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Post by trisha on Feb 29, 2004 17:52:15 GMT -5
Metella can steal the epi guide, but I get to start this thread It is interesting to me that NBC will rerun this one along with Suite Sorrow, they are usually not so apt ;D It was these two episodes that convinced me that Goren's father was dead. We still have no work from Goren himself whether or not he ever confronted his father, but from these two episodes, as well as Cold Comfort, I'd say not. More thoughts after the ride...
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Post by trisha on Mar 1, 2004 0:07:23 GMT -5
Gee, has it all been said?
I noticed something new (to me anyway)...
When Goren points out the way Eames asked for the file without asking for it, and then Roger said his dad is the one who's sick and that Roger takes care of him, Goren paused before redirecting. It's my suspicion that he went back to Rogers somber note about knowing someone who manipulates instead of making direct requests and connected it to the father.
Later he gets to see it for himself, "Is there a chair?" which meant, "I'm a poor crippled man, you inconsiderate prick, pull out my chair." To which Goren obliges, knowing full well what sort of person he is dealing with. All along he thinks only of himself. Even as he is dragged from the room after incriminating Roger, he blames his son for the discomfort he will face.
I know we went over this to painful lengths, and we still don't have all the answers, but seeing this episode right after Suite Sorrow just drives home the impression that Bobby never confronted his father about abandoning his family. He cut his father out of his life hoping that would have the same affect, but it hasn't. And his own point about parents only ruining a child's life "if you let them" stands moot as his own father still acts as a wrecking ball in his life from beyond the grave.
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coth
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 78
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Post by coth on Mar 1, 2004 5:08:01 GMT -5
I also have the impression that Goren's father is deceased and that they did not part on the best of terms. I think in Mad Hops, Goren mentioned that the coach ate his dinners while standing over the sink, "like my father used to do." Part of the unresolved issues Goren may have, is his refusal to try to understand his father as he has other people.
This is only the second time I have had a chance to see this episode, so some of the scenes are still new to me. The scene where Goren gets into the Cherry Red car and revs up the engine, it is apparent that he is doing it to fuel Roger's emotional edginess, but also for his own sheer enjoyment to the point that Eames has to tell him "You really have to get out of there now." And then the scene with Carver in the office with the model cars. They both act like five year olds with Hot Wheels. When Eames catches them at it and ask if they are having a "playdate", Carver looks a bit sheepish, but Goren just grins.
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Post by trisha on Mar 1, 2004 13:59:46 GMT -5
Bobby talked about his fathers funeral in Blink and then spoke of cleaning out his apartment after he died in Mad Hops, so he is definitely deceased.
I also loved the scene where Eames calls Goren and Carver on their little "play date." Loved the way Bobby held the Shelby and Carver petted the Jag.
Something else I noticed in this episode, ever since the Pardoners Tale I thought Lewis and Bobby had been friends since childhood, but Lewis is just too young. The actor, Kevin Breznahan, is a good 10 years younger than VDO. If they were supposed to be friends since boyhood, why not chose an older actor? Not that I'm complaining. Breznahan is great. Love him as Lewis, and loved him as Danny the druggie in Lucky. It just brings new questions to mind. One thing is for sure, Lewis has know Bobby since before he was known to wear a suit, and he seemed mighty pleased about being able to help on a case. There may be a little hero worship there.
What a pity everyone seems talked out about this one. It's still my fave.
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Post by Metella on Mar 1, 2004 18:45:42 GMT -5
back at ya OK - I posted the Guide stuff for this episode, and I included in mine the director of photography. I think we should pay close attention to the directors and the photography people in these episodes. They change quite a lot - for instance in Sorrow .... the shots that Observer likes so much - the over the shoulder, near view as from the actor's eyes - was all over that episode. Not so much in Cherry Red. Many of the names of the crew seem to cycle through different spots, I have seen writers in the production area ect - this I think is good, a core of crew who know the show inside & out. Now - for Goren; shame shame on him in this episode. Either he was frustrated and lashed out at the guy; or he just plain was a pure bastard as they guy called him .... when Goren sniffed own hand, held it toward the guy and snached his hand back before the guy could sniff - AND the guy was gearing up for a sniff; oh yes he was. Now, that served absolutely no police related function. That was a very purely mean act. I liked seeing it, as no one with as much passion as Goren has can have only "proper" passion. To him give in to that little blip of nasty was a refreshing view on his character. I still say the hug with Lewis was soooooo Urban. For that casual circumstance the hug seemed out of place for me. If it had been an emotional circumstance, or they hadn't seen each other for years, or one had just made some great achievement .... whatever, sure, hug. Some input on tires? naw. Now, don't blast me - I do agree that the hug was nice to see, that Goren should be a role model for a large % of the men in this country and yes, cool, manly men can hug. My comment was just it seemed unnatural. (well, go ahead and blast me if you like, I've got my bullets chambered)
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Post by trisha on Mar 1, 2004 20:09:30 GMT -5
I didn't see it as unnatural, but this is not a blast. Maybe it is and urban thing to do, but they are in NYC, right? If they have known each other since childhood (overlooking the age difference) why wouldn't they hug? I think your personal bias from growing up in military environments is getting the best of you. A large percentage of soldiers don't hug hello and good-bye, in many cases not even their own brothers and fathers. But outside the military there are many men who not only hug their close friends and male relatives, but kiss them as well. And why not? Admittedly there are most likely more straight men who wouldn't plant a platonic kiss on a friend then who would.
But the times they are a'changin. We have reached the age of the metrosexual. Men are not only going to salons to get their hair done, they are getting manicures and pedicures and even exchanging tips with one another. One of the Body Shop's best sellers is its shaving cream, and Queer Eye has just as many if not more straight men tuning as gay men.
If Bobby and Lewis have been friends since before Bobby wore a suit to work, I'm guessing we are going back pretty far. Adding to that the way Bobby teased Lewis about the wrench in his back pocket, the way Lewis pointed out a big dent in a car and asked Bobby if it brought back memories, as well as the way Lewis said, "About that Malibu... if you want, I can get the guys number," and it tells me they have a near big brother/little brother type bond.
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coth
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 78
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Post by coth on Mar 1, 2004 20:48:21 GMT -5
Thanks for the clarification on Goren's father's death. I thought I remembered a mention of his funeral, and Goren mentioning cleaning out his apartment; but I still get confused on the episodes sometimes. Hopefully, either they will come out with a Season 2 DVD, or I can get more of them recorded so I can rewatch them.
I still feel that Goren's ploy with the glove and taking control of Roger's obsession was mostly a calculated move meant to further undermine his emotional defenses. It could be seen as a bit cruel, but it doesn't stand out to me as anymore so than some of the other ploys he has used.
As far as the hug goes, I got the impression that they had not seen each other for a while and it was just their normal way of greeting and parting. I liked the bit of his infatuation with Eames and the tolerant way she dealt with it.
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Post by trisha on Mar 1, 2004 21:20:58 GMT -5
Tolerant? Heh, " Down, Boy." like she was talking to an overexcited puppy. A bit demeaning, but Lewis didn't seem to mind. Metella, saw your guide... "one more murder"? I thought it was only Kate and Mrs. Bachhilder who were killed in this one? Did I miss one? I'm surprised no one else has comments on Cherry Red, and that no one has started a thread for Suite Sorrow yet
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Lilee
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Post by Lilee on Mar 1, 2004 23:38:09 GMT -5
Well, I saw Goren's 'mean' act as partly his own frustration that the guy was going to walk out of there, but also a cheeky way to tell the guy they were still gonna get him. He knew that Roger would be frustrated by that since when they walked in on him petting the car, he had his head inside before he even tried out the driver's seat!! So, being the olfactory-driven guy Goren is, why not take advantage of that!
What I wonder is if D'Onofrio did the car scene cold. He is sooo damn excited and animated! I know he's an amazing actor but still couldn't help wondering. Just seems like a D'Onofrio thing to do: run thru the scene a couple times without the actual car, then film with it.
When I had car trouble a couple months ago the car got towed to a dealership, Ford, even tho' I drive a Jetta. Anyway, when I went to pick it up it was five minutes before they closed. My sister brought me. I got out of her car and right THERE was a brandky-new lookin' T-Bird. Black. Oh, my GOD!!!! I was transfixed as I walked toward it . Sis' had to take me by the arm to go get my car.
As I was driving toward the T-Bird, two guys were getting in it so I stopped. They let me sit in it, SMELL it, pretend I was driving!!! I wish I could tell you what that felt like.....I..I can't in mixed company but I wish I could!!! Turns out a guy just traded the dealership TWO of them for a Viper. Such a life, eh?? They were taking it out for a spin, so I followed them with my car, windows down so I could hear it wind out. Of course they blew me away once we hit the highway.
I am not much of a motor-head, but this is an experience I'll never forget! Still get chills and...well.....
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Post by romulanavatra3 on Mar 2, 2004 5:53:18 GMT -5
i loved this epsidoe it was well wirtten and was very intresting , the dilouge was great and the way the chracter acted was good. the story was some what unusal at the begging and the one thing i did not get was what exactly the mans father had done( hwo had he killed, i was lost at the very end). i thoguht both carver and dekains were good i nthis epsidoe and that deakins had soem great lines. i also thought eames was brilliant and goren was well goren. i lked the scne where carver and goren were palying with the toy cars and eames walks in, her response was funny. i also liked the end when eames told goren that he needed to get of the car was good. i also thgouht it was prety funny whe neames at the very end grabed the old mans cane and the smirk she had on her face was so cute( the way she grabbed was the funny partiuclary the way she was standing with afterwards sort of falling over it). i will watch the pesidoe again to see i can find more details i missed the first time i saw it and i will talk more about either tonight or tommorw. reagrds all rom.
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Post by trisha on Mar 2, 2004 10:06:57 GMT -5
Rom, the father got the call from Kate about Roger lying about Mrs. Bachhilder's will to keep the money. He went over to talk her out of calling the cops, but she was dead set to get the money from Roger. The father didn't think about Roger's well being, he thought only of his own. If Roger went to jail, there would be no one at his beck and call. So, he asked Kate to walking him down the stairs and then pushed her down them.
This brings an interesting point: the hand rail that brought MCS to the case in the first place. Did the father make it look like it had come lose, or was it torn loose when Kate tried to catch herself? I guess it doesn't matter, and Goren seemed to be pondering this very puzzle after noticing Kate was right handed.
If she had torn the rail loose trying to catch herself, someone must have been on the right blocking the other rail. If she was coming down the right side and tripped she would have grabbed the right rail. Either way it looked like foul play.
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Post by Metella on Mar 2, 2004 19:40:08 GMT -5
Another point in this episode I really liked; when the son was raging at his father and Goren was holding him back ..... Goren was looking down, it seemed in his way and constrained by having to manhandle the guy, he was still trying to placate the son.
then as the father is lead out - the son says "you see how he is?" Now Goren doesn't hold back too much when he is disgusted by males, so if he thought the son was not in what Goren would classify as legitimate pain he would have blasted him with a snide comment. Instead Goren says in a soft voice "yes, I see"
So, on with trisha on this, he has issues about neglectful fathers - Personally I think they are good issues to have.
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coth
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 78
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Post by coth on Mar 3, 2004 1:51:07 GMT -5
I always thought I was immune to "big engines", and the whole macho thing. When I was stationed in Germany, I met someone who had a Porsche-Audi and it was like a Corvette (my ideal at the time), and I had a chance to drive it on the Autobahn. I was allowed to drive at speeds unheard of on American highways and interstates and I got totally carried away by it. The adrenalin rush I got from this is something I could not explain to anyone who had not done it. The rather demoralizing thing that happened was that when I thought I was exceeding the speed of sound was that people were passing me, and my friend suggested that I should get in the slow lane or pull over.
I only said this to say that in this episode, Goren seems to have either been through the feelings, or be able to understand them. From some of the scenes, it seems like he would not mind having the cars that Roger has, but he would never go to those lengths to acquire them. I am probably belaboring this point, but Goren seems more animated and interested in the cars, the models, etc..., in this episode than he is in other episodes. In this I think he may understand the motivation more than those that kill for money or position, but he still is more interested in justice than in anything else. I blathered on about this more than I intended to, but this episode showed me that no matter how empathetic Goren might be, with the "Oh poor me because of my rotten father", he still knows we all make our own decisions and are responsible.
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Post by trisha on Mar 3, 2004 12:06:24 GMT -5
I agree. The Goren Mirror plays a large role in this one, "There but for the grace of God go I.."
Goren knows what he could have become, but he also knows that though the path may be laid with trauma and despair, it's our choices that dictate our direction. There is always another choice opposed to murder, and giving someone a pass on murder is as unforgivable as murder itself. We have to believe that our lives mean something, and it doesn't matter if the victim is a drifter or a prominent member of society. No one has the right to take a life. That is where Goren must stand to do his job. Sure, he's sympathetic with people like Julie and Dougie Morgan who were manipulated into it, but his belief in our justice system and that life itself is sacred keeps him on track. Julie and Dougie had every opportunity to stop and reconsider what they were doing. We can sympathize with them, but we can't let them walk away.
My take on the way Goren turned away from the father/son battle in the end of Cherry Red is the pretty much the same as it was the first time I saw it, only the question of whether or not Goren's father is still alive has been answered. At first I found it confusing and upsetting that he would have such an aversion to the battle when he forced to come to the boiling point. But I think this is where the mirror and shades of Dorian Gray come in. He held Roger back from physically attacking his father, but he felt every word Roger said as an expression of his own pain and anger. Maybe looking at the portrait would have been too much.
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Post by Metella on Mar 3, 2004 12:36:39 GMT -5
Trisha, I totally agree AND
it is not just murder, Goren gets disgusted by self-pity and a sense of entitlement even when murder has not been connected to the person yet. This all still goes back to dealing with what you are dealt. Sure, there has to be an orientation time - small times of self indulgence to get in touch with feelings - but when it comes down to actions ...... those are clear choices that a person makes & what better position to make the better choice when a person KNOWS what the wrong choice can do to a "victim" or object of the choice.
Goren is my Hero.
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