5:02 "Diamond Dogs" 2005-10-02

[javawolf]

Oh m-gosh, I am not happy. I thought I would hate the new deal by default, me being a HUGE Goren fan. The character made the show for me, so a show without him...just doesn't cut it in my book. I'm totally biased though. It seems however that I'm not alone, which is cool!

I didn't see Goren in the background, I'm going to have to watch it again now... *groan*

I also had to run upstairs to my bedroom and watch episode after episode of Goren/Eames to soothe myself. I am not pleased at all.

[janetcatbird]

How many cases have there been where the audience is wondering "Umm, why Major Case?" The mothership has dealt with kidnappings and (pre SVU) rapes despite the fact that they're homicide; chalk it up to dramatic license and go with the flow.

It may not be Goren/Eames, but I still don't think this episode was near as bad as "In the Dark" or "The View Up Here". Talk about clunkers!

Mimi, I have to disagree with you about Eames/Goren being cold. They may be reserved, and they're probably not very chatty about their private lives, but I believe them to be very loyal to each other. It might just be that keeping quiet about private stuff allows them to feel more comfortable with each other--Eames probably doesn't want Goren analyzing all her deep family stuff, and Goren may simply realize that Eames may have trouble empathizing/understanding some of the stuff he went through during his formative years. Or they may talk in situations that the audience doesn't see that's not related to the case. I just think it's more of a distracted brother/teasing sister friendship than best buds.

--Catbird

[LOCIfan]

Re: The use of two separate intros. I found that jarring too. But when I stopped to think about it, the separate episodes have different participants. They can't actually give D'Onofrio & Erbe credits on episodes they don't appear in (that's a union thing). Nonetheless, as a viewer, I found it startling and off-putting. It really is like two separate shows.

I guess I'm not ready to give up on the Logan episodes. I do think he might end up being interesting to watch. I just don't see much of anything coming from Sciorra. Laid back/understated would be one thing, but that's not the way I read her demeanor. It's as though she's (whether that's Barek or Sciorra, I don't know) not invested in the process at all. And that's dull. I'd love to see Logan with a partnership that we can really sink our teeth into -- doesn't have to be a female partner, either. Just someone he sparks with (no, not romantically)...

[mimi1802]

Catbird,

I've said it's a cold relationship because they seem to have put a conscious or unconscious division between each other.

I don't view that type of relationship as a bad thing. It fits them very well. They have their own boundaries and their own type of trust. This relationship is based on the purest form of respect and understanding that allow them to understand one another without having to say one word.

[Sirenna]

Go with flow?! I don't think so.

Kidnappings are MCS so are bank robberies, hazardouz materials, fraud etc and yes there have been some episodes where it's been thin but this one? I ask again, WHY???!! Since when do desparate junkies require the brain power and resources of major case. Nothing in this one had any kind of twist or national security question or, really anything.

[NikkiGreen]

It was a little 'shocking' to see the new opening sequences when I watched the 7:00PM airing by CTV. But then, I guess it makes sense since mothership did a new opening for the time Michael Imperioli filled in JLM at the end of last season. Then I watched the 9:00 airing by NBC and I must admit I enjoyed it more the second time around. I've been looking forward to the return of Logan and Mikey did not disappoint.

I think the new partners did okay, considering it was their first case together and she's gotten used to working alone.

The best scene, for me, has to be Logan waiting outside the bar, waiting rather calmly with his arms folded, for the dealer to squirm his way out the bathroom window. I guess Logan will be delivering the snark: "What's your hurry? Gotta a date with a doughnut?" ;D

[ccngen]

I am a newcomer... I have been watching CI since a year ago, and I have never stopped loving it. Probably because I am always crazy with detective show, and this one just fits my taste because of Goren's super-detective power

I enjoyed this show. Some new elements! I enjoy the chemistry between Logan and Barek. Barek is a smart lady, and I enjoy watching her. I think she can do the job right! So, I really hope we all give her a chance.

Her "dull" character, as some of you put it is from my point of view is a normal characteristic a normal human being, or a normal cop would have. I like that. It is more real-life portraying... And, Logan's less-aggresive personality compared to 10(?) years ago makes sense to me, because -- first, it has been a while ago, and people change; and, second, he really wants to fit in.

Of course, I would love to see Goren more

[Summerfield]

I have a question: Is it legal for minors in New York to purchase liquor?

[Cassie]

New York
- No one under the age of 21 is allowed to buy or posses alcohol. But you can drink alcohol if you are a student in a curriculum licensed or registered by the state education department and is required to taste or imbibe alcoholic beverages in courses which are part of the required curriculum. Also you can consume alcohol if it is give to you by your guardian or parent.

www.youthrights.org/dastatelist.shtml

Ok Summerfield, you gave me a reason to rewatch last nights episode.

[javawolf]

Nikki, I laughed out loud at that part! That was very, *racks her brain for correct wording*, very Logan-ish of him wasn't it? Yes, yes. Funny. That, and I liked his line, "Whoa, back it up, speed-racer."

Sirenna, I know what you're saying. I was asking myself a similar question, though I didn't dwell on it long enough to realize how wrong it was. It seemed that in almost every episode before somebody mentioned why any particular case had been handed to Major Case, like an almost-toxic-spill-accident, (No Exit) or something to that effect.

But they're not always right. We do have to grant the writers a little poetic licence. It kills me when they get little things wrong, but they can't know everything. Having three new, original episodes for three different television shows every single week has got to be taxing.

[Sirenna]

But my point is, whether or not it fit the definition of MCS before, there was always an edge to the crime that made it just that little bit more difficult at least it was something more than the average detectives could solve. It wasn't just junkies out of control. Here that's all it was. Poetic license is one thing. I mean I'm willing to overlook how on earth an underage kid was so reliably able to purchase liquor but what was the point of this episode?!

[Sirenna]

By the way I don't give a hoot about the little inconsistencies although they do get a lot of mileage on the boards.

I didn't find Barek too bad but Logan was definately more interesting which was something I wasn't expecting.

[Observer2]

Well, it feels like old times again. When I first started posting on the old USA board, I often found myself wondering if I had seen the same episode as everyone else. At least this time Catbird seems to have watched the same episode that I did.

Catbird, you mentioned Bishop... I’m not sure how many people actually softened their attitudes towards her, or whether what you’re remembering is those of us who liked her all along suggesting that some of those who didn’t were reacting to the fact that she wasn’t Eames. In either case, I agree that some of those who are reacting in a more jaundiced way than I would have expected from them may be having a similar kind of reaction to this team.

I, for one, am just as glad that Berek isn’t like the lead in The Closer. As much as I like profilers, I could only get through a couple of episodes of that series. The fact is that, in real life, every woman I’ve ever seen who made it to upper levels of law enforcement has had both a strong and a very self-contained personality. Sciorra may have suffered from overconfidence in her audience. She was not uninterested or sleepwalking. Berek’s reactions were there, and in some cases were sharp or intense; but her ways of expressing them were low-key and self-contained – as I would expect from a woman who was that successful in law enforcement. People who don’t like Eames, or don’t read her well, have similar complaints about her. As viewers get more used to Berek, they may begin to read her more easily, and therefore see her as more emotionally engaged. And as Catbird suggested, she may also gradually relax more around her new colleagues, and begin to express herself a bit more freely around them.

The one real criticism of Berek that I agree with was LOCIfan’s comment that Berek has “...absolutely no sense of humor.” She certainly didn’t show any in this ep, and that could get tiresome before very long. Hopefully, as she gets more comfortable with Logan and her position in MCS, the writers will allow her to begin showing a sense of humor. It’s an important coping mechanism for many people in high stress jobs... and, from the viewers’ perspective, it’s an important element in this kind of show.

Catbird, you said that “...the exposition was a little clunky ("How many languages do you speak?")...” and I have to admit that my first reaction to that scene was similar. But I think that, for me, at least, that reaction was only because I was automatically comparing it to Goren and Eames. When I think just in terms of Logan and Berek, within the context of this episode, that scene seems perfectly natural. Berek’s easy – and very useful – shift into another language certainly caught Logan’s attention. I admit to having seen very little of Logan outside of Criminal Intent (the movie, and two episodes of L&O), but him asking her about it made sense to me, both from what I’ve seen of him and in context with his backstory. One of his patterns seems to be collecting and cataloging resources (e.g., the list of known diamond fences – complete with a notation of when the list was last updated); and in New York City every language your partner knows could be a valuable resource. His direct question, and her direct, if somewhat uncomfortable, response, made an interesting contrast to the way Eames and Goren deal with the same issue. And Berek’s completely serious reaction to Logan’s comment about knowing how to say “Stop! Police!” and “What’s your sign?” in 15 different languages clinched the impression that she’s not much good at easy, humorous banter – another contrast with Eames.

I agree that Berek’s use in the interrogation scene of what she had deduced about Logan was pretty shocking. But I don’t think it was a flaw in the writing at all. I saw it as extremely revealing about Berek’s character. She was as ruthless with her partner as Goren is with himself – using whatever she thought would be effective to get the response she was after out of the suspect – and doing it very early in their partnership (though she had already had significant opportunities to observe and assess him). As you said, it was a remarkable contrast – not something we would ever expect to see Goren do to Eames, at least not without some kind of signal from Eames that she was okay with it. Logan’s reactions were also revealing... I’m pleased with Noth’s skill as an actor, and I feel that I’ve gotten a lot of information about Logan from this episode. Berek is a more contained character, and I’ll be interested to learn more about her over time – like whether she’s willing to be as ruthless with her own feelings as she is with her partner’s...

As to the pool hall scene, I’ve seen very little of L&O, but I knew a reference to Lenny when I heard one. It was a nice touch – a little acknowledgement from the writers, and an interesting example of how Logan can touch on real feelings without showing a hint of vulnerability.

It was also interesting that Berek didn’t interfere with Logan’s on-the-edge behavior in that scene. She was clearly tense and uncomfortable with it; but she may have felt that Logan had more street experience and she should back his play... as long as it didn’t go too far (there was no physical harm done – I’ve seen real cops get a lot more physical than that on tape, within what they consider normal). She seemed a bit anxious – wary about how the other pool players might react, as well as about what her partner might do – she looked around at the players there somewhat nervously as she pushed her jacket back and put her hand on her weapon. I can’t say I really blame her – I suspect that a couple of well-dressed strangers getting rough with a regular might easily find the other regulars closing ranks into an unfriendly mob...

I enjoyed the episode, and I look forward to watching these characters and this partnership develop. It strikes me as a different kind of show than the original Criminal Intent, but similar enough in some ways to keep my attention. I remember the old Sunday night mysteries – 3 or 4 different series that alternated, one week Columbo, one week MacMillion and Wife, one week McCloud... of course, on some level, I wished it was Columbo every week... but I enjoyed McCloud anyway. So if I can’t have Goren and Eames every week, well, at least I’ve got an interesting alternate to watch in-between times.

Oh, yeah, about the preview for next week... yeah, that looks like Goren doing a little dance in casual... *very* casual... street clothes. Possibly street person clothes. I also like the little clip with both of them dressed as doctors. That could be fun. But the final clip – taken so out of context – really cracked me up. I’m sure it’s part of an intense scene – Goren looks pretty angry/aggressive. But seeing it out of context, and being a dog trainer, I immediately got an image of him facing down a *very* bad dog – “SIT!!!” LOL! I should invite him to come to one of my classes as a guest instructor! Anyway, it looks like an interesting episode. I’m intrigued to see how they adapted the “headline” it’s at least partly based on (a case I saw profiled on a non-fiction forensic show).

[Observer2]

Techguy,

I was really surprised to read your comment that the use of diamonds in this episode meant that “...CI had "been there, done that."” Both the psychological elements and the track of the investigation were very different. If the robberies had focused on designer watches, or furs, for instance, would you have seen the two episodes as being so parallel? I don’t see the episodes as being very parallel at all. If anything, the element of diamonds being involved served, for me, to highlight the differences.


Spedteacher,

First, welcome to the board. I’m glad you were interested enough to come here and let your voice be heard.

My experience with the term “mental retardation” is a bit different from yours.

I work for a psychologist who does both testing and therapy with people who have varying types of mental disabilities – including mental retardation (as well as some who have to deal with co-morbid mental retardation and personality disorders). Mental disability is a broad category, and mental retardation is a specific form of it – not a derogatory term. Our office regularly receives the American Journal of Mental Retardation, and at www.aamr.org you can find the American Association on Mental Retardation. I think the writers used the term that is most widely accepted on professional levels, and they carefully used the full term, rather than just “retardation” or “retarded,” to avoid any derogatory implications. There may be some people among those who work for rights for the disabled who feel that the term “mentally retarded” should not be used at all. But Berek’s psychological training would be to use the clinically accurate, standard terminology, so it makes sense to me that the writers had her use that term.


Metella,

Hi there! When did Goren walk by?? I would have thought I would have noticed him...

I don’t agree that Berek let it be known that “...she had worked in MC for a long time solo.” She said she had worked alone for too long, but didn’t say it was in the MCS. Didn’t I read somewhere that her backstory includes a stint where she was detailed to the FBI? Maybe she worked without a real partner there... Or whatever.

I don’t think we’ve been given any information about how long she’s been with MCS, or whether she just arrived, maybe even after Logan did. That might make sense, considering that Logan had been with Major Case during Grow, and near the end of that episode Deakins said he had someone he wanted Logan to meet... the implication being that it might have been his new partner. If Berek had already been working for MC it seems to me that he would likely have already met her around the squad room.

On the other hand, I do agree with you about the drawbacks of having such different opening credits. It makes it too much like two different series – too much like Columbo and McCloud, instead of being like SVU with just a bit more separation between the teams. Which credits will they use for the 2-hour episode where the two teams work together?

I would much rather see opening credits more like SVU’s, rather than see them trying so hard to stay with the original L&O-style credits.

Of course, one problem with combining the credits might be that, where SVU has a lead team and a secondary team – which makes the order of the credits easy to determine – with Criminal Intent, things could get more complicated.

Maybe they could have two variations of the same credits – one where Noth and Sciorra are shown first, and one where D’Onofrio and Erbe are shown first, both versions ending with a group shot similar to SVU (though perhaps a little less stagy). That might solve the problem of order of credits, without making it seem like two totally different series.


Sirenna,

As I understand it, cases often get assigned to MCS for political/PR reasons. A crime in which women and a child were terrorized and someone was murdered for opening the door too slowly could make the city look bad. If it remained unsolved and highly publicized, it might even affect tourism. It makes sense to me that the Chief of Police and/or Mayor might want MCS to take it, both to get it solved quickly and to reassure the public that the best available resources were being used to solve it.

Like you, I missed the sense of humor we usually see in Criminal Intent.


Mimi,

You said, “I wouldn't be surprised if the relationship between Barek/Logan is more closely knitted than the respectul yet cold relationship between Goren/Eames.”

Well, I can see the potential for Berek and Logan to develop a strong partnership. But I’m startled that anyone could see the relationship between Goren and Eames as “cold.”

The relationship between Goren and Eames has always been close and mutually supportive. Perhaps some of the evidence of that is subtle... but some is clear and obvious. A scene that springs to mind is in Shibboleth, when Goren and Eames are with the ME, examining the victim’s body. Goren works at making the different ligature marks fit together into a coherent picture. Then puzzle pieces come together, and he suddenly realizes how the woman died – and he’s empathetic enough to be deeply distressed by it. Eames sees his reaction and goes to his side, offering her silent concern and support. Of course, a lot of their interactions are like that... a matter of noticing body language and expressions, or supportive gestures, as in Pas de Duex, when Eames was so shaken by having nearly killed a man over a starter’s pistol, or in Jones, when Goren pulled the chair out for her when she had had to put up with the guy’s slimy advances. I just don’t get how someone can watch their interactions over time, and describe their relationship as cold. But I seem to recall that you and I have had to agree to disagree before. I guess it’s another one of those times.

[janetcatbird]

Cassie & Summerfield: while that may be the law now in New York, Logan would have grown up in the '50s/60s when things were probably a little looser-- especially, I would imagine, if Logan grew up in a neighborhood where the grocer knew his parents and the other locals. Heck, my parents went to the stores to buy cigarettes for their parents--course this was the country area of North Carolina, but same generation. (Mom was raised Southern Baptist so they certianly wouldn't have sent her to buy likker, but apparently cancer sticks were fair game.) Even the drinking age was 18 at that time, I don't know when it was raised to 21 but my parents are roughly Logan's age and it was changed after their college years. (Which brings up the whole thing about you can vote at 18, you can be sent to war to kill and be killed at 18, but you can't have a beer at a ball game til you're 21. Not that I especially want to knock back a cold one--I hate beer and wine--but oh those wacky blue laws.)

Oh my word, Observer and I are seeing eye-to-eye on an episode? In terms of character nuances? Stop the world I wanna get off!! Hee hee, kinda fun being on the same side!

About the humor thing, they may just didn't want to overdo it with Logan's wisecracking self on hand. Plus, Barek was working alone for a while, so she may have to readjust her sense of what you can and can't joke about in that professional setting (she certainly did a double take when Logan tried to be flippant about his mother's abusiveness). But don't forget, there have been a couple instances where Goren was absorbed in his analysis and kind of missed that Eames was being snarky ("Sharks don't have scales"). Shoot, I get oblivious and miss out on humor when I'm tired or distracted--which is a whole new source of levity, but we won't go there.

--Catbird