4:02 - "The Posthumous Collection" 2004-10-03

[Observer2]

Well, predictably, I liked it. And I loved all the little touches that were completely natural in the story, yet still somehow seemed like little presents for the fans.

Like Deakins getting to act like a cop with some experience as he identifies the type of murder weapon from a picture of the wound.

Carver gets one of those ironic lines he does so well – his version of the Eames-style quip, “That and a murder confession might get us an indictment.”<br>
And Eames gets to say, “A smell you can’t identify!” and then later demonstrates how close they are as partners, when she registers the import of a small shift in Goren’s expression, “What’s the matter? You okay?”<br>
And we get them both in street clothes, Goren in a plaid shirt – second only to a black t-shirt (without a jacket) as my favorite look for him (well, not counting the dress blues). The role-playing they did was great – Goren trying to horn in and pick up Eames just as the artist was working on his usual maneuver. Priceless!

[darmok]

I liked it, too. I liked the line about the smell. I did wonder why they needed a cadaver dog when Goren was there.

Eames is good at playing coy when she's under cover. It's quite a contrast to the strong cop that she is.

I was glad that it wasn't a family member that did it. That's how it's been in a lot of the episodes - I had the son pegged. Thankfully I was wrong.

Spencer's family was amazing. Even as an adult, the sister didn't realize (or care?) what they had done to him. I'd like to think that part was unbelievable, but unfortunately, I'm sure there are families like that.

[trisha]

Wow, what a change I really liked this one. Goren looked great, it's amazing what a shave and a hair cut can do. Sadly, the promo showed a scruffy, Crack Binge Bozo looking Goren. I hate it when that happens. Maybe that's something D'Onofrio should consider before he lets his hair get so long and decides not to shave for a few days. If the eps are aired out of sequence, it looks really screwed up, and adds nothing to the character except to make him look like an inconsiderate pig or an oblivious wreck. Either way, Goren is too aware of appearances to go to work looking like that. Maybe it's not so inconsequential that D'Onofrio is rumored to be kind of a slob. Yeah, man, don't bring that to the character [ducks rotten fruit thrown by D'Onofrio fans]

Back to the ep, I enjoyed the way this episode touched on Goren's knowledge and appreciation for art, especially that bit about the detective fiction. The way he recognized the style of drawing is an indication that he read them when he was younger (not surprising), and his tone when speaking of them later seemed an admission that he used to dream about being the hero detective

Another thing that I really liked about this episode was the interaction with Carver and Deakins. The camera pan over the 11th floor showing us all the detectives that Deakins is supervising was nice, as was his noting the rebar. Carver's lines, and his being at the search of Spencer's place were great, too.

The focus was off Goren again, thank dog, and Eames is really benefiting. I don't know how many more lines Kathryn Erbe wanted, but the stage direction at least has to be pleasing to her. The crime solving is more of a team effort with each passing episode, and the show is better for it. I really hope this keeps up

[Observer2]

trisha said:

...Sadly, the promo showed a scruffy, Crack Binge Bozo looking Goren. I hate it when that happens. Maybe that's something D'Onofrio should consider before he lets his hair get so long and decides not to shave for a few days. If the eps are aired out of sequence, it looks really screwed up, and adds nothing to the character except to make him look like an inconsiderate pig or an oblivious wreck. Either way, Goren is too aware of appearances to go to work looking like that. Maybe it's not so inconsequential that D'Onofrio is rumored to be kind of a slob. Yeah, man, don't bring that to the character [ducks rotten fruit thrown by D'Onofrio fans]
)

Trisha, I really don’t know what you’re talking about, here. I went back and reviewed the preview, and in some of it he looks almost as clean-shaven as in the second half of Semi-Detached. I didn’t see anything that looked like the first half of Semi-Detached. It’s true that his hair isn’t cropped short. Some of us *like* his hair long, but even if you don’t, “a scruffy, Crack Binge Bozo looking Goren” and “...look like an inconsiderate pig or an oblivious wreck” are pretty extreme criticisms for wearing his hair longer than you like it.

As for, “Maybe it's not so inconsequential that D'Onofrio is rumored to be kind of a slob. Yeah, man, don't bring that to the character” ...well, that’s not the kind of comment I expect from you, so maybe you’re having an off day. I think you know enough of his work to know that he doesn’t deserve that kind of comment. And even if you weren’t aware of his professionalism and work ethic, I would think you’ve seen enough of his pictures from hiatus periods to know that when he’s not playing Goren he’s very often quite clean-shaven around a neatly trimmed Vandyke.

I do think, at least in Semi-Detached, they were using Goren’s appearance to indicate something about the character. You may not like that, and/or you may not like what they’re doing with the character. But I’m surprised to see you turning that into a personal criticism of D’Onofrio.

trisha said:

The crime solving is more of a team effort with each passing episode, and the show is better for it. I really hope this keeps up

I’m definitely with you on this one!

[trisha]

Ha, ha, ha! I knew I was gonna get it for that one. And your're right, I don't like the way he looks with longer hair and a lot of stubble. Some stubble doesn't bother me, but when it gets near 2, 3, or 4 days growth, it pushes the boundary too far.

I guess it all comes down to this: whether or not people like the long hair and stubble is immaterial when put in focus with the character information, and the fact that the NYPD has rules about appearance, which are specific about facial hair.

It's rude to go to work looking like that. Everyone else got up 10 minutes earlier to shave, why can't Goren? I mean, it's one thing to grow a little out for some undercover work, or not shaving before going to a crime scene a 2:00 AM, but showing up a 8 or 9 AM (whenever his regular shift starts)? Or worse, court! A real cop would get reprimanded for it.

If it's okay for him to blow off the rules about facial hair, then he may as well go to work everyday in that black tee shirt and jeans everyone seemed to love.

Why am I so critical of D'Onofrio? Because it was his bit of character development. I think he needs to spend some time considering the possibility that it was a bad assessment of Goren's character, but instead he has been pushing it past the limit of, "he either got up much earlier or never went to bed," to, "he just plain doesn't give a shit what he looks like, or how his appearance reflects on the NYPD."

[Patcat]

Re. stubble: I've read interviews where Mr. D'Onofrio said the point of the stubble is to indicate that Goren may have been working all night long.

I liked this episode, and especially like its appearance after SEMI-DETACHED. POSTHUMOUS is, for LOCI, fairly straightforward. I figured the murderer once he approached the son, but the reason for the killings was both engrossing and terrifying. Some wonderful exchanges, as others have noted, between Goren and Eames, great lines for Deakins and Carver. My favorite moment was when Goren and Eames realized the women in the photos were dead.

Pretty scary that the most normal member of the killer's family was the killer.

And I'm looking forward to next week's episode. Neil Patrick Harris has become a very fine actor, and it should be quite fascinating to see him mix it up with Mr. D'Onofrio.

Patcat

[Observer2]

trisha said:

Why am I so critical of D'Onofrio? Because it was his bit of character development. I think he needs to spend some time considering the possibility that it was a bad assessment of Goren's character, but instead he has been pushing it past the limit of, "he either got up much earlier or never went to bed," to, "he just plain doesn't give a shit what he looks like, or how his appearance reflects on the NYPD."

Fine.

That’s a good deal different from suggesting that he is personally “kind of a slob” who is “bring[ing] that to the character.”<br>

[Metella]

so, I'll say I liked this one too....I don't have this taped so I can't review; but I remember as I watched the promo for next week thinking - Dog - Goren is scruffy and more grey - what a wreck. So that was take on the promo also.


Plot - althought it was straight forward for me; the smooth roles from scene to scene and the medium pace kept it all jumping. I was annoyed at the nazi toss; since it didn't lead anywhere but old black and while film - all effects that can be manipulated in other areas now adays - it seemed an unnecessary emotional jab.

That aside; I really liked the frozen stare that Goren gave the sister when he had extracted all the info he needed - he was staring at her like she was a blue and purple striped frog with 8 heads. Loved it. Eames let the interview end on a normal note - the sister not being perceptive enough to pick up on their thoughts. The sister not being perceptive enought to pick up on a 2x4 across the head!

The wife - pitiful or not? Knowing her artist husband was occasionally sleeping around on her .... staying very loyal, but more than that - actually condoning it as saying soming like "well that is how artists are"

Son's reaction is understandable. Great Carver quip at the end too .... when the killer has his outburst & Carver asks if he wants to add anything. tee heeeeee

[trisha]

Fine.

That?s a good deal different from suggesting that he is personally ?kind of a slob? who is ?bring[ing] that to the character.?

Well, not really If D'Onofrio really is the slob he has been rumored to be, it's very possible that the distinction I see is not being made in his mind. That's what I meant about it not being inconsequential to the situation- if it's true, that is. It's possible that rumors are false and he's actually the most hygienic man on Earth.

But if they are true, and he doesn't give a crap what he looks like, he ought to at least be aware that Goren is the kind of guy who WOULD care, and even if I'm totally wrong about Goren and he really wouldn't care, he still has superiors to answer to, as well as peers who do make the effort to look like professionals.

[Sirenna]

Sigh. I'm once again a happy lo:ci fan. This episode fit me like my favorite old sweater. Granted it would have to be my favorite old sweater that was knitted by my twisted old grandma whose knitting needles were made of SPLEENS. But still this episode had everything I've come to expect and love in these modern-day whodunits, including the Holmes magnifying glass.

Not that I didn't admire the last one. I did. I just didn't enjoy watching it. Too Goren-angst instead of Gorenesque. Goren came away scathed from his altercation with the villainess rather than triumphant. Not so this one.

Not sure I like that every love-lorn, victimized woman is played by an overweight plain actor who has a cat. It's been portrayed too often i.e. Post Coll, Pilgrim, Sound Bodies. It's becoming stereotypical.

I really liked the premise behind this episode. The photographer was killed because of his newly-realized humanity and not because he was guilty of victimizing those around him which would have been true at any other point in his life before this. It adds to the pathos of all the dead victims. The women died because they were too trusting. Opponents, including the photographer, would have said they allowed themselves to be victimized so they deserved it. The photographer died because he realized their situation was not their fault and refused to be part of it. It also made him appreciate his parents' condition more which I think was why the holocaust was alluded to. It was not at all superfluous to the story.

As a member of Amnesty International, one thing I've learned is, much, much worse than the acts of violence or degradation a person faces, is the thought that they're forgotten. It's why political prisoners, stuck for years in a hole somewhere appreciate letters written on their behalf.

As for the comment on D'onofrio as a clean human being. I have the impression that if it has been a positive rather than negative criticism, it would have been not only ok to say it here, but encouraged . Implicit pressure on what is acceptable freedom of speech always troubles me more than the explicit sort.

As for whether the comment is relevant or not. My take, (and granted, who the heck am I?!!!) but my take is the actor is only as good as the man behind the acting. Discussing both actor and man is integral to discussing methodology, life/actor epiphanies, influences, mistakes etc. Do I think Nick Note is a drugged up boozer who looks like he just escaped from a rehab centre - YES! Yes, I do. Do I think his on-the-edge personality makes him a terrific, mesmerizing actor? YES again.

For D'onofrio to be so unkempt in the last ep was not in keeping with NYPD rules for their detectives, which our astute boy should have known. The show even has a bulletin board with a pic of the rules and diagrams for officer dress codes! But then again I think the first ep of season four was a huge abberation, so who knows why he chose to look like he came to work with a hangover but I think the speculation is valid here.

Now, what is the connection between LO and OZ? crazy rough sis is just the latest. What is the fascination, Rene?!!! I'm going to root for Kathryn's hubby to appear on the next ep. Why not? He's a good actor. Why shouldn't they both take home the family paycheck?

TE-RRY!, TE-RRY!, TE-RRY..!

[NikkiGreen]

Sirenna said:

Now, what is the connection between LO and OZ? crazy rough sis is just the latest. What is the fascination, Rene?!!! I'm going to root for Kathryn's hubby to appear on the next ep. Why not? He's a good actor. Why shouldn't they both take home the family paycheck?

TE-RRY!, TE-RRY!, TE-RRY..!

Isn't he supposed to be appearing occasionally on L&O:NY?

[Observer2]

Sirenna,

First of all, I’m not one of the people who own and run this board. I have no authority here, beyond whatever impact my personal opinion might or might not have, so censorship is not the issue. Besides, I thought I was being pretty explicit.

I have no problem with someone disagreeing with D’Onofrio’s creative choices about how to portray Goren. I don’t like people throwing around undeserved insults. If you still read the Universal (USA) board, you may have noted that I react the same way when people insult the writers, rather than simply stating their disagreement with them.

D’Onofrio has more than proven his understanding of psychology and the human condition. He knows the difference between being a slob and not being a slob. And I’ll tell you what, if D’Onofrio *is* a slob, he has recognized that fact and adjusted for it in every character he has ever played who wasn’t one. So unless he has suddenly become completely lazy and incompetent in his approach to acting – which is *not* supported by other evidence in his portrayal of Goren – then whether or not he, himself, is a slob has no bearing on how he would portray Goren.

If someone disagrees with his creative decisions about Goren – fine. That doesn’t mean he deserves to be insulted as an actor.

As for the rumors, I say, consider the source. Rumors on a self-proclaimed gossip board are like accusations from a co-defendant. They mean nothing without corroborating evidence.

These are my opinions. Others disagree. That’s the way it is. But I have as much right to my opinions as they have to theirs; and so far no one has offered to kick me off the board for posting them, so I don’t think you have to worry about censorship here.

[Sirenna]

You were pretty explicit, Observer and I mean no disrespect to you. Yes, I do still read the uni board and I have always liked what the posters there have to say no matter how rambunctious it sometimes is. None of it has ever bothered me. As for implicit pressure to conform I do feel that was a characteristic of the old uni board and a consequence of the new uni board.

There is something I need to clarify, however.

I carefully wrote my post in a way that avoided commenting directly on 1) the rumour aspect 2) whether or not Vincent, the man behind the actor is a s**b or not. Rumours are not fact and I base a lot of what I write here on actual scenes, diaglogue or interview excerpts which I include in my posts which is why they are so long ) and, two, really, who am I, or any of us, to criticize the personal habits of anyone?

It's only important to me insofar as it affects his acting choices, too. But who he is, is to a great degree, who he is as an actor which is where you and I differ. I am a conditional fan. His roles are always memorable but his films are not always great. Some are pretty bad. But both he and I learn from going over his mistakes repeatedly and I know he'd be the last person in the room to consider himself a hero (which makes him great in my mind.)

He's said himself that he tries to make the character behave the way he, himself would, were he in that situation. To me this means that he, Vincent is as much a part of this dialogue as Goren-on-the-page is. I just wouldn't think talking about his family or sex partners was relevant or worth the trouble of a post... although, sexy as he is, I would be puriently curious...

[LOCIfan]

Metella said:

I was annoyed at the nazi toss; since it didn't lead anywhere but old black and while film - all effects that can be manipulated in other areas now adays - it seemed an unnecessary emotional jab.

I thought the Nazi reference was an attempt to make the famous photographer seem more like his real-life prototype, Helmut Newton. Newton (a Jew) fled Hitler's Germany in the late 1930's and maintained a fascination with Nazi iconography throughout his career -- including the famous series of photographs he did in the 1970's where his wife posed as Hitler to Jerry Hall's Eva Braun. So fascinated was he with Nazi imagery that he befriended Leni Riefenstahl, Hitler's propagandist, after the war. While there may have been other ways for the plot to get to the black and white film, the way it was handled seemed appropriate for a character based on Newton.

[LOCIfan]

Sirenna said:

Implicit pressure on what is acceptable freedom of speech always troubles me more than the explicit sort.

One of the things I enjoy most about this forum is the tolerance of the members for a wide variety of opinions. While we may disagree, there is always a willingness to debate and discuss. That's the hallmark of an open, free exchange of ideas. Simply because one's expressed ideas may not be popular and may be actively contested does not constitute a restriction on free speech, it's simply a reaction to it. Additionally, unless the implicit pressure you mention is backed up by an additional, implicit threat of censorship by someone capable of carrying out that threat, it's inaccurate to raise the notion of free speech being curtailed.

Peer pressure to say or post the "popular" thing is a different matter altogether, and one which goes to the inner workings of the poster's mind, not to the external limitations on what may or may not be expressed.