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Post by Sirenna on Nov 2, 2006 15:26:19 GMT -5
Even though I missed this week's episdode, I'm enjoying reading everyone's posts. (I went to the movies instead and saw The desperate - not bad) I plan to tape Saturdays.
That webguy writer, posted by Techguy, seems pretty astute and humourous too!
I'm all for plying the bad guy with alchohol in order to make him more voluble, in fact I think an airplane makes for a very useful interrogation room. The perp can't escape. There's really nothing else to do but talk
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cifan
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 101
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Post by cifan on Nov 2, 2006 16:50:12 GMT -5
After viewing this episode for a second time last night, I am definitely seeing Goren's "descent" if you will. His physical appearance in my opinion is a change in Goren, not Mr. D'onofrio. It's been subtle, but gradually worse in each G/E episode so far this season, beginning with Eames' kidnapping. Just the fact that these discussions are taking place is a tell tale sign that something is amiss. Did anyone notice how Goren kept doing this scrunching up thing with his mouth? I didn't notice it until I re-watched it, but he must have done it 3 or 4 times. I had seen him do it on occasion in other episodes, but this was excessive! I really believe Goren is heading for a breakdown, especially after reading the episode description for "The War at Home", but I have confidence in the writers/producers to not turn it into a circus. I could be completely off and seeing things for what they are not.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Nov 2, 2006 16:54:16 GMT -5
I think I'm the only one looking the mussed, unprofessional look. He doesn't look so stuffy. Logan also has a more mussed look, so I don't think it's just Goren. Both men had mismatching pants on! (Goren - Blind Spot , Logan - Tru Love.) And God, please, no breakdown.
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Post by NicoleMarie on Nov 2, 2006 17:05:01 GMT -5
I have Warren Leight's comment "Goren won't be the smartest guy in the room anymore" spinning in my head. And that's sad too because Goren being the smartest guy in the room was part of the allure and mystique of Goren for me. I certainly could not digest him being "dumbed down". The feud between Ross and Goren over how the interrrogation should go did puzzle me. Ross bluntly remind him to cover all bases and basically just do his job! Since when Goren needs to be told to do his job? In previous seasons he was always one step ahead than anyone else or we saw that something was brewing in his head. Now Goren and by extension Eames are basically following orders. Ross seems to be the one who's one step ahead and he just leads G/E by the hand: go there; check this; do that! Storywise it makes a more linear plot; yet it's offsetted by more intertwined relationships between the characters. These are some of the many reasons I have such an intense dislike of Ross. By trying to be top dog, all he's doing is getting in the way and stifling them. He also has a very smarmy, condenscending way of talking down to them. The same for Logan. It's ironic because as much as I dislike Logan, I'm actually riled by the way Ross treats him. I'll always go to bat for Goren and Eames ( ) but this dude is making me go to bat for Logan, too. I bet CI planned it this way! Sympathy gets you every time!
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Leticia
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 74
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Post by Leticia on Nov 2, 2006 20:20:40 GMT -5
A good episode. I was a bit surprised how (tastelessly?) fast this followed on the heels of the JonBenet resurgence, but I am so beyond glad that they didn’t make the mother the killer. I was filled with fear that she would be. Liza Minnelli was great. Great moments of conflict with Ross. I laughed at the “date” scene, then started to feel truly sympathetic to Beth. A really slimy and self-centred villain, always satisfying when they get caught. Solid all through.
Cassie, I didn’t get the impression Eames endorsed the emotional female argument. I think she was letting us know quite how disastrously the investigation went. Not just bad, Textbook bad.
Goren and AA- I think he just knew the steps. It is something he has probably come into contact with a lot in his job (Narcotics, as well as police work on general) and his life (alcoholic father- he may well have tried to right his life at some point). Goren is also someone who absorbs details and remembers easily. Why is this odder than him remembering some random article from Smithsonian magazine? Eames too has had experience with alcoholics (her aunt and job) and probably saw a chance to exploit the process and elicit honesty.
I find myself wondering if L&O is being sponsored by Coca-Cola. There was the very prominent can on the desk last week when the Gardener/Boyfriend was interviewed, and this week an oddly loud opening sound as Ross prepares to chug one down. It's distracting. What gives?
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cifan
Silver Shield Investigator
Posts: 101
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Post by cifan on Nov 2, 2006 20:46:26 GMT -5
I find myself wondering if L&O is being endorsed by Coca-Cola. There was the very prominent can on the desk last week when the Gardener/Boyfriend was interviewed, and this week an oddly loud opening sound as Ross prepares to chug one down. It's distracting. What gives? I noticed this too in "Cruise to Nowhere" when Goren brings Joey the veal parmesan in his cell. He hands Joey a can of coke and has a diet coke for himself. I also remember Goren getting a coke out of the machine. I can't say that it is distracting to me, but enough to make me notice
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Post by mikeyrocks on Nov 2, 2006 22:47:05 GMT -5
Just to clarify something I said earlier in regards to being somewhat suprised by the argument between Captain Ross and Goren.
Today at 1:37 p.m Untitled Wrote: .
Let me rephrase what I said previously Untitled - I'll be more specific - I meant that I was SUPRISED that Ross and Goren let it get so heated - Out in the open in front of Eames and basically the whole office. That doesn't seem like either of their styles. I suppose seeing as the NYPD dropped the case the first time around - Everyone was under more pressure to solve it fast.
Ross seems to give Goren a much harder time than the other detectives. It just makes me wonder why?
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elizabethbay
Detective
Oh god, I've swallowed the tie clip...
Posts: 242
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Post by elizabethbay on Nov 3, 2006 3:50:08 GMT -5
Only a couple of months ago, Dick Wolf told USA Today that he wouldn't do 'product placement' on L&O shows - they weren't suited to it. Don't know if he's changed his mind about product plugs (or NBC has changed it for him), but the money generated by these 'product integrations' certainly is a boon for the expensive-to-produce TV dramas. For myself, I'm not averse to seeing the Coke logo on LOCI if it keeps the L&O production coffers topped up. Could be just inevitable that C-C is seen a lot on LOCI: the stuff is as pervasive as air in our culture. Anyhow, interesting article on the trend in general. Make up your own mind. www.usatoday.com/life/television/news/2006-09-19-product-integration_x.htm
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Post by sobergal95 on Nov 3, 2006 3:59:11 GMT -5
Elizabethbay: Ive now rewatched this episode for the third time and my dog still barks at the doorbell each and every time. We inherited her as a "free to a good home" stray and not only did she apparently used to have a doorbell, but I discovered Christmas morning she apparently used to have slippers. About 10 minutes after opening my new slippers, Sandy discovered them on my feet, and well, now they are hers. I don't really mind, but she doesnt share and I really wanted slippers... guess Ill have to stick with socks. We also used to have adog who just loved the moose in the opening scene of "Northern Exposure" and she would go to the TV and start crying as soon as she heard the music to the theme. And yes 95 was the year I "put the plug in the jug". I dig that Cragen and Briscoe were both in recovery and I've also wondered if maybe Deakins might have been too.... He made a comment about "if you're thinking about hitting the meetings, they wont tell you anything... its called alcoholics anonymous for a reason"; then Goren says they're going to the coffee shops near the meetings. Also another episode Deakins points out they usually don't make 12-Step calls alone (I think this is "Grow" from season 5).
I agree with janet that the little girl's costume was "skanky" and cant help but wonder how many perverts out their actually enjoyed those little video flashbacks. The kid talking about the girl getting 30 sesame logs at the candy swap reminded me of Easter at my house: my sisters hated the black jelly beans so they would swap me for them... an hour or so later my basket held nothing but the black jelly beans. But i didnt like them THAT much... LOL
Someone was creeped out by Liza's 3 inch thick makeup: years ago when I was in college I worked at a drugstore near the fancy hotels downtown and we sold ALOT of cosmetics to her when she was in town for a show. I also sold Marlboro cigarettes and hair mousse (not sure what brand) to Peter Frampton that summer. That would be the extent of my brushes with celebrities (unless I count seeing one of our local news guys outside the Harlem Globetrotter game in March).
I am thinking the scenes by the elevator arguing about "Sesame Logs" and later with the Coke can kind of go back to Ross's "your partner overthinks things" comment in "Blind Spot". I think the loudly opening the can was deliberately rude and Ross's way of cutting Goren off because he was talking about Beth's affect etc. Then he tells him to go back to her. I like and respect him, but he definitely likes to call the shots and tell them what the next move should be. He also did that with Wheeler and Logan in "Maltese Cross". We've had 4 Goren/Eames episodes and only 2 Logan/Wheeler so its kinda hard to tell. But what I definitely like about him is that while he may disagree with an approach he does listen to his detectives point of view and gives them some room to go with it. He seems to care more about "if" the suspect is guitly than the "why" he or she did it.
I actually thought Goren looked better in this episode than "Bedfellows". I think VDO is definitely heavier and visually seems to be having trouble to haul those extra pounds around but he looked more professional than in the last couple episodes. Maybe not the hair, but kept the tie on at least. I thought he seemed more on top of it than the last couple and the last season for that matter.
I'm really enjoying this season and this board, thanks for the warm welcome all. Look forward to chatting about the next episode.
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Post by Techguy on Nov 3, 2006 4:17:28 GMT -5
The eagle eyes on this board continue to amaze me. Dashiell Eaves, the waiter at the Bar Mitzvah in "Crazy," is indeed the same actor who plays Jamie Royce in "Masquerade."
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elizabethbay
Detective
Oh god, I've swallowed the tie clip...
Posts: 242
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Post by elizabethbay on Nov 3, 2006 5:26:54 GMT -5
SG95, I would say you could put even money on Deakins being in recovery. There always seems to be one front-of-house character in the L&O shows that's a recovering alcoholic: first Cragen on the mothership, then Briscoe; then Cragen on SVU. No women as yet, except for behind the scenes, I don't think, unless I've missed a DA's office attorney.
OT: Does anybody smoke at all in the L&O multiverse? It's been so long now that the only person I can recall with a fag in their hand is Goren, and that's for play-show (Badge) and faux camaraderie (Faithful). Contemporary conditions and complaints like diabetes, dyslexia, depression, bi-polar disorder, cartilege-damaged knees- think of the whole pandora's box - just seem to have passed this lot by. A few of them wear glasses, and that's it. I guess if you're in line to be shot in an alleyway, who needs more probs, eh?
Back on track: I'm glad that so many people seem to like this episode, or see it as a step up from Bedfellows. I have just seen a clip plus screen caps, so I'm tallying opinions for a rough idea of where this is all going. The warm reception on this board and in the press for Minnelli's performance surprised me . It shouldn't have: Past her rotten taste in men, she is a better actress than her mother was, and as commanding a singer. On ya, Liza!
PS SG95: At least your doggy has manageable and socially acceptable addictions. I remember the big New York Times piece about a Scottish terrier who had a formed an unseemly, unbridled and unrelentingly possessive passion for its owner's vacuum cleaner.
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effie
Detective
off chasing plot bunnies...
Posts: 264
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Post by effie on Nov 3, 2006 9:44:01 GMT -5
Just to throw something into the Deakins/Recovery conversation. One of his last lines was to tell Carver that he'd sent him an UNOPENED bottle of scotch he found in his desk ...
just something to think about.
effie
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elizabethbay
Detective
Oh god, I've swallowed the tie clip...
Posts: 242
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Post by elizabethbay on Nov 3, 2006 9:56:36 GMT -5
Hey, nice one Effie. Had forgotten that.
In that case, we seem to be short one recovering alcoholic in the multiverse, with Deakins gone. Soooo... I throw this not-the-news flash into the ring just to send a fluttering through the dovecotes: There is some wild and crazy and disturbingly intelligent speculation going on around the fan haunts that Goren is now self-medicating - this notion predicated on his sluggish, disconnected behaviour and an apparent slurring of the name 'Beth' in Masquerade. A D'Onofrio slip that went uncorrected during the shoot, OR a hint of something else to be revealed? Not a clue here, but if we find him down the bottom of the sherry bottle, at least he knows the 12 Steps back up.
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Post by Patcat on Nov 3, 2006 10:21:53 GMT -5
I don't think we'd find Goren at the bottom of a sherry bottle--more like whiskey.
But the number of recovering alcoholics in the L&O world isn't surprising--cops have a notoriously high rate of alcoholism. It's actually fairly realistic.
Heavens, what we pour on our poor Bobby--sick mother, partner in peril, guns pulled on him, psycho Nicole, and now alcoholism. Next thing you know, we'll have him shooting heroin. (g)
Patcat
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mimi
Detective
Posts: 231
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Post by mimi on Nov 3, 2006 10:42:36 GMT -5
Goren not being the smartest guy in the room doesn't pose a problem for me. On the contrary, I thought Goren was pumping too much oxygen in MCS. A good battle of the wits can lead to a stimulating exchange between the characters, create a more balanced team of characters, and even jump start Goren, who seems to be lagging intellectually this season. He's certainly not on top of his game.
The problem I have with this is that in order to make Goren less prominent they confront him this load of personal struggles that is taking a toll on how he does his job, why does Goren have to contemplate depression now? Does Goren mental destiny inevitably has to head to the maze of insanity?
Yes, but unlike you I think that Ross' annoyance was entirely justified. Not only Goren didn't maximize his time with Fife on the plane to get a good profile, he was now asking Ross a question a detective of his calibre shouldn't have had to ask. How to conduct an interrogation is a basic procedural act and Goren is not the type of character to bend over backwards on the procedural stuff. He goes for it when he senses something is not right, and Fife was the epitome of "not in his right mind". Yet, this fact completely had gone over Goren's head who looked like he didn't have clue of what was going on.
Goren's attitude, or lack thereof, is the problem here. Ross is taking so much space now, because the space is there for the taking.
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