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Post by ypomoni on Jul 1, 2009 10:56:26 GMT -5
the shove didn't seem that out-of-character to me. This case was very personal for Bobby, more than he knew he was allowed to reveal. He knew he had to be calm, cool and collected to crack this case (and to protect Eames, just in case!). I just assumed it was all that pent up frustration and worrying over Alex that ultimately was let loose, in a form of a shove, forcing the perp in a position which resembled a bow before Eames. Goren's way of telling them both that he was nothing compared to Eames....maybe I was reading to much into it! hehehe....
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Post by Patcat on Jul 1, 2009 12:47:39 GMT -5
My perspective on the incident in DEPTHS is that Bobby didn't shove the perp into the water--he just didn't keep the perp from falling into the water.
Now, in SELF-MADE, Bobby did allow his anger to come out in his treatment of the has-been author. I think Bobby might have frightened himself in that case.
I have to confess the shove in this case didn't even register with me, but I really need to see this episode again.
Patcat
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Irene
Rookie
"You blew your chance."
Posts: 48
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Post by Irene on Jul 1, 2009 12:59:45 GMT -5
Hey guys, thanks for your compliments as well as your dissenting opinions! I love intelligent discourse. Sorry I don't know how to do the pick-up on multiple quotes... annabelleleigh said: …almost every statement, every "personal" reference made by Goren or Eames to a suspect or a witness is a lie, a scam, a manipulation devised to elicit information or a confession…. Deception is the signature G/E modus operandi. It's the way these characters investigate crimes. There's no deeper truths to be read between these lines (about the G/E relationship) because the lines themselves are meant to be improvised lies.On the surface, Goren and Eames are simply interrogating suspects. Agreed, we know that they often use role playing, Good-cop/Bad-cap ploys, manipulative and provocative questioning tactics designed to get a response. Additionally, there will be subtext that reflects Goren and/or Eames subliminal motivations. These might be judgments (Goren’s issues with bad fathers), or attitudes (Eames general desire to enlighten male-dependent women). In more psychologically complex episodes or those with G/E relationship issues, the writers expertly inject additional layers of meaning that reflect more immediate and personal frustrations. I think this is what made LOCI stand out from so many other television shows for so long. I am continually astonished by the notion that a man and a woman could not have a long-term professional relationship that blossomed into friendship but not romance.That's because you don't live in a TV show. Except in the imaginations of some fans, there has not been a scintilla of obvious sexual tension between Goren and Eames in nine years.I believe there has been much more than a scintilla. A common plot device since the dawn of storytelling, sexual tension engages audiences on a level beyond plot. Adroitly used, the audience will feel an attraction between characters, even if the characters themselves deny it, and especially when the characters are unable to act on it. It’s particularly potent when the plot allows for the possibility that the tension be released, teasing the audience that resolution is near, but pulling back just before, to a point where it has to rebuild again over time. (I call this the emotional equivalent to “blue balls”.) LOCI has been yanking our chain for years. Don’t look for any resolutions unless you want the series to end. “Unresolved sexual tension. It's the engine that makes television run.” — Michael Weatherly, in an NCIS episode commentary tjara said: I seem to be the only one that didn't like the shove…I kinda agree. It was a little much. Sorta felt the same "grand theatrical gesture" alarm go off when he held up the cuffs, but then that also reminded me of when he held up the car keys for Eames in "Siren Call." Anyone else think that? Kevin is displaying the "female behavior", just like when his closets are all orderly.I believe the orderly closets would fall under the male side. It is a symptom of (the Freudian) Anal Retentive complex: and usually signifies the need for control, often afflicting those with obsessive personality disorders. The “messy” wall with all the Post-It notes would imply creativity or non-linear thinking, designated as feminine traits. Here’s an excerpt from Wikipedia about the anima/animus of which Goren spoke. It’s probably more than anyone wants, but I find this all so fascinating: The anima and animus, in Carl Jung's school of analytical psychology, are the unconscious or true inner self of an individual, as opposed to the persona or outer aspect of the personality. In the unconscious of the male, it finds expression as a feminine inner personality: anima; equivalently, in the unconscious of the female, it is expressed as a masculine inner personality: animus. It can be identified as the totality of the unconscious feminine psychological qualities that a male possesses; or the masculine ones possessed by the female. Jung stated that the anima/animus archetype was not totally unconscious, calling it "a little bit conscious and unconscious."[1] In the interview, he gave an example of a man who falls head over heels in love, then later in life regrets his blind choice as he finds that he has married his own anima–the unconscious idea of the feminine in his mind, rather than the woman herself. The anima is usually an aggregate of a man's but may also incorporate aspects of sisters, aunts, and teachers. The anima is one of the most significant autonomous complexes of all. It manifests itself by appearing as figures in dreams as well as by influencing a man's interactions with women and his attitudes toward them, and vice versa for females and the animus. Jung said that confronting one's shadow self is an "apprentice-piece", while confronting one's anima is the masterpiece. Jung viewed the anima process as being one of the sources of creative ability. [bold emphasis is mine.] Here’s the link if anyone’s interested: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anima_and_animusdonnajo said: Irene, please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't know quite what to make of your "Silver Lining" analysis. Do you really see the episode that way? Or are you simply being entertaining? Is your analysis tongue in cheek or deadly serious? Either way, I sure got a kick out of it.Glad you got a kick. I had fun writing it. “Silver Lining” is one of those episodes that the writer(s), I’m convinced, purposely intersperse with relationship cues just to keep viewers guessing. In this case, there’s actually a complete arc woven in. On the surface, the story is about a guy who’s so meticulous and expert in his chosen field, even Goren is blown away (Eames: He’s laughing at us. Goren: So would I if I were that good.). Wesley dreams of a normal life (wife, baby, home) but can’t fight his nature. His significant other is independent, hard-as-nails, but toys with thoughts of romance. This scenario already begs for a comparison with Goren and Eames superficially, so why not layer it with subtext that speaks to the personal side of that issue? Fans who want to see something, will. Fans who don’t, won’t notice. When I have time, I’ll do a full reading of this episode and post it in the proper ep-thread. It’ll be sure to include the Eames/Sheila similitude. They’re both pretty tough cookies who picked up a few moves from their dads. patcat said: I don't think, to take one point, that Eames lied about not sleeping with KevinHmm. Yeah, sorry. I can’t get past the fact that LOCI gives us a primer on body language every few episodes (e.g. “Scared Crazy”) and specifically tells us that people usually don’t hold eye contact, and their eyes look down when they lie. (It’s also pretty common knowledge). It was a conscious choice on the part of Erbe to play the scene that way and tells me: Okay folks, this is going to be a lie. I write fanfic…that frequent ships, but I'm not sure if I really believe Goren and Eames have a sexual and/or romantic relationship. As much as I’m tempted, patcat, I’m afraid I’d never be able to read the fanfic. I couldn’t bear seeing (reading) Goren and Eames actually hooking up. That’s why I like the show. It’s so deliciously ambiguous, it lets each viewer fill in the blanks however they want. Sometimes I’ll watch an episode and “think procedural” and have a completely different experience than when I “think affair.” These writers are GOOD with all the layers they construct. If G/E ever made it on screen, I’d never watch the show again. maherjunkie said: I don't think Goren and Eames really do like each other in that way, it's just fun to pretend or speculate. I mostly just love the personal, having little use for the strict procedural.So nicely, and succinctly put. Ypomoni said: For example, Irene, regarding the beer incident with Mulroney's father's, it never crossed my mind that he was contradicting himself. To me it seemed that when Goren said he'd "love to but...." what was implied (and what I thought Mulroney's father's, was expected to understand) was that he was a cop on duty, and therefore not allowed to drink on the job!I confess. I sorta tacked that one on. But in more civilized circles, it’s usually not polite to drink alone when you have guests. And in what was probably going to be a short meeting, Pa Mulroney could have waited. I think I was responding to the fact that after Goren declines, implying he's on the job, Pa says "Right," and then sits down with his beer. You know, they're trying to conduct business and he's sitting down with a beer. Also, it was more the rhythm of Pa's lines. With every statement he'd start out one way, then turn off in another. Very good writing. Subtle but effective. outerbankschick said: A peacock with no tail.Nice visual! I loved all the Bobby fun, too. The playing drunk, the squeezing of the guy in the interrogation room, and all that snooping. Opening the TV cabinet, the closet doors. I keep hearing the dad from Cherry Red: "You're awfully snoopy!" Keep snooping, Bobby! I love it!Of course! The snoopy-ness of Goren. Thanks for that. I’d been missing it too!
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Post by quietfireca on Jul 1, 2009 13:12:24 GMT -5
the shove didn't seem that out-of-character to me. This case was very personal for Bobby, more than he knew he was allowed to reveal. He knew he had to be calm, cool and collected to crack this case (and to protect Eames, just in case!). I just assumed it was all that pent up frustration and worrying over Alex that ultimately was let loose, in a form of a shove, forcing the perp in a position which resembled a bow before Eames. Goren's way of telling them both that he was nothing compared to Eames....maybe I was reading to much into it! hehehe.... Sweet! I appreciate it! My much more boring interpretation was just that it was a way to keep Mulrooney busy and shut him up while he handed the cuffs to Alex (nice warm handcuffs from his pocket... I digress). Oh, and maybe getting some satisfying mini revenge for twisting Alex on a string. (or was that more fundamental? natural selection at work - to borrow OBC's words - a peacock - but Goren in full plummage triumphing in front of his harem? roflol! Look where this has taken me.... Time to get some work done) Goren's physicality is always there. You could almost say my recent video was about the physical Goren (light). www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCS4KTAVgj4&feature=channel_pageBut the really heavy physical Goren is reserved for the men "closer" to him; Frank, Declan and MFB and you can see those instances in Hallelujah www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgWeapqqMK0&feature=channel_page where he throws each of them against a wall. When a guy is that large, it must be so tempting to be physical when frustrated. Size and testosterone (and mj stop it, I know what you're thinking!) doesn't necessarily make for a lovable teddy bear. Figure into that an authority (law enforcement) figure and I think Goren is extremely restrained.
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susan1212
Detective
Yeah. I get that.
Posts: 444
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Post by susan1212 on Jul 1, 2009 13:23:59 GMT -5
Just wanted to weigh in saying how much I enjoyed this episode and the conversation it has stirred.
As OBC mentioned, I, too, loved the Robert sitting in Faith Yancy's chair scene. The way he kept asking his questions, yet seemed so taken with himself on camera, was a Vincent classic formulated only for Goren!
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Post by quietfireca on Jul 1, 2009 13:38:07 GMT -5
Just wanted to weigh in saying how much I enjoyed this episode and the conversation it has stirred. As OBC mentioned, I, too, loved the Robert sitting in Faith Yancy's chair scene. The way he kept asking his questions, yet seemed so taken with himself on camera, was a Vincent classic formulated only for Goren! Perhaps he was sizing up the chair for his post-law enforcement career.... ;D What would he say given an open forum - and who would be the advertisers? The mind boggles.
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susan1212
Detective
Yeah. I get that.
Posts: 444
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Post by susan1212 on Jul 1, 2009 13:51:04 GMT -5
Perhaps, Suzanne! lol I'd watch it!
By the way, thanks for the afternoon vid break. Nothing like seeing Robert to brighten the day!
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Post by tjara on Jul 1, 2009 13:54:32 GMT -5
While I can't change what Sigmund Freund and Carl Jung said (other than that I don't agree with them on all counts), I think it doesn't apply here, inspite of the reference Goren makes later.
Just check out Mulrooney's office. I'd definitely say his male/lawyer side it the messy side, the female is the oderly half. Though it does seem to contradict the crime, in which part was done "oderly" and part was messy, and I doubt that a male would do the messy part.
Maybe it's one of the contradictions in Mulrooney himself.
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Post by DonnaJo on Jul 1, 2009 13:58:21 GMT -5
Irene writes:
"If G/E ever made it on screen, I’d never watch the show again."WORD. And thank you for your gracious response to my question.
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Post by tjara on Jul 1, 2009 13:59:04 GMT -5
I've seen all of Season 7 DonnaJo, and I agree with Patcat. In Depths, he didn't shove but he simply didn't prevent the fall. And in Self-Made, he was over the top, and he definitely scared Eames, and probably himself, too. I'd see it more as a lead-in for Untethered. And even if, Bobby has healed or is healing. He shouldn't do it. As Suzanne pointed out, he usually only does it when it's very personal to him. Also, this seemed kind of "after the fact". He had allready broken the guy, he'd already won.
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susan1212
Detective
Yeah. I get that.
Posts: 444
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Post by susan1212 on Jul 1, 2009 14:00:13 GMT -5
Oh, and cadesdad, I noticed the "pace" thing too. Took me a while to get used to it.
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Post by ypomoni on Jul 1, 2009 14:14:42 GMT -5
Thank you for the vids quietfireca! I left comments over on youtube! Both were great!
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Post by quietfireca on Jul 1, 2009 14:24:13 GMT -5
Perhaps, Suzanne! lol I'd watch it! Me, too!!
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Post by Patcat on Jul 1, 2009 14:47:32 GMT -5
Irene--What a great, well thought out and written, civilized response! And it provoked some excellent responses as well. I'll have to mull it over.
And I hope I didn't sound like I was advertising my fanfic. I wasn't. If anything, it's a terrible habit.(g)
Patcat
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heikimikey
Silver Shield Investigator
Communication Junkie
Posts: 100
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Post by heikimikey on Jul 1, 2009 14:57:15 GMT -5
Now I finally watched the episode, and althouhg so much great comments have been made already, I would like to put in my two cents as well.....Techguy: I really loved your comment on this episode.
I had the feeling somehow that a button was pushed with Goren when Mulrooney first showed up: as soon as he made his first nasty remarks, Goren stood to attention like a terrier smelling a rat. I loved the naturalness and sovereignty he put himself in charge for Eames' benefit (I am not sure if this is the right word, but I cannot think of a better one). I believe that his trust in Eames was never shaken, not in the least, and no big words needed therefore, but, as a terrier again, imperturbable on the track. I loved the silent, concerned way he looked at her all through the episode, knowing that this whole case is going to be painful for her (and knowing exaxtly how that feels), but nevertheless stuck to the track. It reminded me very much on his approach in "Amends" . Bottom line: Personal isn't the same as important - we do our job. And since WE are the GOOD guys, we a) do it right, come hell or high water and b) do not need to fear the consequences, since, because WE are the good ones, there will be none we cannot bear.
For me, this was the best episode this season.
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