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Post by NicoleMarie on Jan 23, 2005 22:10:01 GMT -5
Oh, I also wanted to touch on the SVU talk! But I'll save that for that thread I sawin here...Now where'd it go? hehehe And someone mentioned the naughty misleading commercials...Yes, I'm learning to ignore them because I was tricked by a few of them too!
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Post by Marie on Jan 24, 2005 4:25:31 GMT -5
Wow, Marie, great post. So much to think about. The jazz ref is a particularly interesting analogy. Are you a musician? Thanks! Glad to hear you and others enjoyed it; makes up for losing everything the first time I posted in this thread! (I went over the character limit and lost it all after hitting the back button to edit; laugh!) I'm not a musician, no. I'm a Freelance artist (Design, Illustration, along with Fine Arts - oils, watercolors etc.) Ergo, I hang out with fellow Bohemian types; people who either play music or love it as much as I do; I'm a Jazz fan! Although ironically my fav CD is currently "American Idiot" by Green Day; chuckle. Basically, I was struck by the similarity between hearing a cool Jazz riff and watching how D'Onofrio is "walking" Det. Goren this season - as they both share an element of the improvisational without ever straying so far off the beat, you lose the whole melody. It appears like he's in danger of plunging over, but in truth, he's just traversing a path with a "view" of the edge. He's got a ways to go, our Det. Goren, before he'd ever be at risk of falling off it. And I think the contrast between this season and the last one, is partly to blame or account for the illusion of his being closer to a precipice, than he actually is. I agree with Velocity's observation that we're also no dount dealing with a little burn out, here. D'Onofrio certainly likes to burn his candle at both ends, eh? Chuckle; maybe the writers decided to lift his work load a little by not having so many back-to-back Goren centric episodes? Coupled with a little burn out of their own? But I too, get impatient! For I don't actually watch LOCI for the detective stories, truth be told, as much as for the joy of watching Goren trying to solve them - while learning more about him in the process. I'd go back to watching the original Law & Order, if all I wanted was a crime to solve; chuckle! Consequently, I keep having to remind myself that the best mysteries in life are the ones you never completely solve; smile. As the satisfaction of having done so is too short lived. And where's the fun in that?! LOL! Indeed, I remember a cast interview off a LOCI dvd; D'Onofrio also expressed his desire to never see Goren's character completely resolved. (see LOCI "Beginings") - here's a link to the clip in case you've never seen it: www.thereelvincentdonofrio.com/clips/clipsfilms/clipsgalleryfilms.html(Although I understand and appreciate why others feel differently, and thus prefer to see less "spelunkling" of the Goren batcave; chuckle!) But at the defence of the writers, aside from "Semi-Detached, "Want" and to a lesser degree "Magnificat" and "Great Barrier", they've continued to stick to their regular formula. So that's just 4 ep's out of 11 thus far. Moreover, and speaking for myself here, for the want of showing us character aspects such as vulnerability, I know I'd grow to find Goren a bit too arrogant, even smug, in his methods of detection. A case of "oh jeesh, here we go again - Mr. uber smarty-boots; quickest brain in the room and knows it etc". And when you're as sharp as a bag of razors, you'd think he'd at least occationally cut himself, no? Indeed, isn't that why "A Person of Interest" packed such a poignant punch? And continues to resonate with fans? Whereas I can barely remember "Eosphorous". Imo, when Balcer and D'Onofrio voiced their disinterest in doing "soap opera" based television, I feel they were talking about shows like NYPD Blues and L&O SVU (as that does venture into the personal; showing us where characters live, their family life etc.) And we've no idea what Goren's apartment looks like. Nor have we ever seen him on a date, or for that matter his mom - like Mrs. Columbo, they fully intend to keep her OFF screen, too. So if LOCI feels like it's getting a little soap opera-ish, maybe that owes more to fan speculation online about Goren's personal life, as opposed to anything they've actually put onscreen. Which would understandably suck if you're looking to chat about just the crimes, themselves. That said, they have given us more info in season 4. Likely a by-product in part, of ever increasing fan interest in Goren's pathology thanks to how well D'Onofrio walks that bass line; which the writers have subsequently taken note of..? For remember: low ratings = cancellation. Then nobody's happy! Mind you, I think I'd grumble a bit too, if they took him in a direction I wasn't interested in seeing. Then I'd take out my own razors and slice-up the offending episodes with ruthless abandon; chuckle! Hopefully they'll swing it back to the 50 yard line wherein I still get what I want, but others do too. A fair compromise, pleasing everyone. Writers, cast, and fans.
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Post by Vance on Jan 24, 2005 13:13:54 GMT -5
Balcer and the writing staff as well as D'Onofrio have a tricky line to walk, and i think they do it well. many fans disliked the very episodes you enjoyed most this season, and they disliked them for substantially the same reasons you liked them!! the fans seem to fall into two general camps -- those who want to see more of Goren's own pathologies and how they influence his ability to identify with the criminals and those who prefer a lid on Goren's psyche. that's a tall order to fill! maybe they don't always get the balance right, but the writers and actors on this show are so skilled and so dedicated to Goren's journey as well as great storytelling that it's difficult to fault them.
and, while all shows have to be concerned about ratings, that is far less a concern for CI than other series. LOCI has already been renewed through the end of next season (and was even before this season began) and has already been sold into syndication for some record breaking sum.
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Post by Marie on Jan 25, 2005 2:51:08 GMT -5
...many fans disliked the very episodes you enjoyed most this season, and they disliked them for substantially the same reasons you liked them!! the fans seem to fall into two general camps -- those who want to see more of Goren's own pathologies and how they influence his ability to identify with the criminals and those who prefer a lid on Goren's psyche. that's a tall order to fill!... and, while all shows have to be concerned about ratings, that is far less a concern for CI than other series. LOCI has already been renewed through the end of next season (and was even before this season began) and has already been sold into syndication for some record breaking sum. Ya know, this reminds me of what happened in seasons 5 & 6 of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" when Joss Whedon decided to progress Spike's character arc. Fans content with the "monster of week" format weren't too happy. Complaining it was pulling the show "off track" and taking too much screen time away from the other characters. In turn, Spike fans were thrilled! Myself included. And it created a split amongst the fans, who fell into 2 distinct camps - just like here. Chuckle! However unlike Buffy - which indeed turned into a full-blown soap opera in the end, I still see this Goren stuff as a "side tributary" and nothing more. They'll explore it for it a bit, and then swing back etc. Moreover, I think it's a beneficial tributary; as it also gives Eames "more" to react to now. And in the weeks to come, we might see bits of dialogue her character would not have been handed, otherwise. For when you think about, she's usually limited to making expository statements with the occational wry observation tossed in for good measure. Whereas Goren gets the juicer bits, especially that "summary opus" he tends to deliver at the end; the final crushing blow, so to speak. As for ratings, I'm aware of the re-broadcast deal recently signed between NBC and BRAVO! (special Cable Channel in Canada & US) and I think the sum per episode is 1.3 million dollars. I didn't know however that LOCI had already been renewed for season 5. GOOD! Even so, it's called show business for a reason. It's about MONEY and making it; chuckle. And Dick Wolf doesn't have the last word. That's a guy in an office with his eye on the bottom line. So I take nothing for granted! "The Television Industry is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs." - Hunter S. Thompson.
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MelTex
Detective
"I want a Jonny 7 all-in-one gun..."
Posts: 336
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Post by MelTex on Jan 25, 2005 12:35:50 GMT -5
Sorry it took so long to get back to this thread.
"Dark Shadows", ya know, I think I've heard of that show! Actually someone who knows I like vampire series and fantasy, told me I should check out "Dark Shadows" Hmmm..
I haven't seen any commercials for "COLLECTIVE" yet, but since it is to come out this sunday, I'll be looking for the promos probably tonight or tomorrow. I don't catch NBC except on Tues nights and Sunday nights, so they'll probably run the promos then. But, I'll try to keep my hopes down...<grrrr> stinkin' commercials!
Hmmm...Bobby in a black sweater? *grin* Interesting!
Great quote by Thompson Marie! Very true as well. In TV, aside from letting the actors ply their trade, the creed is greed for the TV exects!
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Post by Patcat on Jan 25, 2005 14:02:02 GMT -5
Ah, yes, DARK SHADOWS. DS was a horror soap opera that flourished in the late 1960s, early 1970s, and was a cult hit, especially with teenagers and college students. It started (on the ABC network in the US, I think) as a Gothic soap opera (damsel in distress, heroine locked in tower, dark, brooding heroes), but was on the edge of cancellation when it introduced the character of Barnabas Collins, a tormented, 100 year old vampire (sort of like Angel but played by an older Shakespearean actor named Jonathan Frid). Frid was an unlikely idol, but the character took hold with audiences, and the series became a hit.
I liked it when I was a kid. I'd run home from junior high to catch it. But the truth is, it was pretty horrible. I caught some episodes when the series was rerun on the Sci Fi channel, and the sets were flimsy, the direction awful, the lines dreadful, and the acting wooden. To be fair, I gather the show's budget was pennies and the actors often were seeing their lines for the first time just before they went on camera. It was like seeing someone you had an affair with when you were drunk and couldn't quite remember what happened.
I think some seasons are on DVD.
And my apologies if this should be under other TV series.
Patcat
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Post by Patcat on Jan 25, 2005 14:03:53 GMT -5
Marie--I like your jazz analogy--I'm not a musician, but I like jazz, and often thought that D'Onofrio acted in the way a great jazz musician works.
By the way, D'Onofrio is apparently a big fan of the blues and plays some guitar.
Patcat
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Post by Vance on Jan 25, 2005 16:20:08 GMT -5
I still see this Goren stuff as a "side tributary" and nothing more. CI is far from soapy, yet those who dislike the Goren-psyche stuff apparently don't see it as a "side tributary" but as something that detracts from the kind of storytelling they enjoy. my own preference is for the episodes that reveal more about Goren and his psychic kinks/pathologies. my point is simply that it has created a divide in the fan base, and i think Balcer has handled it well. it's a tricky line to walk.
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Post by Techguy on Jan 25, 2005 16:33:05 GMT -5
I don't mind the side tributaries into Det. Goren's psyche if they are used in moderation to provide *hints* at what might be behind his behavior in a particular situation. What I don't like is if negotiating the tributaries gets viewers so far off the track of storytelling so as to confuse rather than enlighten. Over use of Goren's background details tend to provide more heat than light. This type of journey up river tends to leave me, the viewer, with more questions than CI can provide satisfactory answers, i.e., without a paddle.
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Post by Vance on Jan 25, 2005 16:35:17 GMT -5
For remember: low ratings = cancellation. Then nobody's happy! ... it's called show business for a reason. It's about MONEY and making it; chuckle. And Dick Wolf doesn't have the last word. That's a guy in an office with his eye on the bottom line. So I take nothing for granted! yes, and the money in television is made when a series is sold into syndication. in order to get to syndication, a series needs roughly 100 episodes which requires five seasons on the air. CI was renewed through the end of its fifth season last year and has sold into syndication for $1.92 million/episode (according to Variety). the bottom line has been satisfied even before CI's initial broadcast run is over. that's rare. and it does give the CI creative team more freedom to explore without the threat of cancellation due to low ratings prior to reaching a point where the series can be syndicated (and thereby become profitable).
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Post by missymagoshi on Jan 25, 2005 18:35:44 GMT -5
Yes, TechGuy, you are so right. Purely, logistically, there just isn't enough time on the show to cover everything I think the writers want to do. Which leaves us the fans wondering and trying to fill in the blanks.
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Post by Marie on Jan 25, 2005 20:39:32 GMT -5
So D'Onofrio likes the Blues, eh? Plays some guitar as well? Ah; makes even more sense now, than he'd approach the character as something fluid he can "pull off the page" - ref: cast interview on the DVD etc. He's got genuine artistic sensibilities.
I can relate. For repeating yourself day in, day out, gets old really quick. And you start to feel stiffled. I worked for several years in Film Animation; hand-inking cels. You'd get handed hundreds of cels - all looking pretty much the same. End of the week, if you never saw another cat about to jump onto a chair, it would be too soon! LOL!
Moreover, the only time you get a chance to do something new as an artist, is when you finish one job and move onto the next. Which is what D'Onofrio has been accustomed to doing for years. Now that he's playing the same character - 4 seasons and counting, I can well appreciate why he'd want to "walk Goren around a bit. I know I would! Otherwise you'd go nuts from sheer boredom!
That said, I continue to appreciate the views expressed by fans who'd prefer to see less of Goren's batcave; smile. It's a valid point of view. The direction has changed, and some fans liked it the way it was. And consequently miss the "old" LOCI.
For what it's worth, I truly believe that this is just a temporary thing. For believing that D'Onofrio would also get bored with spelunking Goren's batcave - if that's all he got to eat on his plate. So I'm anticipating yet more changes to come. As the nature of a walking bass line is that it's always "moving". Which is why change is good; albeit inconsistantly so. You might like the song they're playing, or wish they'd repeat the one you'd liked better, or find the next melody is the best one yet! And I don't mind the suspense of that. Television is too predictable, as it is.
As for ratings - "Angel the series" reference now, chuckle, at the end of season 4, it was dropped from FOX Universal. The WB Network then picked it up for season 5. But despite earning it's highest ratings ever and being in syndication on the Space Channel in Canada and other markets, in the spring of 2004 mid-season 5, the WB Network axed it. Because at the end of the day, even when a show makes money, the prospect of making even MORE with another series, is simply too irresistable to the corporate suits; who by the way, are evil. It's about making money but it's compounded by GREED.
Again; I take nothing for granted! Chuckle!
So when fans respond positively to seeing more of Goren's pathology, and D'Onofrio himself stays onboard because he's allowed to "move his character around", and the writers are mindful of both while not wanting to get bored themselves, and all anyone can do is their best in the hopes it'll be enough... seems there's multiple factors involved in determining what we're likely to see from week to week. A LOT of people to please indeed!
All things said, I think Balcer's doing a great job. I mean, it's not like I could write a show this good, a few duds aside. I'm amazed given everything that could go wrong, it's a brilliant as it.
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Post by Vance on Jan 25, 2005 21:19:48 GMT -5
All things said, I think Balcer's doing a great job. I mean, it's not like I could write a show this good, a few duds aside. I'm amazed given everything that could go wrong, it's a brilliant as it. So true! The only surprising thing about television as a whole is that it ALL isn't completely unwatchable. The production demands for everyone involved are grueling, and the need to please networks, studios, actors, writers, audiences and advertisers is a heavy load.
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Post by Vance on Jan 25, 2005 21:53:56 GMT -5
As for ratings - "Angel the series" reference now, chuckle, at the end of season 4, it was dropped from FOX Universal. The WB Network then picked it up for season 5. But despite earning it's highest ratings ever and being in syndication on the Space Channel in Canada and other markets, in the spring of 2004 mid-season 5, the WB Network axed it. Because at the end of the day, even when a show makes money, the prospect of making even MORE with another series, is simply too irresistable to the corporate suits; who by the way, are evil. It's about making money but it's compounded by GREED. no argument here about greed being a motivating factor in television. trust me, as someone on the creative side of this industry, i've had my share of run-ins with greedy studios and networks... that said, greed doesn't entirely explain the cancellation of ANGEL, and doesn't explain the different ways in which CI and ANGEL were treated by their networks. to understand the differenct impact of ratings on CI & ANGEL, it's necessary to distinguish between the NETWORK'S financial interest and the STUDIO/PRODUCTION CO.'s financial interest. Twentieth Century Fox (the studio/production co.) owned ANGEL. they were the ones who stood to gain financially from off-network syndication. they were the ones who produced the show at a deficit during its initial network run. initially twentieth century fox distributed Angel through the Fox Network, which is a distribution outlet (and a distinct, though related, corporate entity). that network dropped the series, and it was picked up by the WB. the WB never had any ownership in ANGEL the series, as it remained a 20th Cent. Fox production. the WB's only ability to profit from the series was through advertising revenue. the WB decided that the amount of money they were paying for the right to air the show (which came with a built in audience that fit the demographic the WB was courting) was more than they were earning off of its own sale of advertising time during the show. the ratings may have been the highest they'd ever been, but they weren't high enough to push advertising costs up to a point where the WB could cover the huge amount of money it was shelling out to air the series. the WB had nothing to gain by ANGEL making it into syndication. they needed much higher ratings. in contrast, CI is both produced and aired by NBC Universal, which is a "vertically integrated" (as they say) company. as a result, both the production and distribution sides of the show have identical financial interests concerning whether or not the show makes it through five seasons and becomes available for off-network syndication (which is where the $$$ is). NBC, the network, makes money by selling airtime during the show, sure. and the ad revenue is based on ratings. but what NBC, the production studio, can make on the series through syndication is much, much, much greater than that. this is why the series was renewed two years in advance. because, at this point, ratings are a very small consideration in CI's ability to turn a profit (which, by the way, it hasn't yet done. it is still produced at a deficit, and won't earn that money back for NBC until the syndication deal goes into effect).
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Post by Marie on Jan 25, 2005 21:57:30 GMT -5
So true! The only surprising thing about television as a whole is that it ALL isn't completely unwatchable. The production demands for everyone involved are grueling, and the need to please networks, studios, actors, writers, audiences and advertisers is a heavy load. Absolutely! And in all fairness to everyone here with a complaint to voice, ironically, half the fun of watching is often B***hing about it afterwards, eh? Smile. It would get stale pretty fast if all we did was agree with everything. Where's the fun in that?? LOL! Side note: some people join Forums to find like-minded fans. As they "hate being contradicted" ahem. Others are "up for it" so to speak, and like to trade a few jabs. I like to do both. Without malice of intent, of course. Any balloons I toss are filled with water - not bricks. I haven't "splooshed!" anyone yet, but I'm looking forward to it; mischievious grin. Oh, hang on, you just posted again Vance.... heh, heh
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