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Post by Sirenna on Oct 3, 2005 21:50:01 GMT -5
Thoughtful comments as always, Observer! Is Spedteacher short for Special Ed teacher?
At least the episode generates discussion and firm opinions. That's my gauge of how good an episode is. How bad it is would be when it generates no discussion at all.
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Post by darmok on Oct 3, 2005 21:50:08 GMT -5
I agree that the Goren and Eames relationship is not cold. It is subtle but not cold, and it has grown closer the last season and a half (since the baby). In fact it may be closer because of her absence, as witnessed in FPS. Bishop: I don't understand. Goren: Eames would have.
She gave him criticism but support in Pas de Deux. She was also concerned about him in Great Barrier when they were playing the tape from Anti-Thesis.
He supports her less obviously, but he grins at her jokes when he gets them. He also is careful (at least in the later seasons) not to talk down to her. He may talk her through one of his ideas, but he doesn't talk down. And now he doesn't have to spoon feed her; she cathes on fast and often comes up with theories on her own now.
They can say so much to each other with a subtle look. It will take a long while before Logan and Barek are that way.
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Post by Sirenna on Oct 3, 2005 21:52:13 GMT -5
True it would take years but they only have the next five months! :-D
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Post by Jefferaldo on Oct 4, 2005 5:49:48 GMT -5
Looks like I am THE minority on this one--so Barek was toned down. Maybe that's her character, in a new situation she's more reserved, and once the character gets comfortable she'll loosen up a bit. Shoot, I'm the same way, and I talk to myself. (Personally I think the thinking-out-loud was a bit overdone, but once they establish her maybe it'll ease up.) Besides, maybe the character is meant to be even-keeled and low-key, a lot of people in the real world are that way. As to Barek, with everyone concerned about Logan, the last thing she wants is to create more complications. (As I have not seen Annabelle Sciorra in anything I can't really say if it's the actress or not.) But didn't people say similar stuff about Bishop back in season 3, only to look back and say "Well, she wasn't Eames and that's what we didn't like?" I think a lot of this is "She's not Goren!" Well, duh--as people on this board seem so fond of pointing out, Goren is one-of-a-kind. I like the contrast, for the one and only episode we've seen so far. As I said before, give it time. I'm not saying I don't prefer Goren/Eames, but a new dynamic is interesting. I didn't despise the characters, but I thought the story itself was, well, middling. And I hated the camerawork/music during the robbery scenes. That mother was a piece of work, though, wasn't she? As to the language of "retarded" vs. "disabled", you would expect certain characters who aren't sensitive to use the "retarded" term (the coworkers, junkies, etc.), even Logan has never been known for being PC. But you would expect Barek or someone else in the system to know better. Metella--no, I didn't see Goren in the background, and I was looking for him and Eames. But it makes sense they'd be floating through the police station, a nice touch. Am I the only one who noticed the Lenny mention? Or Deakins' walking? I totally agree with you, janet. This is not the Criminal Intent we know at the moment, but like anything new, give it time and it will work out. For example, the first episode of CI I saw, was "One". Halfway through, during the head dipping, I thought that Goren was the crappiest character. However, it was the only show remotely interesting at that timeslot so I kept watching it a few weeks and I started to really like it. As for the robbery scenes, what the hell did they do? employ monkeys for the music and the camera work? Absolute trash they were. I liked the plot and unlike others, I liked Barek and Logan equally, but currently not at the level of Eames/Goren.
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Post by Jefferaldo on Oct 4, 2005 6:00:41 GMT -5
Also, on the topic of opening credits, as observer mentioned, should have both teams of detectives in it and have Goren, Eames, Logan and Barek at what I call the "final walk" outside 1pp. It does star all those characters and I doubt that "The Girl Next Door" will be the only episode where both teams of detectives butt heads.
In my opinion, the credits should go in this order: Vincent D'Onofrio, Chris Noth, Annabella Sciorra, Kathryn Erbe, Jamey Sheridan, Courtney B. Vance. Reason I put Kathryn Erbe last in the Detective Line up is because she gets the least lines out of all the detectives (I love her one liners) and as TV Guide says, she should get an emmy just for letting Vincent hog the screen. But, I don't think that'll change anytime soon. However, if it does: Vincent D'Onofrio, Kathryn Erbe, Chris Noth, Annabella Sciorra, Jamey Sheridan, and Courtney B. Vance. It isn't like they can't fit all those people in, I mean look at SVU, they have 8 (now that they've added Tamara Tunie) to the credited cast and it still flows perfectly.
On the issue of whether Logan/Barek is likeable, Many of you seem to have hated the pair up before the season even started. I've read countless numbers of threads stating (maybe not on this board but I've read too many and already sick of them) that the person would only watch the Goren/Eames episodes and refuse to watch Logan/Barek episodes. Give them a break. Watch them for a full season and then, if you still don't like them, I would like to know why. I for one, enjoyed the new pair. It gave a different, new, unique feel to CI which I want to see more of in the future.
*braces self for stones*
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Post by Jefferaldo on Oct 4, 2005 6:14:26 GMT -5
Another issue, (sorry for the consecutive posts) you guys posted that you felt sorry for Logan when Barek reached for her gun. According to a script excerpt I read, Barek reached for her gun because a "big man" (if I recall correctly) stood up after Logan grabbed the guys chain and Barek reached for her gun which was enough to have the guy back away. I'll have to watch the scene again more closely to see if that actually happened or not.
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Post by mimi1802 on Oct 4, 2005 9:19:20 GMT -5
Mimi, Well, I can see the potential for Berek and Logan to develop a strong partnership. But I’m startled that anyone could see the relationship between Goren and Eames as “cold.” Observer, I knew you would stick specifically on that comment. Cold might be inappropriate but I do see the relationship between Goren and Eames as a distant one. And the contrast was more apparent when I saw how Logan and Barek connected with each other and on what level. But knowing Logan from the Mothership I suspected it would go in that direction. Logan did mouth off in last week's episode that he likes working alone, but I didn't believe him. I don't believe for one second that Goren and Eames don't care for each other or don't respect one another. But Goren personality-wise is like this unnattainable Mount Everest that you know is there but need to fasten your seatbelt if you want to reach it. Goren for me is a person who created job-related relationships with his colleagues based on respect and mutual understanding but I believe if he can stay in the background he does. The personal door is always closed. Do I mind? Yes. But that's an entire other debate...and I don't want to go there because I'm going to get killed if I say what I really think of Goren. The two relationships are different and involve their respective risks. I don't see these relationships as a bad one. And I have no problem disagreeing with you Observer. I could bring instances where the distance between Goren and Eames is apparent. But you could come back with more instances where it's the opposite. We see what we see because of who we are. I find Goren's personality annoying, still Goren is not without interest for me. But I don't find the character very engaging.
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Post by Metella on Oct 4, 2005 9:35:45 GMT -5
addition on the bar scene - my interpretation was that she was getting her gun "ready" in case some of the others tried to interrupt Logan; not that she was getting ready to step in and stop Logan. She looked a bit startled at his actions, but not angry or disgusted - she was ok with his actions.
I may not be in the mood to spar today, Observer. I usually like to be challenged by your take on things; here I'm gloomy and just feeling that you are taking the CI side do or die & it may all be blamed on MY mood and not you. The flavor I got from your posts was not discussion but lecturing - as we are being told how things are, not how you are interpreting it. Ah well, let's pass it off as my gloom and move on.
I think you are posting at intervals far too extended - are you still having pc troubles? I thought you were getting an upgrade?
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Post by Jefferaldo on Oct 4, 2005 10:06:31 GMT -5
addition on the bar scene - my interpretation was that she was getting her gun "ready" in case some of the others tried to interrupt Logan; not that she was getting ready to step in and stop Logan. She looked a bit startled at his actions, but not angry or disgusted - she was ok with his actions. I may not be in the mood to spar today, Observer. I usually like to be challenged by your take on things; here I'm gloomy and just feeling that you are taking the CI side do or die & it may all be blamed on MY mood and not you. The flavor I got from your posts was not discussion but lecturing - as we are being told how things are, not how you are interpreting it. Ah well, let's pass it off as my gloom and move on. I think you are posting at intervals far too extended - are you still having pc troubles? I thought you were getting an upgrade? Yes, Barek was getting her gun "ready" as you say. This is in accordance with the script.
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Post by Criminal Mastermind on Oct 4, 2005 10:35:38 GMT -5
OK I'll take cover now............... ...and I don't want to go there because I'm going to get killed if I say what I really think of Goren. Hum ... you guys must be used to hanging out with a rough crowd. No one throws stones here, and the very few that tried it no longer post here. This is a friendly board, and a free speech zone. Feel free to use it
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Post by Observer2 on Oct 4, 2005 10:58:11 GMT -5
Mimi,
Thanks for your reply. I think I have a better sense now of what you meant by “cold,” so I understand more why you would say that about their relationship – even though I still see it somewhat differently.
Metella,
I’m sorry you’re in such a gloomy mood. But I also know that your reaction to my posts may not just be because of how you’re feeling. I’ve been told before that I sometimes sound like I’m lecturing people, so I think that’s one of my weaknesses as a writer. I try to make it clear that I’m expressing my own perceptions, interpretations and opinions; but sometimes, especially when I’m talking about the reasons for my opinions, I apparently come across as lecturing, rather than participating in a discussion. I don’t mean to do that, and I apologize for it.
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Post by Patcat on Oct 4, 2005 12:57:17 GMT -5
To new people--this is, as Criminal Mastermind said, a friendly board. Please post.
Observer--I don't get the sense you're lecturing at all. Just wish you'd post more.
Patcat
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Post by Metella on Oct 4, 2005 13:26:37 GMT -5
Oh, no need to apologize; I just wasn't engaged in your response & even when I disagree I am usually all tuned in.
So? is your pc still pooping out on you?
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Post by trisha on Oct 4, 2005 17:12:41 GMT -5
Well, Observer, you made me want to watch this one a second time, and I didn't think that was going to happen for quite a while.
I didn't hate this episode, or Barek, and definitely not Logan. I just wasn't very engaged by Barek. She seemed very dull to me, and there didn't seem to be any spark between her and Logan. I guess Logan sparks enough all by himself, but I was really hoping to like her. I'll give her time. I never said I wouldn't. And, even if I never feel engaged by her, I'll still tune in for Logan.
I know that Kyra Sedgwick's character in The Closer is less that realistic, but that girl has spunk, and I so admire that in a person, and I disagree that it's one of the things that make her unrealistic. I think only women who don't allow themselves to be beaten down make it in jobs like hers. If she just laid back, she wouldn't get noticed or promoted. It seems to me that this true with all jobs where the workforce was/is primarily male dominated, and appears to be twice as true when it comes to police work.
Anyway, I've only seen a few eps of that show, and while I wasn't enthused enough to remember to tune in, whenever I come across it while channel flipping I stick around for at least the next commercial break. I really liked the episode where she was being charged with conduct unbecoming, and thought Sedgwick did an excellent job throughout. I think that if you see one episode of that show, it should be that one as it addresses some of the things you take issue with in her character. IIRC, the person who filed the charge against her was a jealous male rival.
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Post by mimi1802 on Oct 4, 2005 18:40:11 GMT -5
Hum ... you guys must be used to hanging out with a rough crowd. No one throws stones here, and the very few that tried it no longer post here. So you're saying I can sell off my guano-proof vest on E-Bay? Darn it looked good with all my outfits. ;D
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