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Post by velocity on Oct 5, 2004 20:49:39 GMT -5
. However, as an erstwhile writer, I have to take issue with the comment that the character of Goren was/is "constructed out of the imagination of Vincent D'Onofrio". Let's not forget that the character of Goren came from the creative minds of the writers who first imagined him, Dick Wolf and Rene Balcer. So, here's a shout out to all the terrific LOCI writers! ;D LOCIfan - I would never take away from Mr. Wolf and Balcer. I think that are critical to the L&O success story without hesitation. However, let speak in metaphors and quote those two great contributors as well. Mr. Wolf is the father of this series by financing the effort and subsidizing the drama. Using Mr. Wolf's own words " Vincent has complete creative freedom." Mr. Balcer, who nurtures this creation by pounding out great story, stated himself he wrote a certain back story for Goren, discussed it with Vincent, then let the child of this creation - create. Rene gives the words, but the child of this drama, brings the words to life. Vincent has been handed the ball by both parents and he has created a character so fanscinating we watch week after week and analyze. His ability to make this character real and absorbing is because he took that ball with total creative freedom from his parents. Vincent takes those lines written on paper and puts, his voice, emotions, body, and mannerisms to bring Goren to life as we see him. With respect to the great producer and writer, they supply the fuel, but Vincent is the creative fire that burns. I happen to have great respect for the acting profession, if it is done well. I have seen one to many celebs abuse the profession. Vincent is the exception to my jaded opinion on so called actors. He is a master of his craft and I totally enjoy watching him work. He is like a magician at times pulling me into a drama or comedy another could not accomplish. Imagine for a moment someone else in Vincent's place trying to create Goren I don't think it would work. Why, because Vincent can convey what is going on inside the head of the character without saying a word of dialogue. His body language often conveys what is happening to him before the words come out. This is not Rene or Dick's world, this is totally Vincents! These are the reasons I credit Vincent for Goren, and but bow in respect and thanks to Mr. Wolfe and Balcer.
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Post by LOCIfan on Oct 5, 2004 22:33:30 GMT -5
Why, because Vincent can convey what is going on inside the head of the character without saying a word of dialogue. His body language often conveys what is happening to him before the words come out. This is not Rene or Dick's world, this is totally Vincents! I have to disagree. Vincent doesn't invent what's going on in Goren's head, the writers do. Vincent physicalizes it, but he does not invent it. Every week, the episodes we see are scripted. And I don't mean just the dialogue, but the action and the emotions. Often, the body language to which you refer is actually scripted. The character of Goren is an extremely collaborative creation.
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Post by trisha on Oct 5, 2004 22:44:11 GMT -5
Great post LOCIfan Come on, Sirenna, you know it was intetional. I couldn't help myself! velocity, I agree that the character wouldn't be the same without D'Onofrio, his gesticulations alone are part of Goren's character (and every other character he plays). But I have to disagree that he wouldn't be as good or as interesting a character with another good actor playing him. There are a lot of fantastic character actors out there. It's possible that the character would be even better with another actor [ducks more rotten fruit]
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Post by Criminal Mastermind on Oct 6, 2004 8:42:27 GMT -5
On the censorship issue ... the rules of this forum are stated clearly in the General Format and FAQ. Unless you got to this message board by a portal posted on another site, you all agreed to adhere to the rules stated in General Format and FAQ to get to this message board. If anyone here gets literally censored, it will be by Major Hathaway or myself on the basis of violation of those rules. Peer pressure censoring is another issue, and it's one that is completely in the hands of the individual who chooses to go with popular opinion instead of original thought. If by chance there are a few of you who are afraid to post opposing view points to the more vocal members, just know that your opinions are just as valued here as theirs are, and in the 8 months that this board has been active, not one personally derogatory remark has been made, and all arguments have been not only civil, but also encouraging with regard opposing viewpoints.
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Post by Metella on Oct 6, 2004 8:43:58 GMT -5
my my my .... I'm beside myself .... wish I HAD rotten fruit to throw at you you blasphemer! No one can do ANY part better than D'Onofrio I like how the angel comment really shot the bad guy off track - women couldn't be angels in his mind. I think they are
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Post by trisha on Oct 6, 2004 10:18:44 GMT -5
I don't think you can throw this far, but you're welcome to try ;D
I know my opinion on this is unpopular, and I don't care. I mean, I care about not offending any of you, but a clashing of opinions is not something to get all upset about, IMO, and I don't mind being disagreed with.
Also, I did say it's possible not that it's probable. I like Vincent D'Onofrio. He's a believable actor, and that means much to me as most of the time I see actors trying to be their characters, or actors just being themselves in the situation instead of the character in the situation.
There are other actors who I would put in the same ranking of believability with D'Onofrio, though. Not many of them would make a good Goren, but a few would. Who knows, maybe choosing D'Onofrio was a colossal mistake in that once he was introduced as Goren, the show was destined to end after 5 seasons.
Unless someone has found conflicting information on this, it seems that D'Onofrio will not sign on again. Maybe someone else would have more interest in taking the character and the show further.
It's really too bad, because this is the best show on tv right now, and as crimes, criminals, and society evolve, there will always be material for a show like this to explore. Sadly, the only other shows that are exploring forensic psychology right now are all pretty crappie.
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Post by LOCIfan on Oct 6, 2004 10:31:56 GMT -5
Trisha, I happen to agree with you. I love D'Onofrio in the role of Goren, but what I really love is the character of Goren, and I'm already sadly counting down the episodes until D'Onofrio flies the coup. If he has agreed to stay on longer, I haven't seen anything about it. As for other actors taking over, off the top of my head I can think of two. Gary Sinese (who, I know, Is on CSI:NY) is a fascinating actor, and one who I think could do justice to the character. The other is Liev Schreiber. He's younger, but he's very good and he has that intense quality about him that the character requires. I'm sure there are other actors out there who could play the part. Ok, now I'll duck...
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Post by trisha on Oct 6, 2004 21:50:15 GMT -5
Locifan, maybe the character development of Eames, Deakins, and Carver will progress to a point where they writers can continue the show without Goren. ["WHAT?!!" scream the D'Onofrio fans, "Impossible!"] No, not impossible. Not with these writers. I know I would keep watching as long as they didn't throw in a mock Goren or a Darren Stevens, if you know what I mean.
Metella, you got me thinking about Spencer and his misogynistic nature. I wonder who Spencer was reminded of when he told Eames she reminded him of, "Somebody nice." His look, tone, and body language all rang true for me, like she really did remind him of someone he liked.
If he had the woman all picked out for the role of Doris, what did he want Eames for? Anyone?
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Post by Patcat on Oct 7, 2004 0:14:44 GMT -5
Would Spencer have continued killing after he completed his "masterpiece"? Or started again? I don't see Eames fitting any of his models, but who knows.
Patcat
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Post by trisha on Oct 7, 2004 8:39:50 GMT -5
Doris was the last part of his masterpiece, and Eames would not have made a good Doris. If Spencer planned on killing her, and it seemed with his interest in being able to contact her again that he did, it probably had nothing to do with his family masterpiece, but still very much to do with his family history.
When he described the portrayal of women as vicious man haters, it made me wonder if the girls in the photos began is killing spree, or if he had been killing for years. Or, that once he killed for the project he found that he liked it too much to stop.
Unless he could actually kill Doris, Grama, Patty & Mom, or underwent serious psychological therapy, he would probably continue acting out his revenge on all women in one way or another. Perhaps not with the elaborate touches, but after his work with Heltman, he would probably continue taking souvenirs.
No matter how cute, sweet, and innocent Eames or any woman is, Spencer only sees the horrible abusive nature of the women in his family in them.
Observer, what do you think about this?
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Post by Metella on Oct 7, 2004 9:50:35 GMT -5
Yeah, even if he completed his "collection" and went "normal" for a while, some chick would cut him off in traffic or something & he would start a new collection - he needed to be got.
but yeah, he did seem to go a bit soft on Eames, on the street for the picture, why indeed? as he already had his pick for last sister planned out. Was it just so they could see that he was fishing for info ? a plot advancer that really didn't ring true, but was in character enough to use to advance us along?
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jaquetta
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 171
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Post by jaquetta on Oct 7, 2004 12:25:55 GMT -5
I think that Spencer had been killing his female relatives by proxy for.......well, let me think that out. He didn't seem all that old - mid 20's early 30's at most - he'd've escaped from his family around what age? Late teens? I would expect the first killing to be more or less accidental - a date gone wrong, maybe? And Spencer would work up to involving a world class photographer in his gynecide/sorocide/matricides......hmm. Nothing for grandmother killers? So I'm sure this group is only his latest.
As for Eames - maybe she represented an idealized version of a teacher? Fellow student? Or maybe he was working on his next group of anti-sisters, grandmother grouping.
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Post by Sirenna on Oct 7, 2004 16:33:00 GMT -5
Thanks for the clarification, LOCIfan. I was using the terms interchangeably which was confusing.
Since I'm not planning to take anyone to court over this, I'll stick with the more general F of Expression. I believe freedoms should come with prescribed limits too. The limits I refered to in my post are intangible and can be real or imagined, like economic ramifications or peer pressure. Yes it is up to the individual to decide whether or not to limit their expression but it's sometimes easier depending on the political time and space. I'm assuming here that both you and I live in the same sort of environment so we have the same notion on what our inalienable rights are, and the extent of their scope. I enjoyed reading (and disagreeing) with your comments.
I think Spencer was as sadistic as his female family members. He just convinced himself they were the 'baddies' to justify to himself why he was acting as badly as they were. I think he would have gone on past the five murders. I get the sense he felt he was on a mission to save men kind.
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Post by romulanavatra3 on Feb 14, 2005 5:06:20 GMT -5
not a bad episode on the whole. but did anybody else catch eames spontanously changing warddrobe in the last scene, i mean she went from wearing a green top one minute, to wearing a grey top to wearing a greeny/greyish top to a purple one and then back to a green top again at the end. i mean yes i know they shoot scenes on diffrent days but dont you think that they would be able to keep a little contunity in clothing for a single scene. and no way could alex have ducked out and changed tops in that scene and i certainly dont think she would change them in front of everybody. apart for from that inejoed this epsidoe intrestign story, just one thing what was the killer intention once he had completed the collection was he going to repeat it all other again and kill annother five women acording to the crietria he had and keep on doing it or was he going to stop with the first five. plus what excalty was the dead guy doing with those old nazi film roles, i did not get that bit. reagrds all rom.
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Post by det1stgrade on Feb 14, 2005 10:07:04 GMT -5
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