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Post by trisha on Feb 23, 2005 10:21:06 GMT -5
I still didn't get to watch my recording, but I did label it and in doing so realized how it would look to any non-CIborg's ;D
Anyway, Sirenna! You got right to the heart of the matter for me, too. I thought it was not just a good episode for men's views, but also a good exploration into women's views on women having sex, too. Just a random thought that connects to my feelings on this: in the movie Mean Girls, Tina Fey (my hero) tells a room full of highschool girls to stop calling each other sluts because that makes it okay for guys to do it. I couldn't agree more.
Worse than that, it keeps sex shrouded in shame for us. We're damned if we do, and damned if we don't and it f*cking sucks!
Sadly, the woman we see in this episode is doomed to see sex in a shameful light forever, and the tragedy is that it began with a quest for personal empowerment.
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MelTex
Detective
"I want a Jonny 7 all-in-one gun..."
Posts: 336
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Post by MelTex on Feb 23, 2005 10:37:07 GMT -5
Excellent point Trisha!
The poor thing wanted to build her own self image and empower herself, and in doing that, she'll forever be seen as a sexual deviant or cliche' "Party girl".
I HATE that guys can get away with that kind of behavior, and be idolized as the "THE MAN" ( like Heffner and Bogdonovich's character), and women are condemed for the same actions.
Talk about your unfair double standards...
Thankfully, Goren doesn't seem to follow those double-standard views, he sees that Arquette's character wanted that empowerment and self-identity boost -- gives her a way out to confess, while still reamaining somewhat sensitive to her wanting to keep her daughter shielded from that indescression. Protectiong their bond, and shielding her from the rumors that would surely accompany her mother's actions.
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Post by Sirenna on Feb 23, 2005 12:20:51 GMT -5
ITA, Trisha! (I never knew what that meant either.)
Yes, that's why I like the title and why I don't think its bluntness had anything to do with a superficial reaction to Desperate Housewives and those viewers at all! The title refers not only to the violence of the first crime but so much more too. The title is wholly original and the episode was refreshingly frank about sex.
Look, our mothers do it with and without our fathers, and nothing is more akin to nails down a chalkboard than being the kid in the next room hearing your parents while they're doing it. Sex has so many feelings and nuances associated wiith it from the obvious sensuality and romance to embarassement, violence, freedom, ego, identity, shame, anger. All these things are wrapped up in a ten-minute quickie. Most of them are hardly ever discussed or brought out into the open in families, or in popular culture unless it's for its prurient or shock value. Madonna (of whom I'm a fan) commented once about how much more likely US censor boards were to allow violent scenes, especially depicting women as the victims, than to allow sexual scenes in movies.
Not only that but not only is it ok if you're married - it's actually sanctified. Yet sex clubs, where sex has nothing to do with marriage, procreation or religion are hidden away in society. Women used to be barred from membership. Guys introduce other guys to the membership in order to be let in. It's a closed invitation-only, secretive way of having sex. There's a power imbalance between men and women over sex: Two other connotations embedded in the title. This is espcially true from a woman's point of view. You know that old double standard: a guy's a stud, a woman's a slut.
Sex clubs exist because it's not proper to be a sex-loving mother or wife but neither is it conscionable to be respectful to a whore. Yet in this episode we saw a woman who was killed because she was proud of what she had done and we saw another woman who killed because she wanted to hide what she had done from her daughter who, ironically, would have preferred her mother to be frank about her past.
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Post by Sirenna on Feb 23, 2005 12:24:24 GMT -5
Sex clubs exist in part because men have a hard time accepting that their daughters, wives, mothers can be both wives, daughters, mothers and sexually greedy too.
That's just one of the connotations in the title. Sex club's are for men only although, funnily enough, they wouldn't exist were it not for women.
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Post by Patcat on Feb 23, 2005 14:01:37 GMT -5
MONK had an episode that also featured a pseudo-Hefner/Playboy mansion depiction. In that episode, the Hefner character (very well-played by Gary Cole) was a murderer and a rather pathetic man who had never really grown past his teenage rejections by beautiful girls. Monk, as might be expected, was tremendously embarassed by all of the young women wearing little clothing. When he revealed to several of them his devotion to his late wife by reciting some of her poetry, the women were very attracted to him. I'm not sure of the connection between this and SEX CLUB, but I felt the need to post it. Patcat Edited to remove spoiler space. Mr. Monk Meets the Playboy is quite an old episode and spoiler space is not necessary.
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Post by lisianthus on Feb 23, 2005 15:22:36 GMT -5
Sex as a club to bash women?
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Post by Sirenna on Feb 23, 2005 15:29:25 GMT -5
He He He. that's clever! ;D
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Post by missymagoshi on Feb 23, 2005 15:33:34 GMT -5
Interesting post, Patcat. I wonder how old the Monk episode is and if the CI writer's had any knowledge of it, or if its just a case of the good old collective unconscious at work. From what you described of the episode, I prefer CI's take. The Monk take seems a bit less creative and more run of the mill. I am constantly amazed by how Balcer and his excellent stable of writers never fail to keep me working to figure the story out.
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Post by Techguy on Feb 23, 2005 15:46:33 GMT -5
Sex clubs exist in part because men have a hard time accepting Eh, while I won't deny that many men do have a hard time with this concept, I certainly don't include myself in that group.
Which for some strange reason reminds me of something Woody Allen said in one of his movies, something about (I'm paraphrasing) "I wouldn't want to belong to a club that would accept me as a member." Talk about someone in his own private sex club.
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Post by Patcat on Feb 23, 2005 15:52:30 GMT -5
And if everyone will excuse a more than slightly off color remark
I think it was Woody Allan who said masturbation was sex with someone he loved.
Patcat (who trusts this will be edited if necessary but thought it was ok for this audience, and apologizes if she's just insulted everyone)
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Post by missymagoshi on Feb 23, 2005 16:17:52 GMT -5
I think it was Woody Allan who said masturbation was sex with someone he loved. ok. now that's funny. ;D
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MelTex
Detective
"I want a Jonny 7 all-in-one gun..."
Posts: 336
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Post by MelTex on Feb 23, 2005 16:41:15 GMT -5
Wow, now this is starting to conjur up some disturbing images! *evil grin* Love what you said Sirenna about men (not every guy) having hard times seeing thier mothers, wives daughters and girlfriends as sexual beings. So I really like that Balcer and Wolf decided to show this side of socety, with the Sex Clubs show off that "Hey, its not just the guys who want different experiences with sex." LOL! An actually, the Honey that was first murdered for the black book--I never thought about it really, but she was very proud of her achivements and being a Respectible, Sexual Being. She had no qualms about saying what her former profession was, and that was kinda refreashing to me!
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Post by Sirenna on Feb 23, 2005 20:01:13 GMT -5
SEX, SEX, SEX, SEX, SEX. I just like saying it.
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MelTex
Detective
"I want a Jonny 7 all-in-one gun..."
Posts: 336
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Post by MelTex on Feb 23, 2005 23:09:45 GMT -5
Ooo... say it again.... ;D I always say, you can't go wrong with a title that has SEX in it...*wink* (even if the title of this ep could have had more double-entendre meanings...we still like saying it...)
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Post by Metella on Feb 24, 2005 8:00:41 GMT -5
I can't believe this has trotted down this road without my help. I can hear strains of the song - Nothing But Mammals in the background.
I have to say, I have known my share of males who couldn't get the concept & just one that did. So TechGuy may not be alone in his more logical and reasonable look at the fundamental reason why any of us is here posting ..... but he is in somewhat of a minority - I hope it is a growing minority.
Now, let's snuggle.
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