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Post by romulanavatra3 on Jan 26, 2005 20:51:53 GMT -5
hey all just wondering i know ivncent has said he is leaving at the end of his contract on more than one ocassion( but that in itself is open to debate because he has given somewhat different response to that question on more than one occsion as well). but where has hem teioned that he would be leaving after season 6, just wondering. personally in reagrds to this with all the rumors flottting around and the fact that most acotrs are human and do ociasinaly change their minds it is best jsut to wait and seee what happens( if anything happens that is). the other thing is that dont foreget some epsidoes in each season will feel out of place partoiculary if they were shot ealier than the rest with say during the privious seasons batch so they would be more likely to take on some of the chracteristics of the previous season. forinstacne in season 3 there were some epsidoes that had a very season 2 feel to them and them same in season one. just my three cents worth. cath you all later reagrds rom.
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Post by Patcat on Jan 26, 2005 22:41:25 GMT -5
Vance;
I think you're right that both Balcer and Wolf have a lot to say about Goren as a character. Wolf has shown no reluctance to drop actors who don't fit into his idea of the LAW AND ORDER premise, and he's also had a lot of nice things to say about D'Onofrio (although he was reportedly none too pleased that D'Onofrio was working on the Welles short film while filming LOCI this year). I think that LOCI has benefitted from the combined efforts of Wolf, Balcer, and D'Onofrio, and that their shared views of the character merged. And I suspect that of the three, Balcer is the one who has had the greatest influence.
Patcat
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Post by missymagoshi on Jan 27, 2005 1:36:22 GMT -5
Go Vance for your spirited post. From what I understand, television is a writer's medium. Unlike film, where directors reign king, in TV from everything I've read, it is the showrunner. I like to believe Balcer is the firm hand guiding this ship and that not even the writers on his staff, no matter how much he likes their work or respects their opinions, can sway him into changing HIS ideas about HIS show.
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Post by Marie on Jan 27, 2005 9:15:55 GMT -5
as much as i respect your opinon, i must dispute this expression of it. (and, sure, it feels good.) i don't think d'onofrio has ever been free to do whatever the f@%k he likes with the character.... the executive producer (rene balcer) is the showrunner.... and its HIS (probably in consultation with d'onofrio) incarnation of Goren that gets on the air. i'd imagine tha dick wolf and rene balcer are very pleased with what d'onofrio's done.... but i find it impossible to believe that they've allowed him to do whatever the f**k he wants with a character that they created... Chuckle; exception noted! Perhaps I was too distracted enjoying myself to avoid inadvertantly missrepresenting my thoughts on the matter. For your response seems to indicate that I have! I don't think D'Onofrio has the final word on Goren. I don't think Rene Balcer & Dick Wolf have totally surrendered their creation to him and that's why we're seeing what we're seeing season 4. I do believe they allow him a "measure" of creative imput, however. And to the extent it's there onscreen, feel it's made the show what it is - as the greater appeal of LOCI (for me any rate) lies with D'Onofrio's "interpretation" of Det. Goren as opposed to how he's been written on the page. Thus reasoning that were you to subtract his imput or reduce it, the series would be the lesser for it, imo. You'd get a different show, in other words. I while really like how the character is written - even more so, I love how he's played. Who's ultimately responsible for that? You'd have to sit down with D'Onofrio, Balcer and Wolf and ask them specifically about all the stuff we see - ie: whose idea was this? Or that? How much of a scene owed to Vincent's imput, or your direction, or a writer's etc" to know anything for sure - at least in terms of "how" something arrived onscreen. The only absolute here is that the producers have the FINAL say. And what they agree to keep (or toss out) is unknown to us. For we're not on the set and thus privy to those conservations (darn it, chuckle! That would be cool!) So at the end of the day, it's anyone's guess! 20% D'Onofrio? 60% ..? etc. And if it turns out I'm enjoying the show as much I am thanks to D'Onofrio making suggestions they also like and thus keep, well, I want that to continue! That's what I meant when I wrote "he can do whatever the fu*k he likes" as far as I'm concerned. But I guess it would have been better to say "TRY" whatever he likes. As whether or not they always use an idea is a moot point; I just want him to have the freedom to give it go! Carpe Diem! Play the precentages! For believing that those experiments more often than not, are successful ones. And for the want of being told otherwise by Balcer and Wolf, are indeed what make show for me. If I hear otherwise, some tv interview etc, I'll immediately change my tune; smile. I dare say what you took exception to, is a case of semantics giving rise to the impression that I wasn't giving the writers & producers enough credit for their own series - leading you perhaps to conclude that it owed to a measure of ignorance on MY part as to exactly "what" their roles are? Hense the need to "educate" me; smile. (Marie's now moves her Queen into position....) For the record, so ya know where I'm coming from: I'm a freelance artist who spent several years working in Animation up in Vancouver; film & television. I didn't write storyboards. I didn't design the characters or draw the actual animation. I had no say whatsoever regarding concept or content. I was there as a "hired gun" so to speak, like the other bees in the studio, working "by the piece" - like getting paid for each apple you've picked. (side note: credits include things like Renhoek & Stimpy and two animated shorts - Gary Larson's "Tales From the Farside I and II". So I'm well aware of what writers, directors and producers do. I've certainly spent enough time around them; chuckle!) And I only got to add my creative imput when the animation director (and producer) allowed me the freedom to "interpret a line". Ie: the animator draws the character onto a piece of paper with a pencil. A plain thin line, no variation, no thick or thins. My job was to lay a clear plastic cel on top of that, and trace over those lines with a brush dipped in black ink; no easy feat! And unless they told me from the start that I had to adhere to a pre-conceived vision of what the director wanted - no exceptions etc, I'd walk into the animation corral (a place where even the angels feared to tread; wry smile) and show & tell them how "I'd" like the ink lines to look for this character. It was my great fortune to work with "flexible" directors and producers. And as a result I got to walk my own "bass line" so to speak, more often than not - because they liked my ideas and were open to them. Which was immensely rewarding; a true joy, as I got to express myself. Making up for the long, hard grueling 16 hour days trying to meet a killer deadline while the production manager ran around blowing smoke up everyone's ass. I'll be the first to own that I'm guilty of projecting that experience onto what I believe D'Onofrio is trying to do. For I see parallels or similaries in what we do as fellow artists; ergo, making me empathize with him as an actor - and thus more quick to champion his cause or view of things, as a result. For feeling that I too, know what it's like to look down at a page I didn't create and think to myself - "Nice! But I've got an idea that could make this ever better.." So right or wrong - Splooosh! Chuckle!!!
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MelTex
Detective
"I want a Jonny 7 all-in-one gun..."
Posts: 336
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Post by MelTex on Jan 27, 2005 11:21:49 GMT -5
Thats neato Marie that your job is in animation. I've always wondered what that was like, I didn't know some got paid by piece work for each frame you ink. I've read that Vince, even with his quiet and sometimes shy tone of voice--can get very vocal when shooting scenes about his ideas and thoughts for his and other's characters. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, some of the best lines are ad-libed and not in the script. Boy, do I wish I could be a fly on the wall on the CI set though...would that not be awesome!
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MelTex
Detective
"I want a Jonny 7 all-in-one gun..."
Posts: 336
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Post by MelTex on Jan 27, 2005 11:24:29 GMT -5
HOLY CRAP!!! ( I sound like Frank Berone from 'Everybody loves Raymond') My Ranking thingy just went UP!! WOOHOO!! Sorry, I'm easily entertained right now. I work in a museum...not much to do but watch dust gather. *smirk*
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Post by michael on Jan 27, 2005 16:10:40 GMT -5
Although I have been reading this board daily for several months, I am a new member and this is my first post. I started watching LOCI only about six months ago, but I have both the first and third season DVD sets. I feel the fourth season has not been as strong as the others, with the exception of a couple of episodes. (Of course I have seen nothing of Season 2.) As far as the argument concerning the "personal issues" of Goren, I enjoy the little tidbits of information that are given occasionally.
But this season has been "darker", both in subject matter and in Goren's mood and demeanor. When Goren smiled in response to Eames' question about "reading paranoia", I thought that it was the first time he had smiled in weeks. Looking back over previous episodes, I saw that I was wrong. But I sure miss the Goren who danced the "dance of the merry widow." I can't tell how much is due to the writing, and how much is due to the actor's emotional and physical state, but I look forward to seeing where Goren is going.
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Post by trisha on Jan 27, 2005 17:24:36 GMT -5
Welcome to the board, Michael You are in for a treat when the second season is finally released. It's more like the first season, in terms of stand alone episodes and light hearted moments. As far as how much is coming from D'Onofrio, I believe that 99% of what we see is coming off the pages that Rene either wrote or polished. The episodes have been themed to match what is going on in Goren's life, like the crimes and criminals are being used to explore him instead of the other way around. In that way, it makes sense for Goren to seem tired, morose, and detached, which is what we've been seeing. The confusing thing is that Rene said that we would be seeing a more engaged Goren this season. Engaged to what? His misery? I thought he was going to be highly involved in the crimes, but in a more upbeat way, like he loved doing his job, not that it was all he had. If Marie is not right, and this isn't just a lull in the season, I'm going to be very tempted to see what those housewives are up to ...
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Post by Marie on Jan 27, 2005 19:52:24 GMT -5
Welcome to the board, Michael You are in for a treat when the second season is finally released.. Yes indeed! Season 2 is great! And hello Michael! I'm a newbie too! Hmm... looking up the term engaged over at Webster's online, chuckle... Ok, here are the relevant definitions which might account for possibly what Balcer had in mind, as opposed to what you thought was going happen with Goren this season? 1. To attract and hold the attention of; engross 2. To draw into; involve 3. To enter or bring into conflict with 4. To enter into conflict or battle 5. To become meshed or interlocked That sorta fits in with what they've doing. The writers are engaging his character more openly now, challenging and confronting Goren with conflicts that give rise to displays of emotion - emotions they've previously kept hidden from viewers. I hadn't read Balcer wanted to engage Goren - the term I heard (forget where) was "vulnerability". To show that he's not impervious - incapable of being affected by the work he does. If so and either way, as long as it's "just" a facet of his pathology we're seeing, explored as a temporary thing, perhaps for reasoning he's not Superman after all and ergo, it only makes sense that he'd have these moments - so why not show them etc etc, I remain optimistic that he'll perk-up in due course; chuckle! LOL! I understand it's quite popular! But don't give up hope, Trisha! Could be it's all part of some bigger scheme to move Goren into a place where he's forced to address some of the issues creating all that broodiness in the first place. A series of seeds planted now, to account later on, for how and why he was suddenly able to drop the name of a new girl friend in an episode - for example? Because when push came to shove, he was forced to come to terms with the way he's been living his life, and in doing so, recognize that if he didn't make some personal changes, he's was going to end up alone and eating dinner over the kitchen sink, like his Dad. Given how devoted he is to his job, wouldn't it take something like that...? Otherwise, where's the modivation to change? If nothing's pushing at you to do it? And remember what he said to Nicole: "Don't count me out yet".
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Post by trisha on Jan 27, 2005 22:57:28 GMT -5
Thanks for the definitions on engaged, but I'm confused as to why you thought I needed them? And, yes, Rene's used the word "engaged" for certain. I remember it clearly because some of the more light hearted forums joked that he would be engaged to Nicole The way Rene phrased it made me think that Goren would be more involved, or engrossed with the crimes and criminals -- not obsessed with his job, and not so negatively focused. I thought he would be enjoying his work again, like he seemed to in the first and second season. Because it detracts from the mystery at hand, it's depressing, and last but not least, it borders on melodrama. What's next, a Stabler-esque breakdown? This show means too much to me to just watch it meander down this road without complaining, even if it is just a side road and the plan is to head back to the main road later -- which we don't know. If you're right about these being seeds planted for later harvest, then we are definitely headed into melodramatic territory. You have to reep what you sow, after all. I don't want to know if he has a girlfriend who wants to get married and have kids! I don't what to know what his mom looks like, or how far he has to go to see her. I don't even want to know if he has his own car! These things are better left to the imagination, that way the ones who want to think he's the kind of guy who will eventually settle down, get hitched, and have a bunch of kids can go ahead and think it without contradiction. Others who think he's destined to be alone forever can go on believing that, and again, last but not least, those who just don't want to know either way can go on not knowing. It's one thing to drop hints like they did in the first and second season, but what they are doing now is explicit. It's not like Jack and Claire's affair that you could easily miss if you weren't looking for it. This is unavoidable, and the fact that it's so character driven makes me worry not just about the future of the Goren character, but of the entire show. Me too, but I also know that those housewives are just a click away right now.
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Post by Marie on Jan 28, 2005 8:00:25 GMT -5
Thanks for the definitions on engaged, but I'm confused as to why you thought I needed them? You'd written this: "The confusing thing is that Rene said that we would be seeing a more engaged Goren this season. Engaged to what? His misery? I thought he was going to be highly involved in the crimes, but in a more upbeat way, like he loved doing his job, not that it was all he had."So I listed definitions for "engaged" to make sure it was a case of semantics. Ie: the reason you were confused is because he said one thing, you'd understood another. Not to suggest you didn't know the meaning of the word, yourself. LOL! Now there's a happy couple, eh? And if you heard him say "engaged", I trust you did! I only mentioned vulnerability for recalling seeing it quoted somewhere else etc. Ah! That's what I thought when I read your post! Broody Goren isn't what you'd expected to see in season 4 - not based how Balcer had used the term engaged, at any rate. Making me wonder just how open to interpretation that word is...? Hence heading off to Webster's to look it up etc. And now that I've seen all the various definitions for it, I can see why you took Balcer's meaning to infer something else! True. I guess after several years of Buffy The Vampire Slayer and Angel, I'm pretty jaded now. For having ridden that Wagnerian roller coaster; chuckle! It taught me patience - it's not over till it's over. That however, doesn't mean one can't vent! Chuckle! (I mean, that's half the fun of even BEING in a forum! LOL!) I totally agree. Ideally, I don't want that either. I guess the difference then (between where we stand) is that I'm not worried - yet. Chuckle!! They haven't crossed the line - not yet - for me. Doesn't mean they won't. So I could be grumbling like an angry bee spoiling for a fight, come March. But right now, I'm mellow. Or totally living in denial. Time will tell which one it is! LOL! You don't have to cross over to the dark side completely. There's always "MYSTERY!" on PBS...! Smile. Postscript: When I speculated that maybe they've got a hidden agenda in the works, hense all the seed planting etc, and proposed it might be - for example, that Goren's going to drop the name of a girl friend at some point, I'd envisioned the following scenario: A brief exchange of dialogue between Goren and Eames, arriving at the end of an episode... Eames: "You're leaving early..." she notes, a bit surprised; as he's usually the last one to leave. Goren: "Uh, there's a foreign film festival playing (wherever)". Eames: "Anyone I know..?" A question you could take either way owing to her tone of voice; ie: she's asking about the festival, or wondering if he's finally decided to be less of a loner, and if so, good! About time! Goren doesn't answer. He just smiles back ambiguously and heads off. Eames takes note of his silence, then her phone rings, she goes back to work. Roll credits. So again; a brief ambigious exchange. Open to numerous interpretation. And weeks go by before we ever hear another word about it. And when we do, it's also brief: Eames: "Didn't go home last night..?" Goren's at his desk, nose deep in books and folders (appears he's been at it all night.) "I thought there was another festival - " Goren: "Janet prefers stories with a happy ending." he provides, not looking up. Deakins enters the frame then, and the rest of the episode is about the case. At which point viewers can decide for themselves what it all means. Ex: Goren decided to get out more, ie: date. For coming to realize that it wasn't good to spend so much time inside other people's heads, and if he ever hopes to marry etc. We know he's met someone he at least likes - Janet - but we never see her. And that relationship might be working out for him; ie: his response simply meant "she doesn't care for depressing Bergman films" or some such. OR... it could mean she's concluded that their relationship is a lost cause (for whatever reason) and has called it quits. And so for picturing things "that way" inside my head, I've never imagined that the current direction of the show was leading us towards a Goren melt down or melodrama at the end of the season etc. That any seeds they might be planting, would be reaped in the form of subtext left open to viewer interpretation. Maybe there's no girl friend in the works. Maybe instead they're planning to get him involved with a big brother program. Again, only briefly refered to, and in vague terms. Or perhaps Det. Goren is finally going to take a vacation; chuckle! And everything they've shown us has been leading up to that miracle; he needs a break and knows it! Thus does Marie account for her optimism in the wake of broody Goren episodes. ;D
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MelTex
Detective
"I want a Jonny 7 all-in-one gun..."
Posts: 336
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Post by MelTex on Jan 28, 2005 11:11:32 GMT -5
True. I guess after several years of Buffy The Vampire Slayer and Angel, I'm pretty jaded now. For having ridden that Wagnerian roller coaster; chuckle! It taught me patience - it's not over till it's over. That however, doesn't mean one can't vent! Chuckle! (I mean, that's half the fun of even BEING in a forum! LOL!) Great observations Trish and Marie! Seriously, if Rene Balcer or ol' Dicky Wolf were lerking out there reading our posts, I think they'd be in stitches!! I agree Marie, I'm a former Buffy-ier and Angel watcher, and the morose, dark-side of characters and relationships can make you pretty jaded. I read in a behind-the-scenes book about some different TV shows like CSI and L&O--that the sprinklings of little ti-bits of personal info--the line he/she said that made you do a double-take and go "Whoa!"--the side-long glances or innuendo about personal lives--all of that is drizzeled into shows like CI to make our (the fans) minds go off in a million different directions. The writers like letting the audience make their own inferences and use their own imaginations, cause they'd come up with way better stuff than could ever be explained in the show. Plus, the creator or writers simply don't want to explore that side of a character (ie Goren), it wouldn't fit the show. With the exception of Stabler and SVU, Wolf has never let the shows get too personal, opting instead to rev-up the speculator machines in the fan boards with little bits of personal info or insights with in few and far between eps. And personally, I like it that way. Its crime drama, not soap drama. I want to see hints of Goren's past or private personality (ex. when Nicole comes in. Shes a great villian to bring out another side of Goren...his vulnerabilities) but I NEVER want to see him dating, chatting with Deakins about getting laid, or have a surprise like his mom escaped the mental home and was commng to visit him. (those are just examples...*smirk*) Don't let it take over the show, just spark my imagination so I can come on this chat board and discuss it with others who caught the same sparks, ya know? As for what those Housewives are doing. Well, they're having sex...and lots of it. Hmmm...don't think I want to watch disgustingly georgious women having mind-blowing sex with disgustingly georgious men. I'd flip over and find something to hold me over until 'Crossing Jordan" comes on.
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Post by missymagoshi on Jan 28, 2005 11:26:55 GMT -5
Surfing channels last night I stumbled upon Without a Trace, so I watched it. Big mistake. I couldn't believe the caliber of writing on that show. Supposedly it's a show about FBI in NYC? Ha! It is so clearly LA. Uh, the palm trees, the outdoor cafes, the slick looking people. None of the actors feel like NY'rs. And the way they conduct investigations! They don't even call witnesses, witnesses! They say things like we spoke to some people who saw you. Ya, very professional, guys. When I think about how good, truly good, CI is I am blown away. We can dissect this season all we want here, but it is heads and shoulders above these other shows.
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Post by Marie on Jan 28, 2005 12:40:42 GMT -5
Thats neato Marie that your job is in animation. I've always wondered what that was like, I didn't know some got paid by piece work for each frame you ink. I've read that Vince, even with his quiet and sometimes shy tone of voice--can get very vocal when shooting scenes about his ideas and thoughts for his and other's characters. I don't think there is anything wrong with that, some of the best lines are ad-libed and not in the script. Boy, do I wish I could be a fly on the wall on the CI set though...would that not be awesome! Re: Animation. Yup! Inkers & painters got paid "per cel" or frame. Animators got paid in terms of "footage" drawn; note: where I worked it wasn't unusual for an Animator to also Direct the commercial or whatever. So he'd get a flat rate fee for that, in addition. I've heard that too; about D'Onofrio not being afraid to poke his nose in. Chuckle! But hey, if they're willing to listen... smile. And speaking for myself, I know 50% of what I got to do, owed to pushing for it. Otherwise, it's not like a Director or Producer is going to stop and consult the inker in advance of making a decision. That they were open to feedback & suggestions moreover, is actually rare. As it does NOT work that way over at Disney, for example. But then they're a huge company, more corporate-like. I'd worked for an smaller, Independant Studio. Things were much more relaxed. Anyway, it sounds like the main objective over at CI is producing a quality show. So if someone's got a better idea, they're open to hearing it. And if they like it, they go with it. I just wish I knew how often that happens! It could help settle the matter regarding the direction of season 4! Yes, engaging Goren was Balcer's idea - but did he plan for it to play itself out each week the way that it has..? Or is that evidence of D'Onofrio's influence; ie: creative imput? Hmm! Why those sneaky %$#!@.....! Chuckle!!! Playing games with us, are they? Well if you're reading this Rene Balcer, I've only got one thing to say to YOU, Mr. Sneaky Boots! Thank-you. Grin. Keep on moving those puzzle pieces.
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Post by missymagoshi on Jan 28, 2005 12:48:44 GMT -5
Chuckle!!! Playing games with us, are they? Well if you're reading this Rene Balcer, I've only got one thing to say to YOU, Mr. Sneaky Boots! Thank-you. Grin. Keep on moving those puzzle pieces. Mr. Sneaky Boots. Nice one. Yes, Mr. SB, if you are reading this keep doing what you're doing and thank you!
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