apr 23, 2010 16:29:04 GMT -5
The recent changes should be laid at the feet of the network. It's been said time and again that Criminal Intent did not "fit in" with USA's overall programming and I don't believe for a moment that the lazy writing is a coincidence. The writing for this show used to be very smart and very tight. They didn't slam us over the head with stuff. We were allowed to figure it out. Now I know there have been some not-so-great scripts in the past, so I'm not blaming the move to USA for every so-so script. But as I look back on the the not-so-distant-past, I see too many instances where the writer's showed us the stick before they threw it. It was suggested once that CI was being "dumbed down" and the person who suggested it was promptly scolded for saying so. However, I tend to agree with that assessment in a sense, as evidenced by some of the things I've seen in the last couple of seasons. And don't get me started on the lazy writing...making up new characters and tossing them into the fray for the purpose of causing drama and trauma for an episode or two and then we never hear about them again. Donny anyone? And the "Eames-suddenly-makes-Lt.-in-order-to-make-Capt.-so-she-can-be-forced-to-fire-Goren ex machina" has to be the worst one I've seen yet! Add to that the fact that she was NEVER referred to as Sgt. - and yet you have to attain Sgt. before you can take the Lt.'s exam!! MEH!!
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Post by DonnaJo on Apr 24, 2010 9:18:20 GMT -5
I don't blame Vincent for wanting to leave. I believe wicksandlather (welcome!)in that he has wanted out for awhile. While I'm sure he stayed to help the show when Noth left and when Goldblum came on, it was also because of the money. Which is understandable, of course. When USA told him that his pay was going to be cut drastically per episode, that helped him make the decision. I think Vincent needed that push. Do I blame USA for Vincent leaving? No, because he has wanted to for quite awhile. I do blame them for not allowing Kate Erbe to stay on as Nichols partner. I believe she would have if given the option. But she has been so closed about it that we really don't know what she feels. Same with Eric B. Would he have stayed on? I have no idea. I do agree with OBC and others who feel cheated by the ending of the best Detective team ever. Very lame.
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angua
Detective
Posts: 281
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Post by angua on Apr 24, 2010 9:31:20 GMT -5
I'm getting confused. i thought Vincent, while he wanted to leave, was fired, just like KE and EB. I find it funny no one talks about them on either thread.
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Post by maherjunkie on Apr 24, 2010 10:31:32 GMT -5
The recent changes should be laid at the feet of the network. It's been said time and again that Criminal Intent did not "fit in" with USA's overall programming and I don't believe for a moment that the lazy writing is a coincidence. The writing for this show used to be very smart and very tight. They didn't slam us over the head with stuff. We were allowed to figure it out. Now I know there have been some not-so-great scripts in the past, so I'm not blaming the move to USA for every so-so script. But as I look back on the the not-so-distant-past, I see too many instances where the writer's showed us the stick before they threw it. It was suggested once that CI was being "dumbed down" and the person who suggested it was promptly scolded for saying so. However, I tend to agree with that assessment in a sense, as evidenced by some of the things I've seen in the last couple of seasons. And don't get me started on the lazy writing...making up new characters and tossing them into the fray for the purpose of causing drama and trauma for an episode or two and then we never hear about them again. Donny anyone? And the "Eames-suddenly-makes-Lt.-in-order-to-make-Capt.-so-she-can-be-forced-to-fire-Goren ex machina" has to be the worst one I've seen yet! Add to that the fact that she was NEVER referred to as Sgt. - and yet you have to attain Sgt. before you can take the Lt.'s exam!! MEH!! Maybe we could just get Tiger Woods dad to yell at them.
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lovesong
Silver Shield Investigator
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Post by lovesong on Apr 24, 2010 13:02:00 GMT -5
I blame whomever came up with the idea to explore the personal lives of the characters. Frances Goren et al was the beginning of the end. I am not thrilled to see them repeating this pattern with the introduction of F Murry Abraham. Mothership has managed to stay on the air for 20 years avoiding this kind of clap-trap. CI would have done well to stick to the formula.
I don't blame Donofrio for wanting to leave. I've been at my job for seven years, and I'm ready to go postal some days. Everyone needs the opportunity to grow and evolve. I'm not surprised that even with the (IMO foolish) character exploration he was still bored with the routine. It showed though, which is not a good thing, anymore than it is when I allow my job dissatisfaction to show.
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vdofan1
Silver Shield Investigator
Made ya look....
Posts: 178
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Post by vdofan1 on Apr 24, 2010 14:49:07 GMT -5
I don't really lay blame anywhere. People leave jobs or are let go all the time. It's hardly ever one reason or one event. The changes we have now may not particularly be to my liking as previous changes haven't been to others liking. Even though it has been several years, I'll go back to the true turning point for me - the departure of Rene Balcer - which again if we are to believe "sources" was about money and network interests. On one level it can be a great collaboration between networks and producers, producers and actors; it's also adversarial. Left brain/right brain conflict. That's the BUSINESS end of it. That is the bottom line regardless of sentiment. But I have to admit the behind the scenes melodrama of the actors departures has been far more interesting than the melodrama of the characters departure turned out to be.
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Post by Patcat on Apr 24, 2010 18:16:00 GMT -5
Kudos to all for your civil take on all of this. And I appreciate the perspective of insiders.
Patcat
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Post by outerbankschick on Apr 25, 2010 8:09:34 GMT -5
As to the character exploration aspect, I suppose that is where the biggest divide is. Because there were a great many of us who really enjoyed that. TOS bored me after awhile. I catch it now and then and yes it's been on for 20 years, and yes there are lots of folks who enjoy it. No, it has never been "personal story free". We may not have actually seen very many of the character's family members, but personal stories were not only played out, they were alluded to, as early as S1. Remember Indifference? Mike absolutely despised the mother in that one - because she reminded him of his own mother and he said so. We got a huge glimpse into his life there. Then there was the Serpent's Tooth - another Mike Logan insight. Two sons are accused of murdering their parents and Mike just doesn't believe they did it. Especially not because they both loved their mother dearly. He says if someone had given him a shotgun when his mother was beating his brains in he'd have shot her, but his father - never. Then there was the episode were Olivet became personally involved in a patient's life. She went to a gyn whom her patient had stated had raped her, and she ended up being raped as well. She called Mike instead of 911 - and a personal relationship between them was alluded to during the doctor's rape trial. I believe that relationship was also alluded to in a later season. We heard quite a bit about Rey Curtis's family life - and we met his wife and daughters in one of his first episodes. We heard a good bit about Lennie's family woes, and we met his daughter, too. We met Cragen's wife - Greevey's wife - Ceretta's wife. Claire and Jack McCoy had a romantic relationship that was eventually confirmed. We met Diane - Jack's former assistant whom he was then forced to prosecute for prodding a witness to lie (if I remember correctly). There was an episode where Claire had to recuse herself because the suspect in question had sexually harassed her when she worked for him - I believe he was a judge. Then there was the finale of S6, when Jack, Claire, Lennie, and Rey attended an execution and the ensuing drama had nothing to do with solving a crime. The entire episode was about the effect that seeing that man die had on them. Jack and Lennie ended up at a bar, drinking together. Rey met a girl in the park and ended up back at her place, listening to an Oasis CD and then they ended up in bed together. Claire was trying to stay away from everyone, but finally ended up at the bar and had to drive Lennie home because he was drunk. She missed Jack in the process because he'd already left the bar and then her car was hit by another driver and she was killed. So things between her and Jack (they'd been arguing) were never resolved before she died. This was alluded to in a later episode when Jamie Ross prodded Jack about going out with one of her friends. And S2 of TOS began with a story that was very personal. Greevey was shot and killed and everything that Mike Logan did in that whole episode was motivated by his rage and grief over his partner's murder. SVU has been nothing but personal since it's inception. We met Elliot's family very early on. CI was personal from the get-go, even if we didn't actually meet these "off-screen" players. And it was much more than just a procedural. The characters had depth, and it showed. I don't see the introduction of Frances as the beginning of the end. I saw it as the beginning of something wonderful. I was one of those people who was ready for more character development. More of what these detectives were like outside of work. And I loved every minute of it. I'll never be sorry they went that route. Incidentally, Det. Lupo's first run out of the gate on TOS was a completely personal and character driven story involving his late brother and his sister-in-law. The idea that L&O has never been about personal stories is revisionist history.
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Post by alliehalliwell on Apr 25, 2010 14:37:15 GMT -5
I didn't mind the character exploration and personal lives, BUT I do think some of it was handled lazily. I liked the introduction of Francis Goren but I felt - while dramatic, the whole Daddy-psycho-Brady was a little over the top. The Donny theme would have been alright if it wasn't a stand alone and purely done to get a reaction from the viewers.
Even with that said, it wasn't TOO bad. I did like the actors and it was alright...just broke my heart they kept wanting to mess with Bobby. I liked the personal lives better than when they do it in SVU ('cause that show is almost ALL drama)...but I think the show would have faired better if they chose a VARIETY when dealing with the personal lives. It was all bad things happening to them, with the exception of Ross/Rogers. Goren's long lost nephew, the news of his real father, his mother dying, his brother being murdered, his mentor becoming a killer, Nicole being murdered (when I felt he wanted to just see her behind bars trying to make amends), captain Ross being murdered, Eames realizing the truth of her husband's death, Goren getting suspended, Goren getting fired, Eames having to fire Goren... Yeah, it was like being smashed over the head repeatedly. I'm sorry, but they couldn't just allude here and there that something GOOD was going to happen to them? EVER? Like, Eames getting all dressed up for a date a few times - we didn't have to hear any mention of a fella 'cause we could figure it out. Or, Goren doing something like getting a puppy or becoming a 'big brother'. I dunno. They could have done ANYTHING and I felt it would have been better than the constant despair.
I mean, the one time they showed any hope that Goren would have family again is that little 'niece' he had...which, well to be technical, if it was his cousin's kid that would mean she was his...second cousin then and not his niece. And I was always under the assumption that it was just Goren, his mom, and brother for the longest time. I was SO lost about this mysterious family that just popped up. It wasn't good. Poor writing in my opinion.
Yeah, I would have liked more thought put into the personal lives aspect - but overall I did like it. I was just tiring of what the writers were doing the past year - it seemed lazy. And in my opinion, this was probably why VDO was tired with the show. He used to boast about the writing and hasn't for the last couple years and I believe that it was probably with the sometimes lazy writing. I know, as a wannabe writer myself that if I watch a movie or read a book that is great two thirds of the way through and then suddenly things are just thrown in for drama at the end, I feel cheated. You can always tell what's done for a reaction and what's done to hold true to the characters and the plot. Drama for drama sake is never good...in my opinion.
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Post by outerbankschick on Apr 25, 2010 21:31:52 GMT -5
Alliehalliwell, I agree about the writing completely. It could have been better in many instances. I would have liked to see a balance between the "tough stuff" and some better moments for each character, as you've said. And as a writer myself, I have cringed at some of the things these writers have done. And not just in the G/E eps.
The Donny story should have been "closed". We should have at least had a simple line about how he was back in jail now, to finish his time...something. And another reference to Molly wouldn't have hurt - like Bobby getting another letter from her, or a greeting card sitting on his desk.
Where they went wrong with this is consistency. The writers have been lacking in this area. There's tons of back-story to know and understand before you can come in and begin writing an established character. IMO, it's falling down on the job if you don't get to know your character before you begin.
And while we are on the subject of the writing...I know it's for drama and all but for Pete's sake, don't these folks watch Forensic Files? I mean, this is a crime drama. Whenever I hear Rodgers say (in Frame in particular, but it also happens in Great Barrier) "We found succinylcholine in his system..." I want to yell, "No you didn't! Because succinylcholine has a half-life of about a minute. You cannot find it in the blood hours after the injection happened!"
Yes, I'm a Forensic File/true crime fan and little details like this are so easy to research before writing a story. Yeesh!
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Post by Patcat on Apr 26, 2010 8:49:39 GMT -5
Everyone has very eloquently expressed some things I also feel.
OBC--I'm a sporadic viewer of the original series, but I trust your assessment of how it's handled the personal lives of its characters. I think one of the huge differences is that all of this has played out over twenty years. Information was measured out very carefully. One of the problems I have with SVU is that ther personal information is ladled out constantly, often, I think to the detriment of the show. The stories become less about the victims and the crimes and more about how the detective react to them. Look at how this terrible crime has hurt Stabler and Benson, not how it's hurt the victim and how the crime is solved.
I enjoyed the initial trips into Bobby's life, but, as others have mentioned, it became way too much. I sensed that the writers weren't always in touch with each other, especially after Rene Balcer's departure as showrunner. I certainly don't blame Warren Leight for all the ills that befell the show, but I do think he needed to keep a better hold on the Bobby storyline. I didn't feel overwhelmed with the personal stories about Eames, perhaps because it never seemed quite so much or quite so ridiculous as what happened to Bobby.
One of the many things which upset me by the departures of Mr. D'Onofrio and Ms. Erbe is that I sensed Bobby was on the way back, and that journey was brutally ended.
Patcat
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Post by lovebug on Apr 26, 2010 10:17:48 GMT -5
OBC, amazing post!
I blame the writing too! The whole of season 8 seemed to be written by people who had never watched an episode. The quality (IMO) has changed so much that its not the same show anymore. What a loss for me as, I seldom watch television in the first place. I loved Criminal Intent and the Goren and Eames characters. I would spend all week looking forward to the next episode and after joining this forum (and a few others) I couldn't wait to read everyone's comments and add my own. Things changed for me during S8, I felt confused and frustrated by the awful writing, scrambled episodes, and didn't enjoy the Nichols character. I'm not watching S9. The finale was insulting to G&E fans. They should have put more effort into the finale, maybe even made it a 3-part episode. One episode to set the stage for Ross, introduce bad guys, and tie up the Donnie mystery, then continue the story wrapping with the detectives "leaving" the series. I would have stayed with the show if the level of writing was still what I've come to expect from CI. The awful writing just reaffimed my descion that its time for me to move on.
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